2463 réponses à ce sujet

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Sajuro wrote...


So use Jacob's personality?

Whoa,whoa,whoa..that's just overkill, that is like nuking a mugger.

[Colintastic]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Colintastic wrote...

Step 1: amass a fleet, mostly for distraction purposes, and for firepower once shields go down.

What fleet? From where? What ships are in it? How will it serve as a distraction? What makes you think it will last long?

Colintastic wrote...

Step 2: find an army and get them to citadel. Break army up into teams.
Step 3: Find a way to reverse the citadel's relay link with each reaper...

Why don't you just save time and make a virus that causes all Reapers to self-destruct? The problem with is that now you are talking purely about theoreticals. Who is to say that controlling the relays actually benefits us? The Reapers built them after all, so it is at least possible they can use them independently free of the Citadel. If you just turn the relay network off that might work, but it might not. Even if it does work it will help the Reapers more than it will help you since they have longer range anyway.

The rest of what you wrote is just silly.

Did you read ANYTHING I wrote? I said nothing about turning relays off. My solution in no way involves the relays themselves, just the citadel.

someone already backed me up on the fleet business. Most races have something serviceable. You just have to convince them to show up. It's reasonable to believe in the 2 years since the battle at the citadel that the races have rebuilt some ships. They also don't particularly have to last very long. 15-30 minutes is probably enough.

The next part is clearly the section you don't understand. I pose a first question, how did the reapers intend to instantly appear at the citadel from dark space in ME1? Because they all have some relay link to the citadel itself. When it's operational (i.e. no prothean tampering) they can effectively transport themselves to it at a moment's notice. Now what if that was to work in reverse? Rather than have reapers go to the citadel, you have things on the citadel go to the reapers. You then use the citadel to personally board each reaper. EVEN IF THAT DIDN'T WORK, you could still send boarding parties to each reaper, granted the casualty rate would be much much higher since the reaper see's your boarding party coming, but it would still get troops ON the reaper.

Next, previous reapers have been shown to be taken down by destroying their cores. For example the derelict reaper. After Shep goes in and blows up the eezo core, the mass effect fields drop and 1, the reaper is unable to fly anymore, and 2 it no longer has shields, thus would be reletively easy to destroy from the outside with the aforementioned fleet.

This is not to say that the reapers have no internal defenses, because they do. This is evidenced by the derelict reaper. It is staffed by a small army of husks and may indoctrinate just as any other reaper artifact does. This means any boarding party would have to be strong enough to handle the husk army, and work fast enough to avoid indoctrination.

Next you would have to get off the reaper, or everyone on it will die when you blow it up.

Coming up with a virus is retarded, aside from the lore making that difficult because reapers are the most advanced computers ever, so anything we could come up with likely wouldn't be effective. Second it is a terrible story mechanic. It's incredibly boring and completely negates the need to "solve political situations between various races".  

Modifié par Colintastic, 05 septembre 2011 - 06:12 .

[Colintastic]

Additionally on the issue of finding a standing army/fleet, the true Geth have a substantial disposable force. The way they work a dead mobile platform causes no actual casualty to them,and the codex says them have several million mobile platforms.

If they could be convinced to join your cause (and I'm betting they will be based upon Shep's relationship with Legion, they would serve as excellent cannon fodder to soak up fire while boarding parties entered each reaper.

Also the boarding plan works very well with game mechanics, since the player character is a foot soldier, thus a solution involving foot soldiers is the most reasonable one for the game to choose.

Modifié par Colintastic, 05 septembre 2011 - 05:59 .

[Sajuro]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Sajuro wrote...


So use Jacob's personality?

Whoa,whoa,whoa..that's just overkill, that is like nuking a mugger.

wait, you don't nuke your muggers? what is wrong with you people

[111987]

Colintastic wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Colintastic wrote...

Step 1: amass a fleet, mostly for distraction purposes, and for firepower once shields go down.

What fleet? From where? What ships are in it? How will it serve as a distraction? What makes you think it will last long?

Colintastic wrote...

Step 2: find an army and get them to citadel. Break army up into teams.
Step 3: Find a way to reverse the citadel's relay link with each reaper...

Why don't you just save time and make a virus that causes all Reapers to self-destruct? The problem with is that now you are talking purely about theoreticals. Who is to say that controlling the relays actually benefits us? The Reapers built them after all, so it is at least possible they can use them independently free of the Citadel. If you just turn the relay network off that might work, but it might not. Even if it does work it will help the Reapers more than it will help you since they have longer range anyway.

The rest of what you wrote is just silly.

Did you read ANYTHING I wrote? I said nothing about turning relays off. My solution in no way involves the relays themselves, just the citadel.

someone already backed me up on the fleet business. Most races have something serviceable. You just have to convince them to show up. It's reasonable to believe in the 2 years since the battle at the citadel that the races have rebuilt some ships. They also don't particularly have to last very long. 15-30 minutes is probably enough.

