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[elikal71]

Ok I finished Legacy, and must say I am quite pleased. Finally some more fodder for the world story. I tried to find all pieces of paper, and I sided with the women (name?) who wanted to free and control Corypheus. Not because I really believed it would work, but I felt it would open more dialogue WITH Corypheus and thus give more info.

So what I learned was this:

- apparently Corypheus was one of the original Tevinter Mages who tried to invade the "Golden City"... which was QUITE a remarkable thing, I must admit

- Corypheus was apparently once a sort of Priest of Dumat; Dumat was the God of Silence of the "Older Gods", and obviously Dumat (and/or the Older Gods in general) actually ordered the Tevinter Mages to invade the "Golden City", Dumat and the Older Gods had promised the Tevinter Mages "the Light", but instead they found something different, a great darkness of sorts; Corypheus clearly said that what they found was not what they expected/had been promised

- we also know, Dumat was the first Dragon/Demon to be contaiged by the Blight and thus start the First Blight, which happend in Anderfels if I recally correct, from the expansion of DA:O and the "Architect" we know the Blight tainted the Old Gods/Dragons in a way, so they were not originally so demonic as we know them from DA:O. Which does not necessarily mean they were demonic or evil.

- Cory says the city has been black "ever since"; it can mean both: it has always been black (at the inside) or it was black ever since they got there

- Corypheus also says, Dumat promised them "the power of the Gods", plural! Not "the power of God" or "the power of the Maker"! Actually Corypheus does not mention The Maker with one word, which IMVPO is the most striking fact. If the Chantry version was true, would this not be one of the topics he would speak about? But instead Corypheus mentions the Maker not in one word. Remarkable, given it is assumes the Golden City was his, or so the Chantry claims.

EDIT:
- also the Altar of Dumat "works", so Dumat can apparently still grant wishes. Even though the reward is kinda crappy. I onder what that implies??


Two Questions remain open:

a) The Dalish speak of the Creators (their good Gods) and the "Forgotten Ones", another more chaotic race of Gods, and those two were ar war. But who are the "Older Gods" Dumat belongs to? The Elven Creators, the Forgotten Ones? Or is the Dalish religion just hogwash? OR are they all the same? My personal idea at the moment is, that the Older Gods like Dumat are the Forgotten Ones.

What REALLY happened in the Golden/Black City? I found it quite remarkable that one of the original Tevinter Mages still lives. Didn't the Chantry say they were imprisoned in the Black City? I don't recall exactly what the Cantry said about the fate of these mages. And Coryphus said, what they found was not what they expected. How? I still have a VERY hard time, that some mages, with whatever power, just invade the city of the Maker himself... But what else was there? You see, the Blight hit the Old Gods/Dragons bad, it didn't work well for them. So was the Blight contained within the city? Was it a prison for some yet unknown evil? I mean, sure we can assume the Elven Gods are just imaginary, but it strikes me, that they are apparently the only group we hear nothing from, ony Fen'Harel banished them just like the other gods, the Forgotten Ones.

Oh man... just such a small puzzle piece. *sigh*

I really hope, whatever DA3 brings, we get to know a LOT more. (And IMVPO I would be very disappointed if the Chantry were true... but I guess that's just me.)



EDIT 2:

After some thought I came to this idea:

The Old Gods are apparently identical with the Dragons, Dumat being the first. These Dragons lived under the earth. And Dumat and the Old Gods told the Tevinter Mages how to invade the Golden City and promised them power. "The Power of the Gods", Corypheus says. This indicated there were other gods besides the "Old Gods". In the Dalish myth we hear of two God pantheons, the Creators and the Forgotten Ones. The Creators lived in Heaven and the Forgotten Ones in the Abyss.

