2463 réponses à ce sujet

[robarcool]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

So what happens when we save the Earth and beat the reapers?

We rebuild, we reverse engineer Reaper tech, we usher in technological singularity.

But the question is, how will you beat them?

[robarcool]

Saphra Deden wrote...

robarcool wrote...

But the question is, how will you beat them?

I don't know. Based on what we know now I don't think we can. I'm hoping the Collector base reveals something useful about them that we can exploit. As long as Cerberus doesn't turn around and join the Reapers out of the blue we should be fine...

Well Cerberus will be a full blown enemy. That has been confirmed at gamescom. I destryoed the collector base, so that option is out. I will see how it pans out.

[Abirn]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

So what happens when we save the Earth and beat the reapers?

Earth?  Then I'm going to come here and post a long rant about how the game should have been about saving the galaxy instead of saving earth.  I don't want the whole game to revolve around the planet earth, that is just stupid.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Obviously,we open all the mass relays we find the planet of Endless Illusion,and Dann of Thursday will kill all the reapers.


Of course I'm the only one who has ever watched that show,so this reference will be lost.

Modifié par Humanoid_Typhoon, 25 août 2011 - 02:19 .

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Abirn wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

So what happens when we save the Earth and beat the reapers?

Earth?  Then I'm going to come here and post a long rant about how the game should have been about saving the galaxy instead of saving earth.  I don't want the whole game to revolve around the planet earth, that is just stupid.

Yeah that is all fine and dandy,but this thread pertains to Earth...so...yeah.

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Abirn wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

So what happens when we save the Earth and beat the reapers?

Earth?  Then I'm going to come here and post a long rant about how the game should have been about saving the galaxy instead of saving earth.  I don't want the whole game to revolve around the planet earth, that is just stupid.

Yeah that is all fine and dandy,but this thread pertains to Earth...so...yeah.

That and we know it isn't just about saving Earth. The planet where we've seen Shepard getting chased by that Reaper am pretty sure isn't Earth. Turians have moved from Palavan to a nearby moon because of Reaper invasion, so erm it isn't just about saving Earth, the devs have already confirmed this.

[daigakuinsei]

Saphra Deden wrote...

It has occurred to me that humanity at least is doomed no matter what we do. I would like to point you all towards a specific planet... it was... ah yes, this one.

Mass Effect Wikia says...

Eingana is a hot, beautiful, and deadly world, covered with the debris of ancient starships. Approximately 127,000 years ago, a series of battles were fought over it by two organic species, the thoi'han and the inusannon. Although no records of the conflict remain, most historians agree that both races wanted to colonize Eingana, and neither were willing to share. The two lost hundreds of ships in a series of battles over Eingana and its moon, Barraiya; many of these were eventually pulled in by the planet's gravity well.

The mass effect drive cores of these ships broke apart, dumping refined element zero over large stretches of the landscape. This poisoned the environment and a wave of extinctions followed. Many of the animal species that remained showed a tendancy to develop biotic powers. As the ecology of Eingana is energetic and aggressive, this makes colonization a deadly peril.

The implications should be obvious, but I suspect I need to spell it out anyway.

Reapers contain massive drive cores of their own, and what fuels drive cores? Element zero, of-course.

So what will happen if we destroy hundreds of Reapers on or in orbit over the Earth? The same thing that happened on Eingana will happen on Earth. Refined element zero will poison the environment and wipe out much of the life there. The effect will likely be much worse on Earth because Reapers likely carry drive cores much larger than anything the races fighting over Eingana used, meaning a hell of a lot more eezo is going to rain down on the planet.

Earth will become a wasteland with most species on land and in the water dead, including plants. This means
we won't be able to grow any edible food there. If the planet can't support life it certainly can't support industry and with that goes the human economy and along with it our military standing.

Someday the Earth will probably recover, but that could take tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands of years. It might even take many millionsof years depending on how catastrohpic and total the die-off is. Humans
can't afford to wait around that long.