The next part is clearly the section you don't understand. I pose a first question, how did the reapers intend to instantly appear at the citadel from dark space in ME1? Because they all have some relay link to the citadel itself. When it's operational (i.e. no prothean tampering) they can effectively transport themselves to it at a moment's notice. Now what if that was to work in reverse? Rather than have reapers go to the citadel, you have things on the citadel go to the reapers. You then use the citadel to personally board each reaper. EVEN IF THAT DIDN'T WORK, you could still send boarding parties to each reaper, granted the casualty rate would be much much higher since the reaper see's your boarding party coming, but it would still get troops ON the reaper.

Next, previous reapers have been shown to be taken down by destroying their cores. For example the derelict reaper. After Shep goes in and blows up the eezo core, the mass effect fields drop and 1, the reaper is unable to fly anymore, and 2 it no longer has shields, thus would be reletively easy to destroy from the outside with the aforementioned fleet.

This is not to say that the reapers have no internal defenses, because they do. This is evidenced by the derelict reaper. It is staffed by a small army of husks and may indoctrinate just as any other reaper artifact does. This means any boarding party would have to be straong enough to handle the husk army, and work fast enough to avoid indoctrination.

Next you would have to get off the reaper, or everyone on it will die when you blow it up.

Coming up with a virus is retarded, aside from the lore making that difficult because they are the most advanced computers we know about so anything we could come up with likely wouldn't be effective. Second it is a terrible story mechanic. It's incredibly boring and completely negates the need to "solve political situations between various races".  

The Reapers don't link to the Citadel; there is a relay in dark space that links to the Citadel. And how would a ship board a Reaper? How do you get in it? How do you get past their shields? Why wouldn't one of their 11 super Thanix Cannons shoot them down first? If they realized they were being boarded, why not just FTL away?

So...your plan doesn't work.

[Colintastic]

111987 wrote...



The Reapers don't link to the Citadel; there is a relay in dark space that links to the Citadel. And how would a ship board a Reaper? How do you get in it? How do you get past their shields? Why wouldn't one of their 11 super Thanix Cannons shoot them down first? If they realized they were being boarded, why not just FTL away?

So...your plan doesn't work.

I would dispute the "dark space relay", but I have no evidence other than, that's a clever way the writers could allow boarding parties. So I'll go with my back up plan.

Shields only prevent high velocity objects, a small ship flying up has no issue. Their hulls themselves are not so extrodinarily thick by themselves. So you send a ship to latch on to the hull, cut a hole in their hull, star wars a new hope style, and board. Other examples include: Legion's loyalty mission boarding the Heretic station, the novel ME: Retribution when the cerberus base is boarded and of course the derelict reaper which still had shields up was boarded.  

To get past the guns, I'd recomend the zerg/WW2 normandy beach approach. If it's got 11 guns, it can only be shooting at 11 things at once. Send 12 dropships. This serves completely as an example of course it may take more than 12, but just send enough to overwhelm the guns. Casulties are high, but you get the job done. This is why one of my prior posts recomends the use of Geth. Additionally the reapers don't appear to have tremendous awareness of surroundings, evidenced by the intro to ME3 when Shep is just wandering around beneath their "feet" and they have no idea. Maybe add in another Star Wars reference here, but ya know how Luke takes down an ATAT all by himself. Runs under it, grappling hooks up, cuts a hole, blows it up from the inside. Luke's plan could most certainly be adapted to ME universe, involving a boarding party.

Once boarded, go ahead and FTL away, but the boarding party could transmit their location, AND would still be aboard. Also once the eezo core/ other useful parts inside the reaper were destroyed FTL would be impossible, and the fleet could catch up and dismantle the thing with ease. Granted if the reaper FTL'd away there is a chance that it would take too long for the fleet to arrive and by the time it did, the team inside will have been indoctrinated. That's another risk.

I didn't say the plan would be easy or have a 100% success rate. Just that it would take some of them down. without having a 100% loss rate of all personnel involved.

In the end my backup plan is sort of crude, and has less finesse involved. The ME team likes finesse, this is clear based on other missions, So based upon that, I'm banking on my primary plan being the operative way to take them down.

In any case, you jackals got any other nay saying to hit me with, bring it.

Modifié par Colintastic, 05 septembre 2011 - 06:32 .

[stysiaq]

111987 wrote...


The Reapers don't link to the Citadel; there is a relay in dark space that links to the Citadel. And how would a ship board a Reaper? How do you get in it? How do you get past their shields? Why wouldn't one of their 11 super Thanix Cannons shoot them down first? If they realized they were being boarded, why not just FTL away?

So...your plan doesn't work.

I think he meant boarding the Reapers with some suicide squads to destroy their ME cores. I say why? Teleport nukes inside them, problem solved.

Was it discussed, why we can't simply use 20 megaton nukes? Recently there was an anniversary of so-called "Tzar-bomb" test. The mushroom was 60km high. I think it is sufficient power, but no, nukes would be just too easy.


Edit: wiki article on tzar bomba
http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Tsar_Bomba
about 57 - 58 megatons

Modifié par stysiaq, 05 septembre 2011 - 06:36 .

