2463 réponses à ce sujet

[SandTrout]

Saphra Deden wrote...

How about you kiss my ass instead?

I'm not digging through this thread just to satisfy you. I don't need to anyway. My stance is perfectly clear in my original post. Go and read it. (again)

It's obviously clear enough to prevent people from misunderstanding.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

SandTrout wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

How about you kiss my ass instead?

I'm not digging through this thread just to satisfy you. I don't need to anyway. My stance is perfectly clear in my original post. Go and read it. (again)

It's obviously clear enough to prevent people from misunderstanding.

I think you misunderestimate the power of the OP.

[TuringPoint]

Not sure Saphra is disagreeing, perhaps just sticking to a certain position.

[Sisterofshane]

SandTrout wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

SandTrout wrote...

Humor me,

No.

Then you have 2 options. Quote to me, or point out in the thread, where you have clarified where you stand on eezo causing extinction, or you must concede the point.

You ask for evidence, and she basically gives you the finger.

And yet she has the gall to ask us for evidence to support claims we have produced evidence for in the past:

Saphra Deden wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

Eingana is only one quarter of a percent (.25%) of the entire known galaxy.

It's not a very solid foundation upon which to base a scenario upon.

Well find me evidence that disputes it.

Just can't reason with somebody who wears such big blinders on their face.

[vehzeel]

From an in-game perspective, the chances for success against the Reapers are slim. We, as players, however, know that they won't make a game you can't beat (except Saphra). So my guess is that the last boss will be some sort of arch-Reaper. This guy controls/keeps the other Reapers indoctrinated. When defeated, the other Reapers are free and the cycle of invasions is over.

[TuringPoint]

Yeah, I have tried to point out that her position is narrow. Could be a choice though. Maybe it's not worth arguing, or trying to argue with that?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Alocormin wrote...
Whatever our choice, if we do not defeat and defy the Reapers, we will cease to exist.  

The Reaper will exist.  It will not be human.  It is not a bad existence to be a Reaper, but what I am asking is why you think of it as "becoming" Reapers?  You seem to think we would continue to exist, and I do not think so.  That seems to be our disagreement, and why I am interested in asking you questions about your decision.   I do not have any way to judge absolute right in this instance, and don't see my existence as preference, but as something personal.

I believe we do not have enough info to know whether humanity will cease to exist entirely or not. Reapers do not identify themselves as such, it's a label they seem amused by. If we take Sovereign at his word, they are each an independent nation. Emphasis on the word "nation", I always thought it was peculiar of him to use that word. Nation implies a people, with its own identity, culture, language..etc So it's quite possible that each reaper is in fact unique in its own way. Perhaps it was Sovereign who named himself Nazara, and no one decided to name him that (Nazara sounds like a Semitic name btw, with the root of nzr, which is sight, which is appropriate to his role as a sentinel).

If humanity can become a uniquely "human" Reaper, I think that's the continuation of our existence.

But I do not know, we do not have sufficient info.

If you don't want to justify your 'preference,' that's fine.  Not really what I'm asking for anyway.

I see no need to justify it, but I already explained it. I'd much rather have humanity ascend and become something greater or something else, than have it doomed to an existence of irreversable weakness. That is assuming it comes down to that in the first place.

[SandTrout]

Saphra Deden wrote...

SandTrout wrote...

It's obviously clear enough to prevent people from misunderstanding.

People on the BSN misunderstand a lot of things. Not the brightest bulbs in the box, if you get my meaning.

Quite, you're a case study in application of the expression. You constantly insult your audience, yet you feel compeled to stick around for some reason. You have no respect for BSN, yet you insist on being a part of it. I'm not a shrink, but it seems to me like there may have been some leftover parts when you were assebled.

Also, asking for evidence that disputes my position is not me "having blinders on my face" it is me being reasonable. If you have evidence that massive eezo exposures aren't bad then show it to me.

I'd settle for evidence that Eingana scale ecological damage would reasonably cause the extinction of the human species.

[SandTrout]

Saphra Deden wrote...

SandTrout wrote...

I'd settle for evidence that Eingana scale ecological damage would reasonably cause the extinction of the human species.

Well, good luck with that.

So we agree that eezo contamination is not likely to cause the extinction of the species?

[TuringPoint]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Alocormin wrote...

If you don't want to justify your 'preference,' that's fine.  Not really what I'm asking for anyway.

I see no need to justify it, but I already explained it. I'd much rather have humanity ascend and become something greater or something else, than have it doomed to an existence of irreversable weakness. That is assuming it comes down to that in the first place.

Right.  

And I believe we won't be able to keep what we are if we become Reapers.  None of the culture, purpose, or reality of my existence as a human being will continue.  That's all.  You can believe otherwise, I understand that.  In a way I can appreciate what the Reapers are, have a healthy respect for their essential existence.

