161 réponses à ce sujet

[Varen Spectre]

Gatt9 wrote...

Do you have any idea how epicly ironic it is that you just accused someone else of hyperbole?  Especially given the sentence that preceeded it?

I'll help you out.  Please link us to your survey of every gamer on the planet that conclusively shows that the "Majority" feels as you claim.

You very often make grandiose claims that are clearly wrong,  or come up with blown out of proportion hyperbole in an attempt to "Defend" Bioware from all criticism.

Case in point,  ME2's AI was mindnumbingly bad,  even by 1990's standards.  "Go to this point,  stand there,  and repeat actions endlessly" weren't acceptable by the end of the 90's.  Here you are claiming it wasn't horrible.  It's seriously not much better than playing Area 51.

I'll head off the response now by reiterating,  sites have already been shown to review publishers,  not games.  DA2 showed that pretty clearly.

The most ironic part of all is,  the people criticising Bioware are trying to help,  and your blind defense doesn't.

Wouldn't it be better to discuss Mass Effect 1 or 2's A.I. or other elements or their quality in general in separate thread? Or maybe PM Phaedon if you don't like his style?

EDIT: But, thank you for giving credit to people who are pointing out some details they personally did not enjoy that much and are trying to suggest new (other) solutions. I guess, majority of posters here (including me) really like Mass Effects and are just trying to make them even better. Though obviously, the opinions what is better are pretty different. 

Modifié par Varen Spectre, 29 juillet 2011 - 12:48 .

[AlanC9]

Lumikki wrote...
How ever, buying is more in theme of ME serie than selling. I mean if Shepard finds some new technology, it would make sense to buy it. How ever, Shepards selling something doesn't make much sense, because only reason to sell is to get more money. So, assumption is that Shepard doesn't have money, what if Shepard has?

Yeah, that's the problem. You'd think TIM would have issued Shepard an AmEx Platinum card, or whatever the ME equivalent is. Cerberus can't be simultaneously wealthy and broke. (ME1 was much, much worse -- unlike the Alliance, at least Cerberus coughed up some cash after a mission)

Same thing with mining -- Cerberus has other ships, so why aren't they gathering the minerals?

Modifié par AlanC9, 29 juillet 2011 - 01:56 .

[Lumikki]

Gatt9 wrote...

The most ironic part of all is,  the people criticising Bioware are trying to help,  and your blind defense doesn't.

Yes, many people here are trying to help Bioware with they game critism.

But before anyone can REALLY help Bioware with they games, people have to understand what THE GAME what they are criticising really is and not just view point as what they self want that game to be. Because pushing persons own perspective into game what doesn't even fit into the game, is not helping.

Modifié par Lumikki, 29 juillet 2011 - 02:10 .

[Whatever42]

AlanC9 wrote...

Lumikki wrote...
How ever, buying is more in theme of ME serie than selling. I mean if Shepard finds some new technology, it would make sense to buy it. How ever, Shepards selling something doesn't make much sense, because only reason to sell is to get more money. So, assumption is that Shepard doesn't have money, what if Shepard has?

Yeah, that's the problem. You'd think TIM would have issued Shepard an AmEx Platinum card, or whatever the ME equivalent is. Cerberus can't be simultaneously wealthy and broke. (ME1 was much, much worse -- unlike the Alliance, at least Cerberus coughed up some cash after a mission)

Same thing with mining -- Cerberus has other ships, so why aren't they gathering the minerals?

Yeah, shoehorning an economy into a game where the character can manufacture whatever equipment is needed and works for a super-rich organization is just throwing a bone to that feature.

I think for it to work, you would need an economy in something that Cerberus couldn't provide easily. However, I'm not sure what that would be. 

In ME3, it might be different. The alliance might not be able to provide Shepard with limitless cash.

Not that this is a huge deal for me. CRPGs have long had mechanics that don't really make sense.

[Phaedon]

Varen Spectre wrote...

Well, again we are misunderstanding each other a lot:lol: like soo many times before:pinched: ...

But, at least I know your opinion on one of the asked options. And I agree, like I stated myself, I would not want it that way either.

Now for the second and more important part of the question... What if there was some kind of centralized(?) inventory...