[Colintastic]

stysiaq wrote...

I think he meant boarding the Reapers with some suicide squads to destroy their ME cores. I say why? Teleport nukes inside them, problem solved.

Was it discussed, why we can't simply use 20 megaton nukes? Recently there was an anniversary of so-called "Tzar-bomb" test. The mushroom was 60km high. I think it is sufficient power, but no, nukes would be just too easy.

1. Nukes are a boring story mechanic.
2. The shields would defend from the blast, so it would have to be placed internally - also a possibility.

Given internal nuke concept, you'd have to say send a team to activate it inside to make the gameplay even remotely entertaining. Then there is no reason why some of the internal army of husks, or whatever each reaper has living on board couldn't just deactivate the bomb.

The internal army would have to be addressed, and that a small team of commandos would be required to handle.

[111987]

Colintastic wrote...

111987 wrote...



The Reapers don't link to the Citadel; there is a relay in dark space that links to the Citadel. And how would a ship board a Reaper? How do you get in it? How do you get past their shields? Why wouldn't one of their 11 super Thanix Cannons shoot them down first? If they realized they were being boarded, why not just FTL away?

So...your plan doesn't work.

I would dispute the "dark space relay", but I have no evidence other than, that's a clever way the writers could allow boarding parties. So I'll go with my back up plan.

Shields only prevent high velocity objects, a small ship flying up has no issue. Their hulls themselves are not so extrodinarily thick by themselves. So you send a ship to latch on to the hull, cut a hole in their hull, star wars a new hope style, and board. Other examples include: Legion's loyalty mission boarding the Heretic station, the novel ME: Retribution when the cerberus base is boarded and of course the derelict reaper which still had shields up was boarded.  

To get past the guns, I'd recomend the zerg/WW2 normandy beach approach. If it's got 11 guns, it can only be shooting at 11 things at once. Send 12 dropships. This serves completely as an example of course it may take more than 12, but just send enough to overwhelm the guns. Casulties are high, but you get the job done. This is why one of my prior posts recomends the use of Geth. Additionally the reapers don't appear to have tremendous awareness of surroundings, evidenced by the intro to ME3 when Shep is just wandering around beneath their "feet" and they have no idea. Maybe add in another Star Wars reference here, but ya know how Luke takes down an ATAT all by himself. Runs under it, grappling hooks up, cuts a hole, blows it up from the inside. Luke's plan could most certainly be adapted to ME universe, involving a boarding party.

Once boarded, go ahead and FTL away, but the boarding party could transmit their location, AND would still be aboard. Also once the eezo core/ other useful parts inside the reaper were destroyed FTL would be impossible, and the fleet could catch up and dismantle the thing with ease. Granted if the reaper FTL'd away there is a chance that it would take too long for the fleet to arrive and by the time it did, the team inside will have been indoctrinated. That's another risk.

I didn't say the plan would be easy or have a 100% success rate. Just that it would take some of them down. without having a 100% loss rate of all personnel involved.

In the end my backup plan is sort of crude, and has less finesse involved. The ME team likes finesse, this is clear based on other missions, So based upon that, I'm banking on my primary plan being the operative way to take them down.

In any case, you jackals got any other nay saying to hit me with, bring it.

A small ship would have issue getting close to a Reaper. We know this due to Disruptor Torpedoes; DT's use mass effect fields to increase their mass to extraordinary levels so that traditional shields cannot block them. However, the drawback is that they move very slowly. As we see in the cutscene with Sovereign, its shields are more sophisticated and can block the slow moving disruptor torpedoes. Therefore, a small ship would have a comparable amount of success in breaching the shields (i.e. none). The Derelict Reaper had its mass effect envelope up, but it only activated its kinetic barriers after Shepard was on board. After that, the Normandy couldn't reach them until the eezo core was destroyed.

However, let's assume that the Reapers shields can be bypassed by a small ship. So the ship latches onto the Reaper and begins cutting into its hole with some kind of new lazer technology. Great. Let's say that takes 10 seconss to completley cut through. During that time, why wouldn't the Reapers just blast the ship off? Their Thanix Cannons are mounted on very flexible tentacle like appendages. They have shown the kind of flexibility to be able to just shoot the boarding ships off.

Blitzing the Reapers isn't all that effective either. Yes the Reaper has 11 guns, but those guns can fire every three seconds, and each shot is a one-shot K.O against anything smaller than a dreadnaught.

This plan seems like it has a VERY low chance of success, and the cost would be VERY high.

[111987]

stysiaq wrote...

111987 wrote...


The Reapers don't link to the Citadel; there is a relay in dark space that links to the Citadel. And how would a ship board a Reaper? How do you get in it? How do you get past their shields? Why wouldn't one of their 11 super Thanix Cannons shoot them down first? If they realized they were being boarded, why not just FTL away?

So...your plan doesn't work.

I think he meant boarding the Reapers with some suicide squads to destroy their ME cores. I say why? Teleport nukes inside them, problem solved.