Obviously, Earth isn't the only world in peril.



WE CAN'T HOPE TO BEAT THE REAPERS IN A WAR


Let me give you a run down of why.

Firstly, as the codex will tell you, in space-borne combat the combatants can flee at any time. If at any point one side feels it is losing the battle it can turn tale and run away. It can do this infinitely. This is especially true of the Reapers.

Codex: Space Combat

Most ship-to-ship engagements are skirmishes between patrol vessels of cruiser weight and below, with dreadnoughts and carriers only deployed in full-scale fleet actions. Battles in open space are short and often inconclusive, as the weaker opponent generally disengages.

Once a ship enters FTL flight the combat is effectively over; there are no sensors capable of tracking them, or weapons capable of damaging them. The only way to guarantee an enemy will stand and fight is to attack a location they have a vested interest in, such as a settled world or a strategically-important mass relay.

There is a key difference between us and the Reapers though. Any enemy we fight will, somewhere, have some sort of planet/moon/asteroid based assets to defend. Thus we can assault their planets to earn a victory if we must.

With the Reapers however this is not so. They have no planetary assets that they must defend. The Reapers are self sufficient, space-borne intelligences. It has been pointed out that they want the Earth and while this may be true, I guarantee you that they want their own continual survival even more than that. Assuming we successfully rally the galaxy to come and get their people killed to save our planet this offers no promise of victory against the Reapers. As soon as they realize the battle is turning against them (assuming that it does and that they don't just
obliterate every fleet in the galaxy), the Reapers will flee.

They'll fly up, abandon the Earth, and disappear in to the vast Milky Way galaxy. Maybe some aliens will get smart and blow up the Charon relay, isolating the Reapers in our cluster. This might buy the galaxy some time, but they'll never have any hope of winning the war.

The thing is, the Reapers don't need to capture any planets besides Earth. All they have to do is drop in out of FTL near a planet and bombard all of its inhabitants into ash. They can do this again and again on every populated world in the galaxy until none remain.

Whether it takes decades or centuries in time every race in the galaxy will be exterminated and any human survivors will be cultivated into a new Reaper.

The only remote possibility of victory is if we wait until all of the Reapers are busy harvesting Earth and then blow up the Charon relay. Theoreticaly the shockwave would overtake the Earth and destroy all of the Reapers before they could flee. After all, it is safeto assume that shockwave is travelling at the speed of light, or near it, or even faster than that. There is no way to avoid it unless you know ahead of time that it is coming. The Reapers could do this. If they have quantum entaglement devices installed in the relays (or at least in the Charon relay) they would know immediately that it had been destroyed and may be able to flee to avoid the shockwave. This is quite likely considering how trivial and widespread quantum entaglement technology is for the Reapers. The Collectors and Saren were riddled with it and the implants 'given' to Paul Grayson were linked to the Reapers in this way.

Now, assuming this isn't necessary and Shepard discovers some miracle that can defeat the Reapers, it will still be a hollow victory in some respects. The inescapable fact is that we will ALL BE CONSUMED BY REAPER TECH ANYWAY! Their technology will not vanish, it will instead be laying around for everyone in the galaxy to scoop up and reverse engineer. Terrifying things like indoctrination and quantum-entaglement devices will proliferate throughout the galaxy. One way or another, we will all become Reapers.


WE MUST JOIN WITH THE REAPERS

It is our (humanity's) only hope. When we lose Earth we will lose most of humanity, leaving too few humans to build a new Reaper with. We'll be stranded in a hostile and callous galaxy that will be eagerly working to reverse engineer Reaper technologies and their much larger and healtheir economies will ensure that they succeed long before we do (even with the Collector base). As they unlock the secrets of Reaper tech they will join in union with it
and change... becoming unrecognizable to us and at that point they may do whatever they want with us. Our fate will be beyond our control.

