184 réponses à ce sujet

[bEVEsthda]

Stanley Woo wrote...

What does it mean that you find the art style "generic in every way," yet go on to say how distinctive it is and how much it affects you? i think you're confusing "generic" with "dislike."

Nobody but Bioware people in promotions have called DA2 art direction "distinctive" (and a few young parrots who have adopted exactly the same language, but those don't count). It's funny that you should use that word now. Goes to show how deep this "generic" vs "distinctive" perception of Dragon Age styles is within Bioware. Like someone is thinking with catch phrases. DA2 art direction is not distinctive. It's a mishmash of borrowed styled. It lacks cohesion and is often quite ugly, to be frank. And some styling elements are, due to their frequency and/or very obvious "inspiration", very... - how should I put this politely, don't think I can, so ok, I won't say anything at all, - but I am talking about Tidus, his grandmother, spikes, feathers and horns.

Now I have to say this, that I'm entirely OK with the water color effect (and that is distinctive). I kinda like that somewhat, even if I like DA:O (also painted look) goache/oil effect much better. But that's just me personally. I suppose most people just want more realism though. I'm not OK with the designs though, nor the animations.

Rather than a long rant here, which might feature not so nice language, I'd like to think that I have already commented how I feel about DA2 and DA:O art direction in my multiple "Awesome" sequences in 'Hilarious Pictures', (posted on page 28, 31, 35, 42), and in my thread on armor and manufacture.

Finally I have this exaspered question: Why didn't you just simply make multiple different franchises within the same IP? If you wanted so badly to do this style for console action romps, comic books and animated movies?
I mean I would have just thought, "cool, more DA" and probably bought the stuff too. Now, the situation is completely different.

[csfteeeer]

Travie wrote...

This bioware team already admitted that they didn't want to put too much effort into "thing people don't spend much time looking at."

Anyone remember the developer diary that flatly stated that there were 10s of thousands of books in the mage tower, and they regretted putting that much time into something that people didn't spend much time looking at?

Obviously they went the completely wrong direction there, people love detail. It adds immensely to replayability.

I Still can't believe someone would actually say that in an Interview.

[Morroian]

csfteeeer wrote...

Travie wrote...

This bioware team already admitted that they didn't want to put too much effort into "thing people don't spend much time looking at."

Anyone remember the developer diary that flatly stated that there were 10s of thousands of books in the mage tower, and they regretted putting that much time into something that people didn't spend much time looking at?

Obviously they went the completely wrong direction there, people love detail. It adds immensely to replayability.

I Still can't believe someone would actually say that in an Interview.

For gods sake how many times does it have to be said that was David Silverman the head of marketing not a developer. He has nothing to do with development.

errant_knight wrote...

Seriously? Wow. Those things that 'no one cared about' were the things that maked the world feel vibrant, with a real history, and npcs who had avtual lives rather than just being props. I can't believe thaty said that. I assumed it was a cost cutting measure because they didn't have enough time to make a game of DA:)'s quality, not an actual design decision. .

As above it wasn't a design decision.

Modifié par Morroian, 28 juillet 2011 - 01:11 .

[Raycer X]

Maybe if DA2's art style was a literal bit more painterly?? IE: Like a realistic portrait, pretty close to real, but far enough to know that it's a painting. Afterall, DA2 is a story being told, so shouldn't Varric be metaphorically "painting" the story of the Champion as the audience listens??

[OdanUrr]

Raycer X wrote...

Maybe if DA2's art style was a literal bit more painterly?? IE: Like a realistic portrait, pretty close to real, but far enough to know that it's a painting. Afterall, DA2 is a story being told, so shouldn't Varric be metaphorically "painting" the story of the Champion as the audience listens??

Personally, using the "Varric is telling a story" explanation seems like an easy cop out. It has been used several times over to explain different issues concerning DA2 and while it may apply to some, it cannot apply to all. For instance, I could say something like, "The art is not too cluttered with details because Varric, as a storyteller, puts more of an emphasis on the story itself."  