Was it discussed, why we can't simply use 20 megaton nukes? Recently there was an anniversary of so-called "Tzar-bomb" test. The mushroom was 60km high. I think it is sufficient power, but no, nukes would be just too easy.


Edit: wiki article on tzar bomba
http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Tsar_Bomba
about 57 - 58 megatons

Using nukes would probably generate enough force to take down a Reaper, but if the Reapers are attacking garden worlds and the homeworlds of species, is that really an option? The amount of nukes it would take down even a small squadron of Reapers would likely devastate that world for centuries.

[Colintastic]

111987 wrote...


A small ship would have issue getting close to a Reaper. We know this due to Disruptor Torpedoes; DT's use mass effect fields to increase their mass to extraordinary levels so that traditional shields cannot block them. However, the drawback is that they move very slowly. As we see in the cutscene with Sovereign, its shields are more sophisticated and can block the slow moving disruptor torpedoes. Therefore, a small ship would have a comparable amount of success in breaching the shields (i.e. none). The Derelict Reaper had its mass effect envelope up, but it only activated its kinetic barriers after Shepard was on board. After that, the Normandy couldn't reach them until the eezo core was destroyed.

However, let's assume that the Reapers shields can be bypassed by a small ship. So the ship latches onto the Reaper and begins cutting into its hole with some kind of new lazer technology. Great. Let's say that takes 10 seconss to completley cut through. During that time, why wouldn't the Reapers just blast the ship off? Their Thanix Cannons are mounted on very flexible tentacle like appendages. They have shown the kind of flexibility to be able to just shoot the boarding ships off.

Blitzing the Reapers isn't all that effective either. Yes the Reaper has 11 guns, but those guns can fire every three seconds, and each shot is a one-shot K.O against anything smaller than a dreadnaught.

This plan seems like it has a VERY low chance of success, and the cost would be VERY high.

Oh please the tentacles are not THAT flexible. Also aiming it's guns at itself just does not particularly seem like a wise idea. While it is an assumption, I'm guessing it's own guns probably can do some substantial damage to itself. Also what if you tried to board ON a tentacle?

Next, to this issue of reaper shields: you are right about boarding the derelict reaper, the kinetic barriers went up after shep was inside. While this is true, it does not state why the normandy was unable to reach them. Also the DT anaology is likely a poor one. The codex says that DT's move slow... in relation to warheads or other projectiles that are generally dealt with by guardian guns. That does not mean they would move as slow as a drop ship. Additionally DT's are to be fired from "knife fight" range which is defined to be a "few dozen kilometers" by the codex, we are unsure how a much closer object would be treated by shields. Next If the landing party used the kodiak ship, the ship has effectively "no mass" as opposed to a DT which has a whole crap ton of mass, so the analogy is also a bad one.

Further we are not entirely sure how reaper shields operate. They could be similar to the CBT shields? Were that the case, if they affected dropships, the ships could be designed to be slapped around a bit. They don't particularly have to be really complex. I'm getting a bit theorhetical here, but it seems to me that boarding would not be impossible.

Modifié par Colintastic, 05 septembre 2011 - 07:16 .

[111987]

Colintastic wrote...

111987 wrote...


A small ship would have issue getting close to a Reaper. We know this due to Disruptor Torpedoes; DT's use mass effect fields to increase their mass to extraordinary levels so that traditional shields cannot block them. However, the drawback is that they move very slowly. As we see in the cutscene with Sovereign, its shields are more sophisticated and can block the slow moving disruptor torpedoes. Therefore, a small ship would have a comparable amount of success in breaching the shields (i.e. none). The Derelict Reaper had its mass effect envelope up, but it only activated its kinetic barriers after Shepard was on board. After that, the Normandy couldn't reach them until the eezo core was destroyed.

However, let's assume that the Reapers shields can be bypassed by a small ship. So the ship latches onto the Reaper and begins cutting into its hole with some kind of new lazer technology. Great. Let's say that takes 10 seconss to completley cut through. During that time, why wouldn't the Reapers just blast the ship off? Their Thanix Cannons are mounted on very flexible tentacle like appendages. They have shown the kind of flexibility to be able to just shoot the boarding ships off.

Blitzing the Reapers isn't all that effective either. Yes the Reaper has 11 guns, but those guns can fire every three seconds, and each shot is a one-shot K.O against anything smaller than a dreadnaught.

This plan seems like it has a VERY low chance of success, and the cost would be VERY high.

Oh please the tentacles are not THAT flexible. Also aiming it's guns at itself just does not particularly seem like a wise idea. While it is an assumption, I'm guessing it's own guns probably can do some substantial damage to itself. Also what if you tried to board ON a tentacle?