Joining with the Reapers now, while they can still create a Reaper for us, is our only hope. It is a not a fate I'd have ever wished for humanity, but it is one we can choose for ourselves, even if reluctantly, as opposed to one left up to outsiders. I think the Illusive Man and Cerberus understand this and this is why they have decided to join the Reapers.

The war was lost as soon as the Reapers descended upon the cradle of our species.

However we will survive, we will continue. Our legacy will not end.

Humanity will be reborn, unified at last in a single form, many voices, but a single mind, a single will.

A nation, sovereign, free of all weakness, and... eternal.

Sorry, I don't really like people.  The last thing I want to do is spend eternity listening to everyone else in an ugly spaceship.

[RAF1940]

nhsk wrote...

Cool story bro

"Today we celebrate our independence day" (im not from america)

*crazy guitar solo*

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Abirn wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

So what happens when we save the Earth and beat the reapers?

Earth?  Then I'm going to come here and post a long rant about how the game should have been about saving the galaxy instead of saving earth.  I don't want the whole game to revolve around the planet earth, that is just stupid.

Yeah that is all fine and dandy,but this thread pertains to Earth...so...yeah.

That and we know it isn't just about saving Earth. The planet where we've seen Shepard getting chased by that Reaper am pretty sure isn't Earth. Turians have moved from Palavan to a nearby moon because of Reaper invasion, so erm it isn't just about saving Earth, the devs have already confirmed this.

yes,but....this thread,not the game,is about Earth,hence the title.

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Abirn wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

So what happens when we save the Earth and beat the reapers?

Earth?  Then I'm going to come here and post a long rant about how the game should have been about saving the galaxy instead of saving earth.  I don't want the whole game to revolve around the planet earth, that is just stupid.

Yeah that is all fine and dandy,but this thread pertains to Earth...so...yeah.

That and we know it isn't just about saving Earth. The planet where we've seen Shepard getting chased by that Reaper am pretty sure isn't Earth. Turians have moved from Palavan to a nearby moon because of Reaper invasion, so erm it isn't just about saving Earth, the devs have already confirmed this.

yes,but....this thread,not the game,is about Earth,hence the title.

Ok on topic...

Of COURSE we can save Earth we're Commander Shepard, Flash Gordon has got nothing on us, for one thing he had Brian Blessed helping him, we don't need Brian Blessed to help save Earth.

We can beat the Reapers and we will beat them and save Earth and the Girl and be home in time for tea

[Parion]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Which begs the problem. If they can't see you, you can't see them either.
If you are a light week out, how will you know where they are?

Seeing as they're attacking the inhabited planet/s in the system, I would say looking for them "in orbit" is a good bet. Preliminary targeting can occur by targeting the planets and/or relays, with QE equiped scouts, stealthed com buoys ect. used to provide fine-tuning.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
A degree is a helluva lot.
It's not merealy matter of calculating a course - you have to have accurate data, and your ships has to be manuverable enough to make such minute changes in a matter of miliseconds. Not that in space travel, this is not a requirement since you travel to rather static and predictable places (planets, stations) and you're genneraly trying NOT to hit them, not the other way around.

Presumably any ship in the sky needs to be capable of calculating flightpaths of surrounding traffic, especially in the environments surrounding the space stations and planets that cargo ships would frequent.
I'm not saying that cargo ships will be anywhere near as agile as combat craft, but I would be truly shocked if they weren't capable of at least that maneuverable/accurate.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Even with the relays closed, military bases are bound to have a significant military force present.
You don't really need to gather all the ships in the universe to attmpt a ramming tactic anyway, so your point is moot.

The thing about a significant military force is that they're more likely to try shooting the reapers than ramming them, and military craft are designed to be maneuverable, which means comparitavely low mass.
I take your point about the ships numbers though. This requires more thought.
Hmmmmm.

Saphra Deden wrote...
Look up transhumanism sometime.