(again, I'll use a picture, to make myself more understandable though I do not propose it to work / look that way - it is an old picture, I made for a different thread)



in which player could select an item... and new screen dedicated solely to that item with all the necessary options, stats and upgrades would appear...



(maybe something like this or basically the weapon bench (screen) from ME 3 for weapons but accessible from inventory screen)

I guess, this is what you would call "central point of acces" (I might be wrong again though^_^) and this was my main question in the first place - What do you think about it in general and what do you think about it being available to player throughout the whole game / missions?

No, other than the central point of access, I really don't think that we misunderstood.

Your suggestion is perfectly valid and very constructive, but I'll have to be honest and say that I don't like it. I don't hate it either, I just dislike it, I have explained why. 

That type of centralized inventory will always have rather limited space, maybe not as limited as in that old pic. but definitely more limited than other inventories without this type of management system.

I'm not really sure why you consider it necessary. Upgrades are not standalone, and unless you go old-school adventure inventory style, you won't be able to combine them with anything from there.

Having them being brought up, not only in the visual customization screen, but especially only to the parts/weapons they are compatible with, lowers unecessary complexity and makes the system more accessible.

I should have clarified on what I consider "centralized point of access". ME1 had a centralized inventory, everything could be accessed from a single menu, ME2 had several different menus, hence a decentralized inventory. ME2 also had the private terminal which acted as a shortcut to all of the different menus, without combining them into one, which explains why I consider it a centralized point of access and not a centralized inventory.

[Arppis]

Inventory is great, if it's done in bit more realistic manner.

[HTTP 404]

its always one extreme or another is it? haha.

I highly doubt it will "go back" to me1 inventory. Me1 inventory is unique is unlike any inventory in other games for that matter. I'm sure itll be highly condensed and much more manageable.

[Mr_Steph]

TexasToast712 wrote...

Shotokanguy wrote...

It wouldn't really make sense to be able to sell guns and loot...it broke ME1's economy, and besides...they have a minifacturing system in the armory on the SR2. They could just keep making more guns on top of the ones they find and be even more rich.

You should be able to buy weapons and armor, and sell special items.

This. The ME1 inventory sucked.

QFT!

[Iakus]

Mr_Steph wrote...

TexasToast712 wrote...

Shotokanguy wrote...

It wouldn't really make sense to be able to sell guns and loot...it broke ME1's economy, and besides...they have a minifacturing system in the armory on the SR2. They could just keep making more guns on top of the ones they find and be even more rich.

You should be able to buy weapons and armor, and sell special items.

This. The ME1 inventory sucked.

QFT!

As I keep saying, why does the return of inventory have to be ME1 style?  Why does it have to be one or the other?  Is it not possible that an alternative solution may have been found?  Something along the lines of KOTOR or Dragon Age, or Alpha Protocol, or Deus Ex.  

ME1 was a poorly implemented inventory system.  But ME2 had a boring system.  THere are other methods out there, who's to say another way wasn't found?

[Lumikki]

iakus wrote...

As I keep saying, why does the return of inventory have to be ME1 style?  Why does it have to be one or the other?  Is it not possible that an alternative solution may have been found?  Something along the lines of KOTOR or Dragon Age, or Alpha Protocol, or Deus Ex.  

ME1 was a poorly implemented inventory system.  But ME2 had a boring system.  THere are other methods out there, who's to say another way wasn't found?

The real difference of these systems is in how items it self have been handeled. One has induvidual items and other has just model of every different item. That's the real difference, it's one or other, because there isn't anything between them. Just different execution of one or other.

Modifié par Lumikki, 29 juillet 2011 - 08:15 .

[Phaedon]

iakus wrote...
As I keep saying, why does the return of inventory have to be ME1 style?  Why does it have to be one or the other?  Is it not possible that an alternative solution may have been found?  Something along the lines of KOTOR or Dragon Age, or Alpha Protocol, or Deus Ex.  

ME1 was a poorly implemented inventory system.  But ME2 had a boring system.  THere are other methods out there, who's to say another way wasn't found?

Boring?!

You'll need a better argument if you are going to propose a centralized inventory. What does boring mean anyway? It definitely didn't have you searching over slight alterations in minor stats. What exactly is the point anyway?