Next, to this issue of reaper shields: you are right about boarding the derelict reaper, the kinetic barriers went up after shep was inside. While this is true, it does not state why the normandy was unable to reach them. Also the DT anaology is likely a poor one. The codex says that DT's move slow... in relation to warheads or other projectiles that are generally dealt with by guardian guns. That does not mean they would move as slow as a drop ship. Further we are not entirely sure how reaper shields operate. They could be similar to the CBT shields? Were that the case, if they affected dropships, the ships could be designed to be slapped around a bit. They don't particularly have to be really complex. I'm getting a bit theorhetical here, but it seems to me that boarding would not be impossible. 

Watch the Battle of the Citadel again; the tentacles ARE very flexible. In the scene where Sovereign starts blasting the cruisers attacking it, one of it's tentacles aims at a target behind Sovereign. Furthermore, we don't know if Reapers have a point-defense system similar to what all ME ships has; the GARDIAN lasers. If they do, then drop ships are out of the question. However that is just speculation. And how could you board the Reaper through its gun?

Once again, watch the Battle of the Citadel; we can clearly see the velocity of the DT's, and they are going quite slow. A shuttle would have to inch its way up to the Reaper to not activate its shields; by that time, it would be blasted out of the sky.

You're forgetting another factor; the Occuli. We see in the Earth game play demo that the Reapers use Occuli as their version of fighters. An Occulus would easily destroy several of the drop ships before they even got close, and laser off any that latch onto the Reapers.

[Colintastic]

111987 wrote...



Watch the Battle of the Citadel again; the tentacles ARE very flexible. In the scene where Sovereign starts blasting the cruisers attacking it, one of it's tentacles aims at a target behind Sovereign. Furthermore, we don't know if Reapers have a point-defense system similar to what all ME ships has; the GARDIAN lasers. If they do, then drop ships are out of the question. However that is just speculation. And how could you board the Reaper through its gun?

Once again, watch the Battle of the Citadel; we can clearly see the velocity of the DT's, and they are going quite slow. A shuttle would have to inch its way up to the Reaper to not activate its shields; by that time, it would be blasted out of the sky.

You're forgetting another factor; the Occuli. We see in the Earth game play demo that the Reapers use Occuli as their version of fighters. An Occulus would easily destroy several of the drop ships before they even got close, and laser off any that latch onto the Reapers.

the gun: I'm assuming the whole tentacle is not a gun, it's a bit thick for that.

I watched the battle again, the tentacles can shoot "backwards" when the thing is vertical. They do not shoot "up" towards the abdomen or for that matter back upon itself.

To the guardian laser concept, those kinds of guns are meant to be fired at projectiles with no shields of their own, drop ships have shields. to give them some durability.

Same stands for the occuli, Drop ships have SOME durability. Further, as step 1 of my plan, I said gather a fleet, this fleet should be keeping things like the occuli busy.

Modifié par Colintastic, 05 septembre 2011 - 07:38 .

[111987]

Colintastic wrote...

111987 wrote...



Watch the Battle of the Citadel again; the tentacles ARE very flexible. In the scene where Sovereign starts blasting the cruisers attacking it, one of it's tentacles aims at a target behind Sovereign. Furthermore, we don't know if Reapers have a point-defense system similar to what all ME ships has; the GARDIAN lasers. If they do, then drop ships are out of the question. However that is just speculation. And how could you board the Reaper through its gun?

Once again, watch the Battle of the Citadel; we can clearly see the velocity of the DT's, and they are going quite slow. A shuttle would have to inch its way up to the Reaper to not activate its shields; by that time, it would be blasted out of the sky.

You're forgetting another factor; the Occuli. We see in the Earth game play demo that the Reapers use Occuli as their version of fighters. An Occulus would easily destroy several of the drop ships before they even got close, and laser off any that latch onto the Reapers.

the gun: I'm assuming the whole tentacle is not a gun, it's a bit thick for that.

I watched the battle again, the tentacles can shoot "backwards" when the thing is vertical. They do not shoot "up" towards the abdomen or for that matter back upon itself.

To the guardian laser concept, those kinds of guns are meant to be fired at projectiles with no shields of their own, drop ships have shields. to give them some durability.

Same stands for the occuli, Drop ships have SOME durability. Further, as step 1 of my plan, I said gather a fleet, this fleet should be keeping things like the occuli busy.

It didn't fire close to itself because nothing tried to board it. But fine, since it's speculation, I'll drop that point.

GARDIAN lasers ignore shields; kinetic barriers are useless against them. There's a lot of stuff in the Codex about this.

The fleet wouldn't distract the Occuli though. The Occuli are used to fight smaller crafts, such as fighters, interceptors, and possibly frigates. While the Reapers would be obliterating the cruisers and dreadnaughts, the Occuli would be defending them. And since their main weapon is a directed energy weapon, it ignores kinetic barriers; this is why the Normandy requires upgraded armor to defend against the Occuli.

And once again, there's still nothing suggesting a drop ship could even penetrate the Reapers shields.

[Colintastic]

Fleet includes fighters to deal with Occuli. It makes sense that lasers ignore shields. But armor still exists. There is also little evidence suggesting that a drop ship could not penetrate the shields. Saren got on Sovereign somehow as did the alliance scientist guy before him. Regardless that it is speculative, I know that's how it's going to happen be because this is a third person shooter game wherein the main character is a foot soldier, thus the problem will be solved in a way a foot soldier can handle it.