If we assume Heaven is the Fade and the Abyss the deep roads, it makes sense. So we can assume the Creators, the Elven Gods lived in the "Fade", maybe in the Golden City? And the Forgotten Ones would be identical with the Old Gods, who also are the Dragons/Demons of the Blight. Then Fen'Harel who banished them both could indeed be the Maker. For why else should Dumat and the Old Gods direct the Tevinter Mages to conquer the Golden City, if not to overthrow their old enemies, the Elven Creator Gods? But what had happend with the Creators? Did they die? Did they turn into something dark, being imprisoned inside the Golden City by Fen'Harel/The Maker?

Must further investigate. Rorschach journal over...

Modifié par elikal71, 27 juillet 2011 - 07:26 .

[TOBY FLENDERSON]

The old gods are the goodish Dalish gods, there dragons btw. The Forgotten ones (Gaxkang the unbound, and some other demons we've killed) are demons from the fade and were trapped within the fade buy The dread wolf, black city anyone. The dread wolf was something in between these two, archdeamon anyone. The old gods sleep in the earth and are uncorrupted until they encounter darkspawn. Missing a link between how Dumat got corrupted but possible he was tricked into the fade and corrupted by or corrupted the golden city and decided to use the darkspawn as his own personal army by tricking lower beings, the magisters, into becoming corrupted.

Modifié par TOBY FLENDERSON, 27 juillet 2011 - 01:05 .

[WhiteKnyght]

It sounds to me like Thedas has a very colorful Pre-Magister&Chantry history that's been long forgotten.

Legacy sounds like the first piece of solid proof that the Chantry's ideas are wrong. If only half wrong.

[FieryDove]

elikal71 wrote...

- we also know, Dumat was the first Dragon/Demon to be contaiged by the Blight and thus start the First Blight, which happend in Anderfels if I recally correct, from the expansion of DA:O and the "Architect" we know the Blight tainted the Old Gods/Dragons in a way, so they were not originally so demonic as we know them from DA:O. Which does not necessarily mean they were demonic or evil.

Do we know this for certain? It could be a case of mistaken identity and Dumat is still alive somewhere. It would make more sense since the altar and statues still grant things/powers to followers.

elikal71 wrote...

- Corypheus was apparently once a sort of Priest of Dumat; Dumat was the God of Silence of the "Older Gods", and obviously Dumat (and/or the Older Gods in general) actually ordered the Tevinter Mages to invade the "Golden City", Dumat and the Older Gods had promised the Tevinter Mages "the Light", but instead they found something different, a great darkness of sorts; Corypheus clearly said that what they found was not what they expected/had been promised

I would hope one day we can visit the black city and find out. Maybe end the corruption forever or something.
It did seem like Cory was sort of shocked that the golden city/power of the gods were not what they were given. Perhaps it had been tainted by Dumat himself tricking the old magisters to invade along the way. Its all a puzzle to me. (I like puzzles)

Does anyone know how many magisters were *cast down* to become the first DS according to the chantry?

[Silentmode]

FieryDove wrote...

elikal71 wrote...

- we also know, Dumat was the first Dragon/Demon to be contaiged by the Blight and thus start the First Blight, which happend in Anderfels if I recally correct, from the expansion of DA:O and the "Architect" we know the Blight tainted the Old Gods/Dragons in a way, so they were not originally so demonic as we know them from DA:O. Which does not necessarily mean they were demonic or evil.

Do we know this for certain? It could be a case of mistaken identity and Dumat is still alive somewhere. It would make more sense since the altar and statues still grant things/powers to followers.

elikal71 wrote...

- Corypheus was apparently once a sort of Priest of Dumat; Dumat was the God of Silence of the "Older Gods", and obviously Dumat (and/or the Older Gods in general) actually ordered the Tevinter Mages to invade the "Golden City", Dumat and the Older Gods had promised the Tevinter Mages "the Light", but instead they found something different, a great darkness of sorts; Corypheus clearly said that what they found was not what they expected/had been promised

I would hope one day we can visit the black city and find out. Maybe end the corruption forever or something.
It did seem like Cory was sort of shocked that the golden city/power of the gods were not what they were given. Perhaps it had been tainted by Dumat himself tricking the old magisters to invade along the way. Its all a puzzle to me. (I like puzzles)

Does anyone know how many magisters were *cast down* to become the first DS according to the chantry?