Implementing the Deus Ex system is of course out of the question. Not only does it not have a party inventory, but the limited inventory doesn't fit Mass Effect, even if it is for weapons or armour only. You always have a set of armour and at least one weapon, which makes that system invalid.

The one of KOTOR? Melee weapons are of course non-existant, and squadmates hold several weapon types at once. For it to work past that point, you'd have to change it to the point that it is unrecognizable -if that is even possible-. The only significance with the rest of the inventory are the different armour parts. It may have worked relatively well in KOTOR, but it wouldn't work when you actually have several different races that have no access to some items.

The one in DA? Yes, what's with it? Weapon selection works just like the ME games. For the armour parts, you have the same problem as above.

The thing is, we can only hope for some tweaks, particularly with armour customization. It worked way better for Shepard in ME2 than any of those RPGs, but it would of course not work with the various races of squadmates. At best we can hope for the Shepard system in ME2 to be repeated for squadmates as well.

[AlanC9]

I agree with Lumikki -- the KotOR and ME1 inventories are functionally (edit:nearly) identical (except that you need workbenches to swap weapon parts in KotOR). The difference is that in ME1 Bio took brain-dead traditional RPG item progression and implemented it in a soul-crushingly obvious fashion, while in KotOR they disguised the mechanic.

I actually appreciate ME1's honesty

Modifié par AlanC9, 29 juillet 2011 - 08:20 .

[Iakus]

AlanC9 wrote...

I agree with Lumikki -- the KotOR and ME1 inventories are functionally (edit:nearly) identical (except that you need workbenches to swap weapon parts in KotOR). The difference is that in ME1 Bio took brain-dead traditional RPG item progression and implemented it in a soul-crushingly obvious fashion, while in KotOR they disguised the mechanic.

I actually appreciate ME1's honesty

ME suffere from three problems

1 )It rained loot

2) There was no way to decline to pick anything up, 

3)  The inventory tables were badly done:  nothing stacked, they couldn't be sorted.

ME2's loot was restricted to maybe 2-4 weapons per type.  Sure the Carnifex was unique, just like everyone else's.  Shepard's was the same as Mordins' was the same as Miranda's was teh same as Jack's.  No customization possible.  No variety.  Bo-ring.  Only with heavy weapons was any variety possible

Then there's armor.  SHep had very few components to add to armor.  Squadmates got none at all.

Now if ME 3 could

Increase the number and variety of weapons and armor withough bringing back loot storms
Reintroduce modding to further increase variety
Give us the option to refuse to pick up items we don't need
lay out the inventory in simple, easy to use tables

Then I will say that Biowre found a happy medium.  Because as far as I 'm concerned, neither ME1 nor ME2 did inventory right.

[Varen Spectre]

Phaedon wrote...

That type of centralized inventory will always have rather limited space, maybe not as limited as in that old pic. but definitely more limited than other inventories without this type of management system.

I'm not really sure why you consider it necessary. Upgrades are not standalone, and unless you go old-school adventure inventory style, you won't be able to combine them with anything from there.

Having them being brought up, not only in the visual customization screen, but especially only to the parts/weapons they are compatible with, lowers unecessary complexity and makes the system more accessible.

Fair enough, thx for the answers. I guess, the only remaining thing to do is maybe to provide little bit of explanation of my perspective on access to inventory, weapons, items, etc or more like reasons why I like inventories... Please note, I like both Mass Effects tremendously and what I write is not meant as criticism, let alone as complaining. It's purely for the sake of hypothetical discussion of two big fans of an excellent game with somewhat different preferences.

The central principle I always try to pursue and prefer is... freedom or... freedom of choice to be accurate. Not only with respect to number of choices, but also with respect to when, where and I how I can choose them. And my ratio is simple - the more freedom the game provides me with - the better. Well, unless it would completely break the immersion (e.g. main character who is able to fight while supposedly carrying loads of heavy armors, etc.).

So, an inventory or some kind of menu which would allow me to control and choose what my character carries at particular moment of the game would be very useful for me and therefore... 