Alternatively to any of this it seems silly that the remaining protheans did not just use the citidel relay to send an asteroid through, and if there is an "other side" detonate that relay and destroy all the "dormant" reapers.

[Colintastic]

Also I will reiterate my point that the citadel is in fact a relay between each reaper. The only thing that actually mentions a "dark space relay" is vigil. And what's he know? He's a prothean. He's just speculating too. Even then all he says is < the citadel is actually a massive relay linking to dark space. He doesn't quite say that there IS in fact a dark space relay.

It is far more of a elegant solution to board each reaper because of a link to the citadel. Thus that's how it's gonna go down.

[111987]

Colintastic wrote...

Fleet includes fighters to deal with Occuli. It makes sense that lasers ignore shields. But armor still exists. There is also little evidence suggesting that a drop ship could not penetrate the shields. Saren got on Sovereign somehow as did the alliance scientist guy before him. Regardless that it is speculative, I know that's how it's going to happen be because this is a third person shooter game wherein the main character is a foot soldier, thus the problem will be solved in a way a foot soldier can handle it.

Alternatively to any of this it seems silly that the remaining protheans did not just use the citidel relay to send an asteroid through, and if there is an "other side" detonate that relay and destroy all the "dormant" reapers.

Shield =/= Mass Effect envelope

There's no way that a drop ships armor is stronger than the unupgraded Normandy's, meaning the lasers would effortlessly destroy drop ships. I'm telling you, this drop ship plan would never work consistently. You'd need DOZENS of drop ships to even board one Reaper as it and the Occuli would swat away most of them with ease, and even if you get on board, you have to deal with their internal defenses. The loss of live to destroy even one Reaper would be catastrophic. Furthermore, once this plan worked the first time, the Reapers would adapt to it. The next time they see a horde of drop ships coming at them, they'd just ram into them like Sovereign did to that poor Turian cruiser.

The Protheans couldn't do that because there were like only 12 of them left, they had no ship to get off the Citadel, no means of finding and trapping an asteroid, and have no idea how to activate the Citadel Relay. Furtheremore, a drift of several thousand or even millions of kilometers is common when using Mass Relays, meaning there's like a 0.0000000001% chance of the asteroid actually hitting the relay in dark space. Assuming the asteroid could even destroy the relay; an asteroid wouldn't be strong enough to destroy the Citadel when closed, for example.

Colintastic wrote...
Also I will reiterate my point that the citadel is in fact a relay
between each reaper. The only thing that actually mentions a "dark space
relay" is vigil. And what's he know? He's a prothean. He's just
speculating too. Even then all he says is < the citadel is actually a
massive relay linking to dark space. He doesn't quite say that there IS
in fact a dark space relay.

It is far more of a elegant solution to board each reaper because of a link to the citadel. Thus that's how it's gonna go down.

No. That makes no sense and you have ZERO proof that the Reapers individually link to the Citadel. Every other relay works in pairs; why would this be the only exception?

In-game explanation>fan speculation

Modifié par 111987, 05 septembre 2011 - 08:12 .

[marstor05]

So the Citadels gotta burn then? Yee Ha!

[Colintastic]

111987 wrote...

Shield =/= Mass Effect envelope

There's no way that a drop ships armor is stronger than the unupgraded Normandy's, meaning the lasers would effortlessly destroy drop ships. I'm telling you, this drop ship plan would never work consistently. You'd need DOZENS of drop ships to even board one Reaper as it and the Occuli would swat away most of them with ease, and even if you get on board, you have to deal with their internal defenses. The loss of live to destroy even one Reaper would be catastrophic. Furthermore, once this plan worked the first time, the Reapers would adapt to it. The next time they see a horde of drop ships coming at them, they'd just ram into them like Sovereign did to that poor Turian cruiser.

The Protheans couldn't do that because there were like only 12 of them left, they had no ship to get off the Citadel, no means of finding and trapping an asteroid, and have no idea how to activate the Citadel Relay. Furtheremore, a drift of several thousand or even millions of kilometers is common when using Mass Relays, meaning there's like a 0.0000000001% chance of the asteroid actually hitting the relay in dark space. Assuming the asteroid could even destroy the relay; an asteroid wouldn't be strong enough to destroy the Citadel when closed, for example.

Would have to do it all at once, try to get as many of them as possible at one time. Also I'm relying heavily on the Geth fleet here. If the Heretics made up roughly 5% of the Geth and by association, Geth resources, the True Geth fleet must be immense. They've got to have many millions of disposable bodies for an assult just like the one I've proposed. No loss of life involved. Just mobile platforms.

[111987]

Colintastic wrote...

111987 wrote...