I'm a transhumanist, and I still think that it's a terrible idea, for two main reasons.
1) They are attempting to convert us against our will. Not only does this violate self-ownership, it implies that their position is too weak to be supported through dialogue.
2) I'm not sure a human reaper is a "decendent" of humanity, rather something made out of humans.
A comparison: A Human is to a Posthuman is to a Human-Reaper as a Monkey is to a Human is to a Computer-Made-Out-Of-Carved-Monkey-Bones.

Modifié par Parion, 25 août 2011 - 09:09 .

[SandTrout]

robarcool wrote...

But the question is, how will you beat them?

Through a long, brutal, costly war of attrition. Casualties required to take down a single Reaper are of no consiquence as we can always replenish our ranks. The Reapers cannot.

We lost 8 cruisers and an unknown number of frigates and fighters in order to take down Sovereign. Some would call those losses crippling. I call them acceptable, in the face of complete annihilation.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Parion wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Which begs the problem. If they can't see you, you can't see them either.
If you are a light week out, how will you know where they are?

Seeing as they're attacking the inhabited planet/s in the system, I would say looking for them "in orbit" is a good bet. Preliminary targeting can occur by targeting the planets and/or relays, with QE equiped scouts, stealthed com buoys ect. used to provide fine-tuning.

Stealth doesn't seem to work on reapers for one.
For another, "somewhere in orbit" is about as braod as youcna get. You're tring to hit them, remember?
Also, it's impossible to hide a ship in space (except for Normandy, and it cna only stay hidden for long) and ships can be detected at vast distances if they just sit and wait.

I really can't see how you could hope to catch the reapers by surprise. I really don't see how you can even get your fleet into the system at all (unless its' already tehre).

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
A degree is a helluva lot.
It's not merealy matter of calculating a course - you have to have accurate data, and your ships has to be manuverable enough to make such minute changes in a matter of miliseconds. Not that in space travel, this is not a requirement since you travel to rather static and predictable places (planets, stations) and you're genneraly trying NOT to hit them, not the other way around.

Presumably any ship in the sky needs to be capable of calculating flightpaths of surrounding traffic, especially in the environments surrounding the space stations and planets that cargo ships would frequent.
I'm not saying that cargo ships will be anywhere near as agile as combat craft, but I would be truly shocked if they weren't capable of at least that maneuverable/accurate.

Changing course while in FTL is a redicolously high level of manouverabiltiy. Remember, you need to correct your course by 0,0002 degrees in a milisecond, or you miss the target by a lightyear.

[Lotion Soronarr]

SandTrout wrote...

robarcool wrote...

But the question is, how will you beat them?

Through a long, brutal, costly war of attrition. Casualties required to take down a single Reaper are of no consiquence as we can always replenish our ranks. The Reapers cannot.

We lost 8 cruisers and an unknown number of frigates and fighters in order to take down Sovereign. Some would call those losses crippling. I call them acceptable, in the face of complete annihilation.

You cannot replenish your ranks. Where do you get this silly idea?

Warships don't grow on trees. It takes resources, time and facilities.
The reapers are gonna be blowing up your faciliteis (shipyards). They're gonna by taking your resources and blasting your supply convoys from the skies.
They're gonna have indoctrinated sleepers sabotaging your efforts.

How many cruisers do you think the SA can build in a year - assuming optiomal efficiency and resoruces?

Sovereign destroyed 8. IN 2 MINUTES. While not moving or evading. And fighting off 2 fleets.

Once the reapers show up, there's gonna be thousands. If every reaper takes out only 1 cruiser, that's thousands of cruisers. How many years will it take for you to replace those?

[Typhrus]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Obviously, we open all the mass relays we find the planet of Endless Illusion, and Dann of Thursday will kill all the reapers.


Of course I'm the only one who has ever watched that show, so this reference will be lost.

Actually I got the reference, Gun X Sword.