From the Codex
"It was golden and beautiful once, so the story goes, until a group of powerful magister-lords from the Tevinter Imperium devised a means of breaking in. When they did so, their presence defiled the city, turning it black."

It's never mentioned how many exactly but  there was definately more than one. The intro cutscene to Origins shows 5 hooded figures I assume to be the magisters so maybe 5. But thats just my guess.

[Torax]

The Pantheon cannot be the Old Gods that Tevinter Worshiped. It is more likely that the Forgotten Ones are possibly the Old Gods. Reason being the Forgotten Ones were trapped in the Abyss while the Pantheon were trapped in the Sky by the Dreadwolf. Also the few names the Dalish Remember of the Forgotten Ones better parallel the Old Gods. The Pantheon were pictured as just and kind while the Forgotten Ones were seen as strife and danger compared. Truly neither beliefs contradict each other and both Tevinter and the Dalish think of their "Gods" of sorts as just higher beings and not their creators at all. This does leave the window open for the Maker if one wished to imply such a thing. But then still leaves questions like who made the dwarves?

Modifié par Torax, 27 juillet 2011 - 06:55 .

[Aislinn Shea]

One major player you seem to be forgetting - Flemeth. The way she is 'directing' everything, leads me to think she is Fan'Harel? She can walk among both the 'mortals' and the darkspawn (I assume as a dragon). Morrigan is working to bring back the 'Old Gods', pretty much under Flemeth's directions, even though Morrigan believes she has broken away and is doing her own thing. Freewill/fate seem to be illusions in the DA world, and everyone is being 'played' by more powerful beings, perhaps a trickster god....Fan'Harel.

[elikal71]

I have re-read some of the developer posts on the entire matter. Alas forgot the link now.

It seems to indicate the Maker is real and.... well the Maker. Which, I have to admit, is a sort of a letdown. There was however the question how you define a god as worthy to be worshipped, which leaves a question open. I dunno if you guys know Iliuvatar from Tolkiens Middle Earth and Ao from D&D? Both are creators (makers) of their world, but not counted worthy of being adored, because neither Iliuvatar nor Ao ever listen to anyone or grant any wishes or what. Ao from D&D only created the world of D&D, Faerun. And the only time he ever intervened was in the Time of Troubles, when he had enough of the doings of the Gods and expelled them from Heaven for a few years so they taste immortality. Sounds familiar, eh?

IF a Maker exists and is not a made-up persona for someone else, like Fen'Harel, he maybe is just such a distant Maker, who made the world, set things in motion and then went away. And all the rest the Chantry and Andraste said was just made up by them. I'd really hate it if the end was that the Chantry ends up as triumphant and having the truth. :/

I dunno why, but I'd rather side with the Dragons. So in my book we have 4 factions:

1. The Maker, who chose to leave thing behind, apparently LONG before the Tevinter Mages entered the Golden City
2. The Old Gods = Forgotten Ones; outsiders who were not made by the Maker and came from outside this reality (like the Great Old Ones from Lovecraft), who also taught the Tevinter humans magic and presumably are identical with the Tevinter Gods as well
3. The Elven Gods, who are said to be "of this world", and maybe are also made by the Maker, similar like the Valar were made by Iliuvatar in Middle Earth
4. Fen'Harel who is said to still be in this world, which sort of indeed hints to Flemeth

[Ausstig]

elikal71 wrote...


1. The Maker, who chose to leave thing behind, apparently LONG before the Tevinter Mages entered the Golden City

Where did you get this idea? 

Is there any indication that the Maker did not leave, just as the mages arrived?

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Just saying

[Amagoi]

Aislinn Shea wrote...