I could also use this argument to explain why certain NPCs look like the hostages from CS1.6, "Well, Varric couldn't have possibly known all these people so he doesn't know what they look like, something that is reflected by the game itself as you play it." I can even use it on re-used maps, "You know what they say, you've seen one cave you've seen them all. Varric shares that sentiment."

What it comes down to is that some of these decisions were made due to time constraints more than they had to do with DA2's story. Where do these time constraints come from? From a decision to reboot the art style for DA2 on practically every level (I'm actually trying to come up with an example of something left untouched). This is not to say the reboot was a bad thing. Personally, I dig the new Qunari look, now they look more like the honorable warriors I had in mind. On the other end of the spectrum (well, not quite) you have the elves. While I appreciate that they tried to differentiate them from humans, I think they still have to work on it.

PS: Details matter. We may not praise them enough, but we do notice them.

Modifié par OdanUrr, 28 juillet 2011 - 03:18 .

[errand48]

I love how Flemeth looks now, if she had looked that good in DAO i would have had an affair with her rather then Morigan.
Also like the new look of the Quinari, makes them more fearsome then Sten was. The rest specially the elves went from good to Blah. The game does not draw me into it's world like DAO and Awakening or Baldur's Gate did.

[bEVEsthda]

scyphozoa wrote...

Quite the opposite for me. I think the new art style is excellent. Too many games, RPGs, Shooters, stealth action, platformer, every genre and style, are BROWN and GREY.

I can't tell you how much I hate BROWN and GREY games. So to see DA2 employ such a vibrant palette of colors is a vast improvement from the relatively brown and grey DAO.

You're either crazy, have never played DAO and is just winging it, or have a very short memory and just played Legacy.

You see - it's DA2 that is BROWN and GREY and DAO that is vibrant.

[FieryDove]

Morroian wrote...

For gods sake how many times does it have to be said that was David Silverman the head of marketing not a developer. He has nothing to do with development.
(snip)

As above it wasn't a design decision.

Yep...here it is for those that missed it.



People should go watch all his stuff. He is very...enthusiastic when in sell mode.

I think it was a design decision since he states the reason was the graphical fidelity of the game was ruined by all the detailed areas/details in general and iso camera.

[Atakuma]

FieryDove wrote...

I think it was a design decision since he states the reason was the graphical fidelity of the game was ruined by all the detailed areas/details in general and iso camera.

They either need to scrap the engine or give it an overhaul, because the state it's in now is just sad.

[alex90c]

The thing is, David Silverman's bad marketing isn't just reserved for DA2, it applies for Mass effect 3 as well. Sounding dead while interviewing Ali Hillis (while she's all vibrant and exciting; juxtaposing them two together just made him look bad tbh) and using Mass Effect 3's setting as an excuse to say "MOARRRR COMBAT" probably pissed off a few RPG fans. On it's own yes it makes sense, but considering DA2 is what happens when Bioware try to focus overly on combat, it is a bit unsettling.

[Corto81]

Yes, it's much too bland.

Especially compared to Origins or the competition like Witcher 2 or soon Skyrim.

The characters (people, faces) are bland.... But the surroundings and the environment?

Miles behind the aforementioned games, and it feels to me like I described in another thread...

When you're a kid, you draw your own comics, cartoons, etc.
And you pay attention (in your childish way ) to the people and the horses and the guns.
But the background and the environment you just sorta doodle because you're lazy and you can't be arsed.

That's how the environment in DA2 feels like to me. Sadly.

....

As for David Silverman... I think all's been said.
I'm in marketing myself, and I gotta say Silverman looks like he doesn't even know what the RPG market is looking for.

Modifié par Corto81, 28 juillet 2011 - 06:12 .

[Morroian]

I think people need to look up what bland actually means. It doesn't mean ugly.