Or We go back in time and find Haruhi who will act as "god" and just make the reapers disappear

Anyway while I haven't read the entire thread, While I suspect that during the events of ME3 we'll get a McGuffin or deus ex machina like event that gives us our "silver bullet" so to speak, to defeat the Reapers. This may or may not weaken the experience, but knowing Bioware they'll attempt to do it decently with their story telling. Hiding behind a statistic doesn't necessarily mean you're right; sure 99% of the population is on Earth (as you've pointed out several times Sephra) that does not tell us how much are in colonies or even in spaceships and stations. That could add up to 500 people-1 million (and those are conservative estimates on my part) more humans. So while you may be correct that the majority of humanity is still wiped out, there is still enough to re-populate, without the risk of inbreeding (provided of course we DO beat the Reapers).

I'm one of those people that believes it is better to die fighting standing up, than to die on ones knees (as a slave?). Call it irrational, but I'd much rather see humans dead than be some part of some "machine god" that commits genocide. I consider it a fallacy (not that I'm right of course) to say that a human reaper would be "human", what characteristics of a reaper make it "human" per say? While I cannot really provide more than opinion or anecdotal evidence for this, it is still a reasonable enough question that needs defining.

Although probably more a nit-pick than anything else, but it is incredibly infuriating to see you shoot down ideas as "stupid" or idiotic without really discussing them. Nothing in a debate, whether academic or trivial is below rebuttal, if you feel as if your point is not being made, then clarify in another way. This is opposed to petty insults that both sides of the argument are at fault for. One also appears to be less academic when you even refuse to humour someone who asks for clarification, doing so is not a sign of weakness, nor a lack of intellect on either party.

Well enough about me rambling on, I'll just go back to lurking.

[SandTrout]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

You cannot replenish your ranks. Where do you get this silly idea?

History of industrial war since Nepoleon's time.

Warships don't grow on trees. It takes resources, time and facilities.
The reapers are gonna be blowing up your faciliteis (shipyards). They're gonna by taking your resources and blasting your supply convoys from the skies.
They're gonna have indoctrinated sleepers sabotaging your efforts.

The Reapers cannot be everywhere at once, and as long as we can slow them down and protect enough vital production sites, we can make more ships. The same cannot be said for the Reapers. Attacks on supply lines and industrial centers are a matter of strategic concern, but they are the same concerns that have existed for centuries.

How many cruisers do you think the SA can build in a year - assuming optiomal efficiency and resoruces?

Sovereign destroyed 8. IN 2 MINUTES. While not moving or evading. And fighting off 2 fleets.

Once the reapers show up, there's gonna be thousands. If every reaper takes out only 1 cruiser, that's thousands of cruisers. How many years will it take for you to replace those?

We could likely produce several hundred cruisers a year with a war economy, and just the Alliance. The Turrians, Salarians, and Asari, due to their more expansive economies, could likely produce in the range of thousands annualy.

Additionally, technology has advanced since the BotC, with weapons such as the Thanix and Javalin vastly improving the overall output of any ships produced.

Edit: Also, Sovereign had a Geth fleet backing it up, as well.

Modifié par SandTrout, 25 août 2011 - 10:36 .

[SkittlesKat96]

Saphra Deden wrote...

robarcool wrote...

But the question is, how will you beat them?

I don't know. Based on what we know now I don't think we can. I'm hoping the Collector base reveals something useful about them that we can exploit. As long as Cerberus doesn't turn around and join the Reapers out of the blue we should be fine...

Like I said in another thread I still have a mad theory in my head that maybe with the collector station we will be able to use genetic material of people to create Reapers to fight the other Reapers. It sounds crazy but maybe the Keepers know the secrets to Reaper engineering and creation and the Keepers come off as being great in number and extremely highly productive. As to how the newly created Reapers would not work with the other Reapers I'm not so sure.

[SandTrout]

SkittlesKat96 wrote...