... when I look at Mass Effect 2, as excellent game as it IMO is, with respect to inventory and item / weapon management , I see a game that:
- does not allow me to pick weapons from deceased enemies and switch them with my own (I always perceive it as a step towards freedom of choice and realism) - I admit, it is not a feature exclusive to inventories but it is usualy an important part of inventory mechanics. 
- does not allow me to drop particular type of weapon and pick weapon of different type instead (maybe it may look useless or too spoiled, but for example, sometimes I would have gladly dropped my shotgun and picked two assault / sniper rifles with different parameters) or even drop weapon in general (for the sake of feeling of freedom) 
- allows me to re-equip my character only in specific places - at weapon lockers - which I felt were little bit immersion breaking because, IRC, they all looked the same (which is unlikely given the variety of locations) and sometimes they were placed in such locations (collectors' ship, appartment in hotel) that I perceived them as sacrifice of design in favor of gameplay
- does not allow me to pause a game and admire my weapons whenever I want^_^
- hypothetically (lol, that sounds like an Elcor): a game that would not have allowed me to change weapon upgrades whenever I wanted and thus would not have allowed me to prepare for particular encounter in a best way possible, providing that it had switchable upgrades

Not to mention that more customizable inventory would allow me to make some interesting management choices (e.g. should I take more grenades or should I take more medigel) and I have always loved that tactical aspect of inventory. 

Well, those are some of my favorite effects of some of the good inventories I have seen. They allow me to do all the abovementioned whenever I want which is truly great. So, like I said, I loved Mass Effect 2 despite the fact it did not have any of those... But, if I had a chance:lol:...

Modifié par Varen Spectre, 29 juillet 2011 - 09:42 .

[Phaedon]

iakus wrote...
ME suffere from three problems

Nope. 

1 )It rained loot

Wouldn't have been a problem if the loot was actually useful and not the reiteration of the exact previous weapon.

2) There was no way to decline to pick anything up,

Again, wouldn't have been a problem if the items you picked up were even remotely different to each other in use. 

3)  The inventory tables were badly done:  nothing stacked, they couldn't be sorted.

Definitely not a problem. It was sorted based on stats, which would have solved the problem normally.

ME2's loot was restricted to maybe 2-4 weapons per type.  Sure the Carnifex was unique, just like everyone else's.  Shepard's was the same as Mordins' was the same as Miranda's was teh same as Jack's.  No customization possible.  No variety.  Bo-ring.  Only with heavy weapons was any variety possible

Then there's armor.  SHep had very few components to add to armor.  Squadmates got none at all.

Now if ME 3 could

Increase the number and variety of weapons and armor withough bringing back loot storms
Reintroduce modding to further increase variety


Then I will say that Biowre found a happy medium.  Because as far as I 'm concerned, neither ME1 nor ME2 did inventory right.

ME2 weapons + DLC give enough variety imo, so that would be certainly easy to do.

Give us the option to refuse to pick up items we don't need
lay out the inventory in simple, easy to use tables

Completely unecessary. Refusing to pick up items would also mess with the progression.

[AlanC9]

iakus wrote...

ME suffere from three problems

1 )It rained loot

2) There was no way to decline to pick anything up, 

3)  The inventory tables were badly done:  nothing stacked, they couldn't be sorted.

Well, I'd add a couple more problems. Item progression with many tiers is silly in a universe like ME's, and buying your own equipment is sillier yet. 

Concerning point 2: how would an option to not pick up an item be any different from the option to omni-gel the item? 

Modifié par AlanC9, 29 juillet 2011 - 09:15 .

[Lunatic LK47]

AlanC9 wrote...

iakus wrote...

ME suffere from three problems

1 )It rained loot

2) There was no way to decline to pick anything up, 

3)  The inventory tables were badly done:  nothing stacked, they couldn't be sorted.

Well, I'd add a couple more problems. Item progression with many tiers is silly in a universe like ME's, and buying your own equipment is sillier yet. 

Concerning point 2: how would an option to not pick up an item be any different from the option to omni-gel the item? 

Let me add another problem to your list Alan:

Concerning point #3: You had to buy multiple copies of the same damn gun for each squadmate in ME1.

[Lunatic LK47]

Phaedon wrote...

ME2 weapons + DLC give enough variety imo, so that would be certainly easy to do.