One major player you seem to be forgetting - Flemeth. The way she is 'directing' everything, leads me to think she is Fan'Harel? She can walk among both the 'mortals' and the darkspawn (I assume as a dragon). Morrigan is working to bring back the 'Old Gods', pretty much under Flemeth's directions, even though Morrigan believes she has broken away and is doing her own thing. Freewill/fate seem to be illusions in the DA world, and everyone is being 'played' by more powerful beings, perhaps a trickster god....Fan'Harel.

I'm still not convinced Flemeth is directing the flow of events.

"Is it fate or chance? I can never decide."

That always struck me that, maybe she has some precognitive powers, but she's not in control of Thedas. Does she have a plan, and is actively working towards it? I don't doubt it, but I don't think she's directing the actions of mortals like the Warden and Hawke. Maybe set them on a path she wants them to walk, but that's it.

With Morrigan working to bring back the Old Gods, maybe I need to re-play Witch Hunt. I never got that message. So one of us is mistaken. But I disagree with the idea about Fen'Harel ruling the world just for luls, or an anti-free will message inherent in Dragon Age. Change doesn't mean a return of Elven gods, or old tevinter gods. That'd just be more like.. changing back into the old. Which isn't a very radical change. More of backward sliding.

All that aside. I'm mostly disturbed at the impilcation that Corypheus is now free in a Warden's body. The guy's basically like an Archdemon, but with much more intelligence. Definatly not good.

[ArenCordial]

I think the magister's were used by Dumat. Something sent the old gods to sleep and the Old God's wanted to break that power. So they teach humans magic and blood magic. Then they teach the magister's how to enter the fade using blood magic. This has either a backlash in creating the taint or unleashed the taint that was their already, which is the master plan.

Why?

Because the taint is the only thing we know that can wake the Old Gods up. It also allows the tainted to hear the call of the Old Gods, find them, taint them to thus break whatever is keeping them in slumber.

Enter Flemeth (suspect she's an old god), who is working to free the Old Gods of the taint by the dark ritual. The darkspawn, whatever their original purpose, are being used as tools to return the Old Gods to the world.

Modifié par ArenCordial, 28 juillet 2011 - 06:14 .

[Huntress]

Ausstig wrote...

elikal71 wrote...


1. The Maker, who chose to leave thing behind, apparently LONG before the Tevinter Mages entered the Golden City

Where did you get this idea? 

Is there any indication that the Maker did not leave, just as the mages arrived?

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Just saying

Dumat tricked tavinter mages with a promese of a golden city but it was a lie, when the mages arrive there, the city was black and corrupted, the corruption was in the fade before the mages got there, maybe Dumat saw the weakeness of this mages and tricked them there knowing that they'll bring it back this corruption and spreed.. nasty work, god's are chaotic beings, they destroy and create all the time, love the lore is so rich.

I wonder why the maker left.. was he corrupted by this plague as well?
Was this city just made for this mages to show how fool's they really were and doomed for the insolence of wanting to step in the god's realms?
Notes this creature we find never mention the maker, it seems he went there, saw there was not golden city and came back, and got traped in that place by someone, not the warden's someone before the warden's.. but who.. Flemeth might knows!

Modifié par Huntress, 28 juillet 2011 - 06:35 .

[Ginkeh]

FieryDove wrote...

elikal71 wrote...

- we also know, Dumat was the first Dragon/Demon to be contaiged by the Blight and thus start the First Blight, which happend in Anderfels if I recally correct, from the expansion of DA:O and the "Architect" we know the Blight tainted the Old Gods/Dragons in a way, so they were not originally so demonic as we know them from DA:O. Which does not necessarily mean they were demonic or evil.

Do we know this for certain? It could be a case of mistaken identity and Dumat is still alive somewhere. It would make more sense since the altar and statues still grant things/powers to followers. 

Dumat could very well still be alive in some form if the theory that Andraste was the Dumat OGB is true, which is a theory I like a lot.
No one knows though, I reckon.

Modifié par Ginkeh, 28 juillet 2011 - 07:00 .