Like I said in another thread I still have a mad theory in my head that maybe with the collector station we will be able to use genetic material of people to create Reapers to fight the other Reapers. It sounds crazy but maybe the Keepers know the secrets to Reaper engineering and creation and the Keepers come off as being great in number and extremely highly productive. As to how the newly created Reapers would not work with the other Reapers I'm not so sure.

Well, I agree that it is an insane theory, because it hardly seems necessary to create actuall reapers when comparable benefits could be gained with less cost by simply reverse-engineering weapons and shields.

[Seboist]

I wouldn't be surprised if in ME3 one of the way(s) to defeat them is to taking control of some of the Reapers to fight the others.

[Lotion Soronarr]

SandTrout wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

You cannot replenish your ranks. Where do you get this silly idea?

History of industrial war since Nepoleon's time.

This is war in space. A whole nother ball of wax.
You are wrong in your assesment here.

Warships don't grow on trees. It takes resources, time and facilities.
The reapers are gonna be blowing up your faciliteis (shipyards). They're gonna by taking your resources and blasting your supply convoys from the skies.
They're gonna have indoctrinated sleepers sabotaging your efforts.

The Reapers cannot be everywhere at once, and as long as we can slow them down and protect enough vital production sites, we can make more ships. The same cannot be said for the Reapers. Attacks on supply lines and industrial centers are a matter of strategic concern, but they are the same concerns that have existed for centuries.

Except that unlike in wars on earth, starships are produced in space. In shipyards. Resources have to be delivered to those shipyards.
And both the transports and the shipyards are very vulnerable and easy to get to targets for the reapers. Why? Because reapers are faster and deadlier than your ships. They can afford to split their forces - since they can do guerila warfare better than you.

Remeber - they dont' have to destroy your ships imediately. If they make a bee-line for your shipyards, you're NOT gonna stop them.

How many cruisers do you think the SA can build in a year - assuming optiomal efficiency and resoruces?

Sovereign destroyed 8. IN 2 MINUTES. While not moving or evading. And fighting off 2 fleets.

Once the reapers show up, there's gonna be thousands. If every reaper takes out only 1 cruiser, that's thousands of cruisers. How many years will it take for you to replace those?

We could likely produce several hundred cruisers a year with a war economy, and just the Alliance. The Turrians, Salarians, and Asari, due to their more expansive economies, could likely produce in the range of thousands annualy.

I want to know where you get those numbers.
Starships are difficult to produce. A Nimitz carrier takes 2-3 years, and that is "only" 300 meters long and built on Earth. Space construction is more complex.

The idea that we can pump out thousands of starships a year is rediclous.
But even if we could, reapers can take out thousands A DAY.

How the hell do you think you can keep up?

[Alock1a]

OP has been indoctrinated.

[Capeo]

Kind of stupid to jump in on this because we all know there's going to be some kind of Reaper killing silver bullet in ME3 but here goes anyway.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Except that unlike in wars on earth, starships are produced in space. In shipyards. Resources have to be delivered to those shipyards.
And both the transports and the shipyards are very vulnerable and easy to get to targets for the reapers. Why? Because reapers are faster and deadlier than your ships. They can afford to split their forces - since they can do guerila warfare better than you.

Remeber - they dont' have to destroy your ships imediately. If they make a bee-line for your shipyards, you're NOT gonna stop them.

Without relays Reapers take just as long as any other ship to get anywhere.  The different races would have plenty of time to be replenishing ranks.  Reapers aren't unlimited in number.  If we knocked out relays we'd have tons of time.  We also have access, likely, to a cannon that can take Reapers out.  Sure, the ratio of Reapers killed to ships lost will be bad but, again, they aren't unlimited in number.  Plus we'll likely have most of the geth on our side this time.

I want to know where you get those numbers.
Starships are difficult to produce. A Nimitz carrier takes 2-3 years, and that is "only" 300 meters long and built on Earth. Space construction is more complex.

The idea that we can pump out thousands of starships a year is rediclous.
But even if we could, reapers can take out thousands A DAY.