It may seem like I'm assigning "intrinsic" or "absolute" value, I just want you to understand that's not the case.  At least, no more than you are

[KnightofPhoenix]

Alocormin wrote...
And I believe we won't be able to keep what we are if we become Reapers.  None of the culture, purpose, or reality of my existence as a human being will continue.  That's all.  You can believe otherwise, I understand that.  In a way I can appreciate what the Reapers are, have a healthy respect for their essential existence.

We'll see if more info is revealed on the Reapers. I hope so.
In fact, this discussion made me realize that they are interesting afterall. Thanks

[Fayfel]

I believe the information your looking for is already in ME2 KnightofPhoenix. Speak to Legion about the geth's future and tell it you think the geth are trying to become a Reaper, to which Legion will respond that the Reapers are more likely your own future. More to the point however, if you do this before the suicide mission, you can have the following exchange with Legion afterwards.

"Shepard - You told me the Reapers were more my future than yours. You knew what they were, didn't you?

Legion - Transcended flesh. Billions of organic minds, uploaded and conjoined within immortal machine bodies. "Each a nation". We did not "know." It was one hypothesis among many. When Nazara corrupted the heretics, we touched its minds. We perceived they were different from ours, but could not tell how."

[stysiaq]

Alocormin wrote...

My thoughts are now elaborated in the above post. In more concise form than they were going to be originally.

Extinction is natural. Extinction and continuation of the Reaper legacy somehow doesn't seem to me to be natural. It defies nature. That is what Reapers do.

I believe that humanity is a biological thing. Being human is existential as well.  I believe in my own existence and my existence is important to me.  I do not believe I could continue to exist as a reaper, being a biologically evolved being.   Nor would my culture continue to exist, or any manner of legacy that I had created.  It would only be the Reaper legacy, to exploit and exterminate for the rest of time.

My thoughts:

Extinction is natural.

You can't deny it.

But Reapers extinction cycle is millions years old. Probably older (the derelict reaper is 37 million years old, we don't have info on older times).

So, what I'm trying to say, if something occurs every 50k years for several millions, or even billions of years, then... is that not natural? Are'nt we actually opposing the nature of the [mass effect] universe by resisting? Each moment I think about it, I tend to agree with humanity's fate (or simply this organic lifes generations fate) and their destruction. ('salvation through destruction')

Try to look for a moment at the bigger picture: the organic life, all the species in the universe and their homeworld as a single organism. The body is old and it is necessary to make room for the new, younger generation. We observe it in our lifes as well - older people pass away, new are born, the wheel keeps on turnin.

Why should we end that cycle? Why prevent other species from rising, discovering the Citadel, learning the space travel mechanisms? Should this generation of organic life be the final one?

Of course, single human mind can't accept it. We look at life from our, personal, single-minded viewpoint. We identify life with ours heartbeat, our families, our health. We can accept death more easily when we are terminally ill, or old, but it is impossible, when we are still young and crave for living. We don't 'feel' the feelings of the whole galactic organic civilization. We are individuals. It's sililar to what Legion tells you - you can't truly understand him, because there is no "him", the Legion "are".

And the galactic civilization is old and sick, and the time has come for it to end. The Reapers are the natural cause of death in the universe, and we cannot perceive it that way - for us death is again an individual experience, caused by age and diseases, by 'natural' or rather 'organic' causes. Humanity won't ever accept, that their fate is to die due to machines.

Reapers being (even partially) synthetic is another problem. I'm sure that if the Reapers were fully organic beings able to survive in outer (and dark) space, they would resemble all the human gods that are established in human culture. The death from their hands would seem more 'natural' just because they would look 'natural' to us.

With Reapers being partially synthetic,we cannot accept it. We don't see, that the nature of the universe is both organic and synthetic. They are the nature of this universe - we are just half natural. The geth are also half natural only.

We see the Reapers as synthetics only, and this is our biggest mistake, preventing us from truly understanding.

I think, that the Cycle is ME universes version of evolution, but on a bigger scale. Which makes us the best galactic civilization so far. But not the final one.

These are only my assumptions.
If there will be an option to surrender, I'll do it with one of my Sheps.

[KnightofPhoenix]

@ Amakiir
Interesting. So they seemingly are closer to organics than they are to AIs.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 août 2011 - 10:52 .

[SandTrout]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Which is certainly a better alternative to total extinction.

Which will not be caused by Eezo contamination.

[SandTrout]

Saphra Deden wrote...

SandTrout wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Which is certainly a better alternative to total extinction.

Which will not be caused by Eezo contamination.

Of-course not, I never said it would be. Why are you even bringing this up (for like the fourth or fifth time now)?