While I agree with that statement, I shouldn't have to rely on DLC just to fill up the variety. I actually hope the Firepower weapons are in vanilla ME3 instead of "LOLZ, you need to buy another Firepower pack just to access those weapons."

[Lumikki]

Varen Spectre wrote...

- does not allow me to pick weapons from deceased enemies and switch them with my own (I always perceive it as a step towards freedom of choice and realism) - I admit, it is not a feature exclusive to inventories but it is usualy an important part of inventory mechanics.

Of course ME2 doesn't allow you pick up, because there is NOTHING to pick up. Because there is no induvidual items. You don't pick up what you allready have. That's the main difference.

- does not allow me to drop particular type of weapon and pick weapon of different type instead (maybe it may look useless or too spoiled, but for example, sometimes I would have gladly dropped my shotgun and picked two assault / sniper rifles with different parameters) or even drop weapon in general (for the sake of feeling of freedom)

Of course not because ME2 doesn't have induvidual items. If you drop item, then you are without it  or more correctly there is nothing to drop and there is nothing to pick up than same item, because you allready have the other items.  This would be more like choise, let me be without this item for while. What is pointless because you arrive same as not using it. Remember there is no two same assult rifles in system where is no induvidual items. Having two different assult rifle is other matter.

- allows me to re-equip my character only in specific places - at weapon lockers - which I felt were little bit immersion breaking because, IRC, they all looked the same (which is unlikely given the variety of locations) and sometimes they were placed in such locations (collectors' ship, appartment in hotel) that I perceived them as sacrifice of design in favor of gameplay

Now this isn't really connected to any inventory. You mean ability swap weapons from fly. That would also be impression breaker, because you did re-equip in Normandy, when you did go in missions. You choosed what you did take with you. Usually ability re-equip in missions in ME2 happens only when YOU found new weapon in missions, so game allows you redefine you weapons inside mission too in that case.

- does not allow me to pause a game and admire my weapons whenever I want^_^

Eh?

- hypothetically (lol, that sounds like an Elcor): a game that would not have allowed me to change weapon upgrades whenever I wanted and thus would not have allowed me to prepare for particular encounter in a best way possible, providing that it had switchable upgrades

Modify weapons in missions? I ques it could be possible, but would that be pretty big impression breaker too?

Not to mention that more customizable inventory would allow me to make some interesting management choices (e.g. should I take more grenades or should I take more medigel) and I have always loved that tactical aspect of inventory.

Only two of you comment was anyway connected to inventory system differences, rest are more general design.

Modifié par Lumikki, 29 juillet 2011 - 11:05 .

[Apathy1989]

TexasToast712 wrote...

Shotokanguy wrote...

It wouldn't really make sense to be able to sell guns and loot...it broke ME1's economy, and besides...they have a minifacturing system in the armory on the SR2. They could just keep making more guns on top of the ones they find and be even more rich.

You should be able to buy weapons and armor, and sell special items.

This. The ME1 inventory sucked.

+1

ME1 inventory sucked.
ME2 was far superiour, although too dumbed down.

I only hope that ME3 will be similar to ME2, except have upgrade slots and tweaking of your guns on the normandy. Purchase upgrades at planets/stations or find a blueprint in a mission. Anything else doesn't make sense.


Edit: You are saving the galaxy with citadel and alliance support. Looting the crap guns off your enemies makes no sense. Stopping even mid battle to loot corpses does not make sense. Finding a research cache? That makes sense, and then you have the upgrade for all teammates instead of waiting for random spawns to give you enough for the team.

Modifié par Apathy1989, 29 juillet 2011 - 10:42 .

[AlanC9]

Lunatic LK47 wrote...


Let me add another problem to your list Alan:

Concerning point #3: You had to buy multiple copies of the same damn gun for each squadmate in ME1.

Good point.

The more I think about this, the stranger it seems. ME's lore is set up to make loot irrelevant and inventory minimal at best. Why did they write that lore for ME1 if they were going to do that inventory system? It's like the designers weren't talking to the writers.

[Lumikki]

AlanC9 wrote...

The more I think about this, the stranger it seems. ME's lore is set up to make loot irrelevant and inventory minimal at best. Why did they write that lore for ME1 if they were going to do that inventory system? It's like the designers weren't talking to the writers.

