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Anyone else think Dragon Age 2's art style is too bland?


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#76
FieryDove

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Morroian wrote...

Why do I feel like I'm beating my head against a wall. David Silverman has a record of talking crap, not just with DA2. Unless you can find a comment from one of the actual devs any comment from him is worthless.

So you are saying Marketing lies? I'm shocked Morroian! Shocked! Posted Image

Atakuma wrote...
They either need to scrap the engine or give it an overhaul, because the state it's in now is just sad.


It needed a better overhaul for consoles, it was designed for PC's. Hence why it works so well on them. For example people say large amount of critters on the screen can't be done at one time. Untrue. There were many mods in DAO that had bunches. I remember fighting like 75 DS plus assorted other critters and it didn't bog  me down.

I played DAO on an old system and had an even worse video card than I do now. (Which is still low end) So I'm not one of those the dev's are saying needs to run 8x 5000x5000 res., just because I am on pc. My system would implode. lol

Maybe DA3 can *borrow* a different engine. Or maybe they will develop a multiplatform engine in-house again if they think they can get more milage out of it than 1 game. I think it would be too expensive otherwise but who knows? They do.

Whatever the art style is for the next game I just hope there isn't an overuse of brown/tan/red. ugh

#77
Fleapants

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DA is generic fantasy with a few twists and Europe superimposed on it, so generic art is to be expected. It's not like it's the quasi-elemental plane of rainbows we're mucking about in.

The art style and game logic shift between O and 2 (anime elves, cartoon darkspawn, middle aged women going BANZAI, dudes in full plate being shaolin monks, exploding enemies) gives me rashes in private places and causes my monitor to grow warts. Nevermind me, but please consider the wellbeing of my monitor when you design DA3.

#78
Brockololly

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Redcoat wrote...
Look at the various details the designers have included - the piles of books haphazardly strewn about, the animal pelt hanging near the wall, what appears to be garlic hanging from a rope, some nug carcasses hanging near the fireplace, the firewood piled in the corner...it's these sorts of details, this "clutter" that gives the world verisimilitude; it creates the impression that people actually inhabit this place. If this location were in DA2, it'd likely be little more than a brown box with two or three props thrown in.

I don't know if DA2's terribly sparse environments were due to time restraints or a conscious design choice, but it makes the whole of Kirkwall feel like a ghost town.


I'm pretty sure it was a conscious design decision, based on trying to free up memory by getting rid of all that stuff that actually makes the environments look like lived in places and not desolate dioramas. Just as much as forcing "unique" companion outfits is in part due to freeing up memory since the character model can be just one piece and not made up of different bits like Origins.

Just take these quotes from Art Director Matt Goldman in a bunch of pre-release interviews:

From PC Gamer:

Actually it’s a doddle to see the change between Origins’ muddy,  bleary visuals and Dragon Age 2’s stark, highcontrast lines. Clearly the artistic blandness of the first game still rankles for Goldman. “Damn cheese-wheels,” he semimutters, referring to the ubiquitous  hunks of Edam deployed around Origins’ dungeons. Put in place solely to  fill up space in sparse areas, they – and similar cliche-fantasy  ephemera – distracted from the game’s overall motif, softening the point of swordblades with down-home pointlessness. Matt snaps back from his  frustrated reverie and explains: “The props are to help give context for what the area is, but overall I’d say Dragon Age 2 is a lot more  minimalist looking. The intent is to create a strong personality without getting in your face and without distracting you with all these details that don’t really do anything – they just screw up your path line and  make shadows a lower resolution.”



Matt’s background gives him a uniquely artistic perspective: “we’ve  stripped off what’s extraneous and as a result made the environments and characters sharper. The environment is basically – in terms of a band – the bassline. You have to lay down a nice thick bassline to set the  mood: it’s the backbone of the picture-making, story telling. But if  it’s too detailed then you get this disrupting camouflage problem where  you can’t tell what’s going on. So by stripping away things and looking  for opportunities to create some more dramatic silhouettes, you can  focus attention on the character.



Or at Game Informer:

Before, I think Origins was kind of like Death Dealer meets The Hobbit.
It was half really “raah, scary” and half really whimsical. We wanted
to take it into more of a desolate feel and kind of strip it down to a
hot-rod Samurai look. Not only visually, but in terms of the actual
storytelling motifs that appear in those movies. The cautionary tale was
really appropriate for DA2.


The lack of detail and life in DA2's world makes it a very boring place visually and the new art style of forcing spikes and blockiness on every single thing makes it feel not like a real world, but like a half baked game.

Redcoat wrote...
I'm glad some finally noticed  the lighting issue; nearly every single location in the game is what  mappers call "fullbright" - i.e. no lighting variation at all.

Another thing that struck me is how much worse the face textures are for  NPCs...they have have this bleached, washed-out look to them, as if no  shader effects are being applied at all. Hair and beards look  particularly bad:


Yup, the crappy lighting makes for a much less atmospheric game IMO. Just look at most any scene from Amnesia: The Dark Descent or go out at night in a lightning storm in STALKER- the lighting (and sound) is what makes those games so absorbing and immersive and atmospheric. Supposedly the lighting is something they really worked on in DA2, but its mostly a side step and in cases like the faces, they look horrible in many lighting conditions. I don't know if thats a lighting, texture or shader issue, or just DA2's ugly face morph system.

Modifié par Brockololly, 28 juillet 2011 - 02:44 .