Shield =/= Mass Effect envelope

There's no way that a drop ships armor is stronger than the unupgraded Normandy's, meaning the lasers would effortlessly destroy drop ships. I'm telling you, this drop ship plan would never work consistently. You'd need DOZENS of drop ships to even board one Reaper as it and the Occuli would swat away most of them with ease, and even if you get on board, you have to deal with their internal defenses. The loss of live to destroy even one Reaper would be catastrophic. Furthermore, once this plan worked the first time, the Reapers would adapt to it. The next time they see a horde of drop ships coming at them, they'd just ram into them like Sovereign did to that poor Turian cruiser.

The Protheans couldn't do that because there were like only 12 of them left, they had no ship to get off the Citadel, no means of finding and trapping an asteroid, and have no idea how to activate the Citadel Relay. Furtheremore, a drift of several thousand or even millions of kilometers is common when using Mass Relays, meaning there's like a 0.0000000001% chance of the asteroid actually hitting the relay in dark space. Assuming the asteroid could even destroy the relay; an asteroid wouldn't be strong enough to destroy the Citadel when closed, for example.

Would have to do it all at once, try to get as many of them as possible at one time. Also I'm relying heavily on the Geth fleet here. If the Heretics made up roughly 5% of the Geth and by association, Geth resources, the True Geth fleet must be immense. They've got to have many millions of disposable bodies for an assult just like the one I've proposed. No loss of life involved. Just mobile platforms.

How are you going to coordinate a joint attack on every Reaper? It's not like they're all in the same place.

Your point about the Geth isn't necesarrily true. The true Geth have spent the vast majority of their time and resources on building their future; their Dyson Sphere-like megastructure for them to all upload in to. Why would they bother creating a massive fleet when they plan on leaving their mobile platforms anyways? Not to say that they don't have a large or powerful fleet, but it's unlikey it's 95% bigger than the Heretic's fleet.

You have also failed to show how the drop ships could even get past a Reaper shield. We have two cases suggesting this wouldn't be possible; the Disruptor Torpedo's having a sluggish velocity yet still penetrating Sovereign's shield, and the Normandy's inability to reach Shepard once the Derelict Reaper's shields went up.

[Colintastic]

111987 wrote...

No. That makes no sense and you have ZERO proof that the Reapers individually link to the Citadel. Every other relay works in pairs; why would this be the only exception?

In-game explanation>fan speculation

Each game adds something. Why would they put all information needed to solve the problem in the first 2 games when they have a third? Zealous devotion to lore =/= an elegant solution, except in mystery novels where you're supposed to figure it out before the character does. I can say with complete certainty that the whole frontal assault boarding plan WILL NOT be used with success in the game. It's simply not that interesting to write about from a storyteller's point of view.

Figuring out the actual plot of ME3 will only be solved by making some sort of inference. This is a good one.
I'm not suggesting a change in the "pair" dynamic, just that the reaper is the second unit in the pair. While generally you would be correct fan speculation is worthless when compared to in game explanations, you have to accept that there is missing information. Then in picking up on the missing information you have to consider other commonly used story mechanics that would also work with the gameplay.


I'm 95% positive Shepard will at some point board a reaper, then destroy it from the inside out. This is because of how the gameplay is set up (3rd person shooter), and how prior repears have been killed (all prior 3 were killed by destorying some sort of essential nerve center operations). Attacking their outsides just doesn't particularly seem pretty. By "pretty" I mean interesting to use as a story telling mechanic. Commonly mass suicide charges and huge battles are usually covered in montages or briefly highlighting of various aspects - not as a whole. They simply make kind of repetative and boring visuals if they are drawn out. That's why that won't happen. Further the gameplay doesn't lend towards that sort of activity, vehicle combat just really hasn't been terribly robust thus far and I don't see that changing based upon how much effort they've put into hand to hand and on foot mobility. Further, I have enough faith in the writers not to present some cop-out, dues ex machina solution to the whole war that in effect negates the entire purpose of wandering around the galaxy drumming up support of various races.

GIven all of that, how do you get Shepard aboard a reaper? Well you can force your way in or teleport your way in. Maybe there is a third option that hasn't occured to me, but that starts getting pretty complex and I'll even admit overly speculative. A quick example  of a third option would be that if the reapers don't have a link to the citadel that one could be made to a smaller relay... like say the conduit. The developers have said there will be some more prothean interaction, this could be finding their notes on relay technology then using those notes to create a link between some newly minted human made relay and a selected reaper core. However, I'm willing to admit that gets a bit crazy and over the top with guesswork.

So given my first 2 options, I've discussed at length how a frontal assult boarding party would work, There is no direct evidence saying this doesn't work, just that it would be difficult. This also won't be done simply because it's not "pretty" and there are more interesting solutions the writers could employ.

Using the citadel is sneaky, provides the writers with a twist, doesn't involve kamikaze tactics, employs technology a mass effect field to get things done, involves a central object that has been there all along, Will somehow involve the keepers again (which in my opinion are a dormant plot device waiting to be tapped), and I'm too sleepy to come up with more reasons now.

Main point here is this inference is not a wildly planned one, rather something that is easy to make based upon in game info and developer hints.