How the hell do you think you can keep up?

You are very much underestimating a war economy.  When all of a scoiety's resources are turned to making weapons of war you can increase production ten fold easily in the real world and this is sci-fi.

Again, it's not going to matter though.  The Reapers won't be defeated by conventional warfare.  They'll be defeated by a plot point.

Modifié par Capeo, 25 août 2011 - 02:23 .

[SandTrout]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

This is war in space. A whole nother ball of wax.
You are wrong in your assesment here.

Baseless arguement. There is still territory to be controled, production to be destroyed, and limited resources in terms of troop deployment.

Except that unlike in wars on earth, starships are produced in space. In shipyards. Resources have to be delivered to those shipyards.

This is no different than Logistics on Earth. Shipyards are on the coasts (in orbit) and must have resources brought to them by trucks/trains (shuttles/freigters)

And both the transports and the shipyards are very vulnerable and easy to get to targets for the reapers. Why? Because reapers are faster and deadlier than your ships. They can afford to split their forces - since they can do guerila warfare better than you.

Due to the inability to intercept an FTL vessel, supply lines are actually less vulnerable in ME. The Reapers must target production sites, which means we know where to concetrate our defenses in order to deter direct action by the Reapers, who are likely unwilling to accept any losses.

Remeber - they dont' have to destroy your ships imediately. If they make a bee-line for your shipyards, you're NOT gonna stop them.

The Goal doesn't need to be to stop them in any particular place, the goal is to slow them down by forcing them to purge a system completely before moving on to the next, or we will simply retake the world and start building again.

I want to know where you get those numbers.
Starships are difficult to produce. A Nimitz carrier takes 2-3 years, and that is "only" 300 meters long and built on Earth. Space construction is more complex.

Space construction is more complex, but so are construction techniques. The numbers were based loosely on US WW2 production. Durring WW2, the US was producing over a hundred ships a year on top of the thousands of tanks and airplanes. That was one nation of a couple hundred million compared to the galactic community of trillions.

The idea that we can pump out thousands of starships a year is rediclous.

Not if you're willing to look at history and scale up accordingly. My estimates are actually on the conservative side once you start really looking at relative population numbers.

But even if we could, reapers can take out thousands A DAY.

How the hell do you think you can keep up?

By not allowing the Reapers to destory a thousand in a day. Refuse to give them a decisive engagement where they have the opportunity to eliminate all of our assets in short order. Only commit the fleets to fights where casualty ratio is likely to be within tollerable margins. Practice scorched-earth (destroying/disabling relays) in order to slow down the Reapers' progress.

Essentially, the same way that happened in Afghanistan and Vietnam, but with the advantage that the invaders numbers are far more finite than the Russian and American forces, respectively.

Modifié par SandTrout, 26 août 2011 - 03:32 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]SandTrout wrote...

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

This is war in space. A whole nother ball of wax.
You are wrong in your assesment here.[/quote] Baseless arguement. There is still territory to be controled, production to be destroyed, and limited resources in terms of troop deployment.[/quote]

Not baseless. Space is a different kind of battlefield. Reapers are a different kind of enemy.
They don't have territory to hold. They don't have a production line or populace to protect. Teh battle isn't faught far from your popualtion and production centers.


[quote]
[quote] Except that unlike in wars on earth, starships are produced in space. In shipyards. Resources have to be delivered to those shipyards. [/quote] This is no different than Logistics on Earth. Shipyards are on the coasts (in orbit) and must have resources brought to them by trucks/trains (shuttles/freigters)[/quote]

Except in space it's far more difficult to hide those same shipyards. It's far more difficult to protect those same shipyards.