What point are you trying to prove? I never said eezo would exterminate the human race so I don't see how this is relevant. By bringing this up and hinging on it you are wasting your time, and mine.

Thank you for finally giving a clear answer so I can move onto the real point.

If Eezo is not an extinction threat, then why is it a justification for surrendering to the Reapers?

[Janchito]

Well I think that there while be a weapon that diasbles Reaprs whiteout destroying them.

Modifié par Janchito, 15 août 2011 - 11:05 .

[SandTrout]

I included the eezo argument because it is just one more layer of hopelessness we're up against. I point it out because it means that even if by some miracle we do defeat the Reapers we'll be left with a ruined world and a weakened humanity. We will no longer be a giant.

Other species will master Reaper technology and consume themselves with it, and then us. We'll be at their mercy.

Ok, now we're actually discussing something rather than evading it.

Oddly enough, your use of the term 'decimated' is actually probably technically accurate. Decimations were when a Roman legion retreated from the field of battle, and the officers killed 1/10 legionaries. This is actually close to reasonably expected mortality rates among newborns in a post-Reaper earth. all we know with any certainty, is that it will be < 40%, though it could be anywhere from 1-40%, and likely between 20-30%.

This is also only going to occur in the first 2-3 generations of post-Reaper Earth due to those without the necessary trait not reproducing, while those that do exhibit the trait do. This will also only represent a slight slump in the overall human population curve due to families 'trying again' to make a family for themselves. Long term, we are looking at a dramatic spike in humans with biotic potential up to about 10% of the total population. Current actual human biotic population is unknown, but based on the rate of biotics in exposed fetuses, and relatively low rate of exposure, we can assume it is likely below 1%.

None of this prevents humanity from continuing to research Reaper technology like everyone else. Other nations are also going to rebuilding (Palaven has fallen, IIRC), so it isn't like they're going to get out unscathed.

Overall, the effect to the human population from the aftermath is likely to be negligible, especially when compared to the silver lining of the number of human biotics likely increasing by a factor of 10 over the space of a single generation. Human populations are not likely to decline after the war, so then comes the point of casualty rates during the war.

Estimates of our chances against the Reapers will vary widely because there are many unknowns including: Standing fleet numbers of the various nations, production capacity, effects of technological advancements since the BotC, individual Reaper strength, actual Reaper numbers, and possible tactical innovations including some sort of device that might prevent FTL escape by the Reapers (already have a rudimentary theory on function and application, let me know if you want details). There are too many unknowns to call it completely hopeless.

Your worst case scenario is a worst case scenario, but it is not the only scenario.

Modifié par SandTrout, 15 août 2011 - 11:38 .

[SandTrout]

You are basing your numbers off of the eezo exposures that created modern human biotics. Those exposures were in levels much less than what we may see on Earth in the aftermath of the battle. Higher concentrations of eezo will likely exasperate the negative effects but not produce any higher percentages of biotics in humans.

We don't know how the increased contamination tracks with birth defect or biotic rates. I am operating off of the only available data. Your counter argument is an assumption.

Two or three human generations may indeed see a decrease in the numbers of people being killed by eezo exposure, but that will because most of those susceptible will be dead. If that is a significant enough proportion of the population then the damage will have been done. Earth's real-estate value will have plumetted as will its economic might.

Current available data shows < 40% of prenatal exposures result in any negative effect. There is no known effect on developed humans. Damage will be done, but it will not be nearly as catastrophic as you seem to think. Prepubescent mortality rates were higher than that in Europe during the middle ages. People just had more kids to make up the difference. I see no reason why that pattern would not be repeated.

A weaker human economy is what will make it harder for us to master Reaper tech. Everyone else will have fared better by virtue of the fact they have much larger populations and aren't as dependent on a single large world like humanity is. Their economies are more stable and robust. They'll have the wealth necessary to truly delve into Reaper tech. Humantiy will lack this and will lag behind, even with the Collector base.

We're not the only ones getting hit, and the possibility of a rebound after reconstruction is actually likely (Germany, post WW1), especially when the other nations are also going to be doing similar rebuilding.

Bull**** pulled right out of your ass.

Are any of my numbers incorrect? the % of birth defects are drawn directly from the codex.

Increased concentrations of eezo are not goign to make the effects of cantmination better, they will make it WORSE!

Probably, but how much worse? Based on my numbers, even liberal estimates of eezo related miscarriage and infant mortality rates would not be crippling.

The increased number of human boitics isn't going to help us much. Biotics are just solders. Useful, but not worth this huge cost.

Agreed that it is not worth the price. You will not see me advocating for intentional eezo exposures on colonies. That doesn't negate the fact that it is a mitigating factor in the overall effect of the inevitable eezo contamination of Earth. Note my language. It is a mitigating factor, not a negating one.