[EsterCloat]

Colintastic wrote...

Also I will reiterate my point that the citadel is in fact a relay between each reaper. The only thing that actually mentions a "dark space relay" is vigil. And what's he know? He's a prothean. He's just speculating too. Even then all he says is < the citadel is actually a massive relay linking to dark space. He doesn't quite say that there IS in fact a dark space relay.

It is far more of a elegant solution to board each reaper because of a link to the citadel. Thus that's how it's gonna go down.

Relays work by creating a corridor of massless space-time between two relays at two given points. In order for your Reapers are their own relays idea to work relays would have to be able to "fall into" their own corridor, which seems unlikely. However, let's just go under the assumption that you're correct and Reapers can link directly to the Citadel. What's stopping them from just not accepting "requests", for lack of a better term, from the Citadel for relay jumps of enemy ships? Just because the Reapers have eezo cores and in this situation are relays themselves doesn't automatically mean that a relay can shoot stuff at them and they can't do anything to stop it.

But here's what concerns me most about your solution: it involves linking the Reapers to Citadel. The second you connect the Citadel to the Reapers you won't have to worry about getting your dropships to them because every single last Reaper will be on top of you. I'll even use my own argument against me and say what's stopping you from just denying the Reaper requests to jump to the Citadel. That's all well and good but that kind of leaves the two parties at a stalemate where neither is willing to open up their relays under the fear that the other party will destroy them.

I just don't see how linking the Reapers to the Citadel will not end up having the Reapers using those same links to jump themselves straight towards the object that will help them the most.

Modifié par EsterCloat, 05 septembre 2011 - 09:25 .

[Moonshadow_Dark]

Colintastic wrote...

111987 wrote...

No. That makes no sense and you have ZERO proof that the Reapers individually link to the Citadel. Every other relay works in pairs; why would this be the only exception?

In-game explanation>fan speculation

Each game adds something. Why would they put all information needed to solve the problem in the first 2 games when they have a third? Zealous devotion to lore =/= an elegant solution, except in mystery novels where you're supposed to figure it out before the character does. I can say with complete certainty that the whole frontal assault boarding plan WILL NOT be used with success in the game. It's simply not that interesting to write about from a storyteller's point of view.

Figuring out the actual plot of ME3 will only be solved by making some sort of inference. This is a good one.
I'm not suggesting a change in the "pair" dynamic, just that the reaper is the second unit in the pair. While generally you would be correct fan speculation is worthless when compared to in game explanations, you have to accept that there is missing information. Then in picking up on the missing information you have to consider other commonly used story mechanics that would also work with the gameplay.


I'm 95% positive Shepard will at some point board a reaper, then destroy it from the inside out. This is because of how the gameplay is set up (3rd person shooter), and how prior repears have been killed (all prior 3 were killed by destorying some sort of essential nerve center operations). Attacking their outsides just doesn't particularly seem pretty. By "pretty" I mean interesting to use as a story telling mechanic. Commonly mass suicide charges and huge battles are usually covered in montages or briefly highlighting of various aspects - not as a whole. They simply make kind of repetative and boring visuals if they are drawn out. That's why that won't happen. Further the gameplay doesn't lend towards that sort of activity, vehicle combat just really hasn't been terribly robust thus far and I don't see that changing based upon how much effort they've put into hand to hand and on foot mobility. Further, I have enough faith in the writers not to present some cop-out, dues ex machina solution to the whole war that in effect negates the entire purpose of wandering around the galaxy drumming up support of various races.

GIven all of that, how do you get Shepard aboard a reaper? Well you can force your way in or teleport your way in. Maybe there is a third option that hasn't occured to me, but that starts getting pretty complex and I'll even admit overly speculative. A quick example  of a third option would be that if the reapers don't have a link to the citadel that one could be made to a smaller relay... like say the conduit. The developers have said there will be some more prothean interaction, this could be finding their notes on relay technology then using those notes to create a link between some newly minted human made relay and a selected reaper core. However, I'm willing to admit that gets a bit crazy and over the top with guesswork.

So given my first 2 options, I've discussed at length how a frontal assult boarding party would work, There is no direct evidence saying this doesn't work, just that it would be difficult. This also won't be done simply because it's not "pretty" and there are more interesting solutions the writers could employ.

Using the citadel is sneaky, provides the writers with a twist, doesn't involve kamikaze tactics, employs technology a mass effect field to get things done, involves a central object that has been there all along, Will somehow involve the keepers again (which in my opinion are a dormant plot device waiting to be tapped), and I'm too sleepy to come up with more reasons now.

Main point here is this inference is not a wildly planned one, rather something that is easy to make based upon in game info and developer hints.

[111987]

Even from a game-play perspective your plan isn't great. There are thousands of Reapers. Even if you could magically teleport onto them, it would be a very boring and repetitive game. I agree Shepard will be key in defeating the Reapers, meaning third-person combat will be involved, but I disagree that your way is hot it will be done. However I could be totally wrong, since we just don't know.