[quote]
[quote]And both the transports and the shipyards are very vulnerable and easy to get to targets for the reapers. Why? Because reapers are faster and deadlier than your ships. They can afford to split their forces - since they can do guerila warfare better than you.[/quote] Due to the inability to intercept an FTL vessel, supply lines are actually less vulnerable in ME. The Reapers must target production sites, which means we know where to concetrate our defenses in order to deter direct action by the Reapers, who are likely unwilling to accept any losses.[/quote]

You're assuming all ships have FTL. If the resources are delivered from a planet into orbit, FTL is not necessary.
Also, consetrating your defenses might be even worse for you.
Go ahead, have a thousand ships protect your shipyard. Then a hunderd reapers will arrive and wipe out that shipyard and all of your defending ships.

Remember - they are both faster and more manouverable, better protected and more powerfull.


[quote]
[quote]Remeber - they dont' have to destroy your ships imediately. If they make a bee-line for your shipyards, you're NOT gonna stop them.[/quote] The Goal doesn't need to be to stop them in any particular place, the goal is to slow them down by forcing them to purge a system completely before moving on to the next, or we will simply retake the world and start building again.[/quote]

How do you force them to purge a system completely?
All they have to do is destroy all your stations and shipyards in the system (and possibly some ships) and move on. Maybe fire a few shots at a few key points on the planet to boot.
They can easily move on then - that planet won't be a threat to them anymore for some time - if at all.

You can re-take and start building again, but it will take you months, years for that planet to be of any tactical use again. And in months they can rape half hte galaxy.



[quote]
[quote]I want to know where you get those numbers.
Starships are difficult to produce. A Nimitz carrier takes 2-3 years, and that is "only" 300 meters long and built on Earth. Space construction is more complex.[/quote]

Space construction is more complex, but so are construction techniques. The numbers were based loosely on US WW2 production. Durring WW2, the US was producing over a hundred ships a year on top of the thousands of tanks and airplanes. That was one nation of a couple hundred million compared to the galactic community of trillions.[/quote]

And again, you're comparing building TANKS with building 500 meter long STARSHIPS. There is no comparison between them. Space shisp are expensive and very sophisticated. The Sapce Shuttle costs more than a carrier, and it's only a fraction of it's size. Furthermore, ships are build in space, not on groud.
Tanks will be of little help agaisnt the reapers. And the hunderds of ship the US produced during WW2? Most of those were small vessels, built from shipyards THAT WERE NEVER UNDER ATTACK AT ANY POINT.
The American home soil was completely safe. This is not the case with the war here.



[quote]
[quote]The idea that we can pump out thousands of starships a year is rediclous.[/quote]Not if you're willing to look at history and scale up accordingly. My estimates are actually on the conservative side once you start really looking at relative population numbers.[/quote]

Population numbers alone won't help you. Building starships is not the same as bulding a tank. As veichles become more and more complex, their production becomes more complex too.
I told you before, you cannot compare directly.



[quote]
[quote]But even if we could, reapers can take out thousands A DAY.

How the hell do you think you can keep up?
[/quote]By not allowing the Reapers to destory a thousand in a day. Refuse to give them a decisive engagement where they have the opportunity to eliminate all of our assets in short order. Only commit the fleets to fights where casualty ratio is likely to be within tollerable margins. Practice scorched-earth (destroying/disabling relays) in order to slow down the Reapers' progress.[/quote]


If you refuse to give them a decisive engagement, how do you plan to stop them or slow them down?
You can't have it both ways. Either you risk your fleet assets to slow the reapers down, or you give reapers free reign. If you don't slow them down, within a month you won't have any shipyards left.

Destroying the relays partialy works in their favor too. If they can't get to you, then your fleets on the other side can't get to where they are needed either. And reapers can travel at FTL faster and moere efficient than you.


[quote]
Essentially, the same way that happened in Afghanistan and Vietnam, but
with the advantage that the invaders numbers are far more finite than
the Russian and American forces, respectively.
[/quote]

Ground combat where you hide in jugnles/rocky mountain and among local populace does NOT compare to space combat in any way, shape or form.
Exactly where do you plan to hide your ships?