I think, it was because they made compromizes between gameplay and lore. They also did not know that time how to do it differently, then how it's allways done in they games. I assume this because it was changed between games. If they would have known, then compromize would not have been needed.

Modifié par Lumikki, 29 juillet 2011 - 11:01 .

[Someone With Mass]

If they keep ME2's inventory system and add a good barter system in ME3, along with improving the variety of the upgrades and have a decent amount of weapon mods, I'm happy.

[Varen Spectre]

Lumikki wrote...

Of course ME2 doesn't allow you pick up, because there is NOTHING to pick up. Because there is no induvidual items. You don't pick up what you allready have. That's the main difference.

- Well, first things first:lol:: I hope that you are aware of the fact that I am presenting my opinions and preferences without any desire to force them on anyone else. That being said, I'll gladly try to explain them and ratio behind them in greater detail. -

Yes, inventory system on it's own without collectable items would be a little bit weird. So... yes another part of my wish... I guess was... "individual items" like you call them. Something like Witcher 2, upcoming Deus Ex Human Revolution or even Halo Combat Evolved have. Halo and Witcher 2 are games with similar or even more frantic action and Witcher has ton of cutscenes and dialogues just like Mass Effect, yet they both allow player to pick items from defeated enemies. So, I guess, I would have liked them in Mass Effect as well. 

If the inventory was small enough not to be confusing and if there was enough of sufficiently different and distinguishable weapons, I would have liked such concept. Besides, Halo did not even have a lot of weapons, yet it allowed player to switch them whenever he wanted. So, Mass Effect has much better odds to come up with much more impressive arsenal. 

Of course not because ME2 doesn't have induvidual items. If you drop item, then you are without it  or more corrctly there is nothing to drop and there is nothing to pick up than same item, because you allready have the other items.  This would be more like choise, let me be without this item for while. What is pointless because you arrive same as not using it. Remember there is no two same assult rifles in system where is no induvidual items. Having two different assult rifle is other matter.

Well I was especially going after the situation in which I could kill an enemy with, let's say new type of sniper rifle which has rate of fire and damage different from my current one. Now with Mass Efffect 2, the best I could have hoped for, was to find such rifle leaning against the wall somewhere nearby and click "use" on it to have it automatically switched with my current sniper rifle and maybe hope to find a weapon locker nearby as well, so that I could take it back, if it turned out that I did not like it. All that without much choice and without any management.

Now compare it to scenario, where I would activate my inventory, check the weapons I currently have, decide which one of them I find the least useful, drop it, and pick up my new sniper rifle. Now I could have two sniper rifles. And I may like and keep them both because one has fast rate of fire and is good against weaker but more numerous enemies and the other is the exact opposite and is useful against stronger ones. Or if I decide that I don't like one of them, I could drop it and pick up my previous or any other weapon I find during my mission. Either way, I have both more options and more responsibility.

Now this isn't really connected to any inventory. You mean ability swap weapons from fly. That would also be impression breaker, because you did re-equip in Normandy, when you did go in missions. You choosed what you did take with you. Usually ability re-equip in missions in ME2 happens only when YOU found new weapon in missions, so game allows you redefine you weapons inside mission too in that case.

I would say it kind of is. I mean, I still need some kind of menu which would allow me to "swap weapons on the fly". But like I said, it does not have to be an inventory, just a menu which would allow me to check and change my weapons and their upgrades whenever I want to.

Eh?

I meant something like viewing weapons in Metal Gear Solid 4. Mass Effect 3's "bench screen" seems to be little bit similar to it. So the best way I could describe this wish would be - to have Mass Effect 3's bench screen accessible from my inventory. 

Modify weapons in missions? I ques it could be possible, but would that be pretty big impression breaker too?

Well, it were my preferences I was talking about. So, I could say that I am somehow put up with negatives related to it. Not sure... what... do you mean by impression breaker but I take it as something negative. So I guess I am probably at peace with it.

Only two of you comment was anyway connected to inventory system differences, rest are more general design.

O.K. I admit, after all, game mechanics are usually very closely related to each other.

Modifié par Varen Spectre, 30 juillet 2011 - 12:25 .