FieryDove wrote...

I think it was a design decision since he states the reason was the graphical fidelity of the game was ruined by all the detailed areas/details in general and iso camera.

Why do I feel like I'm beating my head against a wall. David Silverman has a record of talking crap, not just with DA2. Unless you can find a comment from one of the actual devs any comment from him is worthless.

[rabbitor]

bEVEsthda wrote...
You're either crazy, have never played DAO and is just winging it, or have a very short memory and just played Legacy.

You see - it's DA2 that is BROWN and GREY and DAO that is vibrant.

Drakensang is a good example for a crpg  being vibrant, DAO was just other shades of brown and grey and bleh. 

[AudioEpics]

My general opinion is that Kirkwall as a whole does feel distinctive and atmospheric in its own way but the walls and rooms sometimes are too empty and lacking in detail. The shot of Flemeth's hut was a good example of what was better about that in Origins. On the other hand, I do think the characters look a lot better, especially the Qunari and the elves. The whole thing does look a lot sharper, smoother and more vibrant than Origins (on Xbox at least) but I do miss some of the more moodly locales like the swamp in Awakening. Nevertheless, I did "feel" the world, more than I did in other games.
I hope Dragon Age 3 will have more "ancient", mysterious settings like overgrown ruins and deep woods and things like that. But that's just because I like that kind of stuff

PS: Drakensang is a great example. I really love the look of that game! It has a Grimm, fairy tale mood to it and is incredibly evocative while still being "clean", not becoming too cluttered with superfluous detail (like Divinity II).

Modifié par AudioEpics, 28 juillet 2011 - 08:08 .

[Lux]

Redcoat wrote...

I don't know if DA2's terribly sparse environments were due to time restraints or a conscious design choice, but it makes the whole of Kirkwall feel like a ghost town.

Agreed.

I'm drawn to the immersion of RPGs like I'm drawn to those of good novels. If it's true that I don't stare "for hours" at details here and there, that certainly makes for a world much more satisfying to be on. All the novels I read come filled with little details - good movies I saw and good games I played have that in common too -; they strive to make a believable setting. That goes a long way for me to feel more attached to the imagined world and facilitates my interaction with the characters in it.

DA2, requiescat in pace. Here's to future improvements to the Dragon Age franchise.

[ssp_v]

Stanley Woo wrote...

What does it mean that you find the art style "generic in every way," yet go on to say how distinctive it is and how much it affects you? i think you're confusing "generic" with "dislike."

so, replacing elves with na'vi is called distinctive now?

[Sandbox47]

Anyone else thinks that these threads are getting less and less original as time goes by? I've seen this point at least three times before on the forums. It feels so generic. So pointless. I really don't think that more complaints will change anything.

[nijnij]

Here are some of the things I liked and disliked about the new graphics.

+ Mage robes and hats.
+ use of 3d in backgrounds (well done in Origins too : Redcliffe, Orzammar...). Liked the fact that even interior levels showed 3d elements outside the windows and not textures, this is pretty rare in games.
+ loading screens. In any big game they're a necessary evil and it's good that they were varied and quest-related/level-related.
+ female models (male model too muscular IMO this time) + smoothness of body animation
+ Lowtown + Docks design. Not so fond of Hightown and the Gallows where buildings looked a bit too geometrical.

- new colour scheme. Blood too red (dark red blood in Origins looked much cooler). Fire MUCH too bright. Some hairstyles too bright as well. New Deep Roads too orange. Dalish pattern a bit too teal and lifeless on the other hand. I like the fact that overall the colour scheme had coherence but I didn't like those extremes.
- lack of variation in enemy's looks. I don't mind fighting 40 mercenaries but they could at least look different. Same thing for darkspawns.
- darkspawn redesign btw, has been mentioned to death but still, those guys have to look invincible and disgusting, not flimsy and cute. In a sense, the new Qunari outdarkspawned the darkspawn.
- beards still look much too 3d and tapestrial, how about textures ? Why so many different textures for stubble, who shapes their stubble ? Why not instead textures for actual beards and/or different types of coverage (strong stubble texture, little stubble texture)... Seems more realistic than Donnic's clean-shaved chin and lip/messy cheeks combo.
- In-game killing blows with an interactive camera in Origins made you feel part of it. Killing blows which are a cinematic completely kill that sense of achievement.
- As much as I liked the new more "oriental" elements of Kirkwall, I missed some of the things that art direction may have deemed to "classic" in Origins. Yes, the ruins of Ostagar and massive Fereldan armours looked very lord-of-the-ringsish. Yet that was totally awesome. Don't be ashamed, bring that back please !

[Leon481]

I actually think the bland design worked for Kirkwall. That city is a thief infested rat hole and looks like one. Also considering it's history as a prison, the style makes sense. Besides, it's not like all the areas are barren. For instance, Gamlen's house and the Hawke estate had all those little details Hawke could comment on. The chantry had things like prayer books scattered around and those lit, half melted candles to make it feel like people actually worshipped there. I'm not saying it was perfect (it needed work), but the game had a lot more detail than people give it credit for.

The first problem is that there are so few distinctive areas that what we do have gets old very fast.

The other problem is the reused areas. Some of them have some great details like some ancient ruins I noticed when saving Jaravis in Act 1 or the fact that the undercity tunnels seem to be the remains of a mine, not sewers. It goes mostly unnoticed because those areas lack individual identity so we stop paying attention.

[upsettingshorts]

Bland is precisely the wrong word I'd use and I don't like the art style. It's too angular and everything feels overdesigned.

It's like they took a look at DAO - which was incredibly bland - and overcorrected.

[nitefyre410]

Leon481 wrote...

I actually think the bland design worked for Kirkwall. That city is a thief infested rat hole and looks like one. Also considering it's history as a prison, the style makes sense. Besides, it's not like all the areas are barren. For instance, Gamlen's house and the Hawke estate had all those little details Hawke could comment on. The chantry had things like prayer books scattered around and those lit, half melted candles to make it feel like people actually worshipped there. I'm not saying it was perfect (it needed work), but the game had a lot more detail than people give it credit for.

The first problem is that there are so few distinctive areas that what we do have gets old very fast.

The other problem is the reused areas. Some of them have some great details like some ancient ruins I noticed when saving Jaravis in Act 1 or the fact that the undercity tunnels seem to be the remains of a mine, not sewers. It goes mostly unnoticed because those areas lack individual identity so we stop paying attention.

I'm glad I'm not the  only  one that picked up on  the whole - "Abandon all hope"  vibe Kirkwall seems to give off and how the streets have specific chokes points that all designed to go to one place. All in All  Its very good design not  great but very good and I have defintly seen worst so its not the end of the world like SOO many seem to think

[tulwar]

sorry folks, but I disagree!

I thought the ovedrall effect of the landscape was quite enchanting.

the start of the game had a good desolete look to it, like a volcanic blasted terrain. just what I would expect from a blighted landscape.

the forest area looked lush and green and the detail was good.

Kirkwall was filled with detail, if you just stood and looked around you.

in contrast, the indoor settings, i have to admit were a little peaky and bland.

as for the characters: I agree about elf ears being too big and long, I was expecting them to start flapping and fly off.

I loved the reworking of the qunari. they now look like a distinct race of none humans. which you didn't get from origins (sten) I laso like how they incorporated Sten's name as a rank rather than a personal name.
gives them a more militiristic feel. considering that ogres are born from qunari broodmothers, the horns were a good idea.

I agree about the darkspawn in general, they weren't viscious enough, I know they are supposed to be evolving, but I'd rather they evolved into less human looking grinning skulls.

mind you they have come up trumps with the new look darkspawn in The Legacy. now that is the way to go bioware.

all in all a satisfied customer