#79
Jsixgun

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Stanley Woo wrote...

What does it mean that you find the art style "generic in every way," yet go on to say how distinctive it is and how much it affects you? i think you're confusing "generic" with "dislike."


I would argue that the darkspawn look is rather bad as well. They don't look creepy and eerie like they did before, now they look like standard grade monsters. It would be nice to evolve the art style in the next DA to bring back its dark and gritty look. 

#80
KnightofPhoenix

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What I find weird is that Mass Effect 2, despite all its flaws, was very attentive to details, more than ME1. Sometimes to absurd levels (the garbage disposal system...who uses it?). But things like that helped make it feel more alive.

Instead of improving on the original, it stripped it down "so we don't get confused and focus on the character"? Really?

#81
FieryDove

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

(the garbage disposal system...who uses it?). 


Raises hand. Posted ImagePosted Image

#82
Brockololly

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I think beyond the visuals, the animations need some work too. Like the chimpanzee hurlocks? In watching the new genlocks move around it just looks horrible in how rigid and disconnected from the world they look. Its like they're drifting around and thus lack any mass or sense of weight or momentum, which is one of my main issues with all the combat animations in DA2.

#83
KnightofPhoenix

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FieryDove wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

(the garbage disposal system...who uses it?). 


Raises hand. Posted ImagePosted Image


Me too actually :D

#84
Blastback

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

FieryDove wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

(the garbage disposal system...who uses it?). 


Raises hand. Posted ImagePosted Image


Me too actually :D

Thirded.

#85
Costin_Razvan

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

What I find weird is that Mass Effect 2, despite all its flaws, was very attentive to details, more than ME1. Sometimes to absurd levels (the garbage disposal system...who uses it?). But things like that helped make it feel more alive.

Instead of improving on the original, it stripped it down "so we don't get confused and focus on the character"? Really?


This is why ME2 was much better then Origins and DA2.

#86
Lord_Valandil

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Origins art style > II art style.

It's not just bland...it's a mixed bag. It changes some designs and recycles others from the previous game.

#87
Addai

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

What I find weird is that Mass Effect 2, despite all its flaws, was very attentive to details, more than ME1. Sometimes to absurd levels (the garbage disposal system...who uses it?). But things like that helped make it feel more alive.

Instead of improving on the original, it stripped it down "so we don't get confused and focus on the character"? Really?

I'd rather be distracted by cool things in the world.  Fail.

Hate for cheese wheels?!!  Where is King Alistair to clap this guy in irons?  I think he ought to consider what players look for in games, why we play and what gives the player satisfaction, and not what artists care about.

#88
megski

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In an action, fps game, I don't care as much about details, I'm running around shooting things, thats the focus, why should I care about details? Although, its nice to see details in these too. Did anyone play halo reach? You see the moa birds on the first level and then a few levels later in a city you see a moa bird burger stand XD. I like stuff like that, I know the focus of this game is the story and shooting, but details are important. As far as an RPG like dragon age, if I spend 30+ hours running around, having to invest my time in so many different quests, I want to see something nice to look at not barren empty spaces.

#89
tmp7704

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Brockololly wrote...

From PC Gamer:

Matt snaps back from his  frustrated reverie and explains: “The props are to help give context for what the area is, but overall I’d say Dragon Age 2 is a lot more  minimalist looking. The intent is to create a strong personality without getting in your face and without distracting you with all these details that don’t really do anything – they just screw up your path line and  make shadows a lower resolution.”

It's fascinating how someone can do a 180 turn in just two consecutive sentences, and don't even realize it.

#90
Erode_The_Soul

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Brockololly wrote...
...snip...

Matt’s background gives him a uniquely artistic perspective: “we’ve  stripped off what’s extraneous and as a result made the environments and characters sharper. The environment is basically – in terms of a band – the bassline. You have to lay down a nice thick bassline to set the  mood: it’s the backbone of the picture-making, story telling. But if  it’s too detailed then you get this disrupting camouflage problem where  you can’t tell what’s going on. So by stripping away things and looking  for opportunities to create some more dramatic silhouettes, you can  focus attention on the character.


...snip...

The lack of detail and life in DA2's world makes it a very boring place visually and the new art style of forcing spikes and blockiness on every single thing makes it feel not like a real world, but like a half baked game.


If Kirkwall had a bit more of that "disrupting camoflauge" I'm willing to bet the town would have felt more alive. Denerim in Origins for example wasn't spectacular, but the details there made it seem like it could be a bustling city. The fact that it wasn't felt more like a limitation of the technology, whereas the fact that Kirkwall was lifeless felt more like a lack of care.

Also, as an aside, I had no idea that idiotic "hot rod Samurai" thing was an honest-to-God line of marketing. I saw it being thrown around pre-release and thought it had just been made up to make fun of the streamlining that was taking place. :?

Modifié par Erode_The_Soul, 28 juillet 2011 - 04:42 .


#91
In Exile

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nitefyre410 wrote...

Agree. I like the fact that  Elves  and  Qunari look like sub races  that evolved differently  than humans . Instead Elves just being  short humans with pointy ears and the Qunari just being  big  dark skin gaint men with  white hair.     


I have a screenshot of a DA2 dwarf that looks like a DA:O qunari (dark skin + white hair). He's a vendor in Lowtown. 

#92
TEWR

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In Exile wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...

Agree. I like the fact that  Elves  and  Qunari look like sub races  that evolved differently  than humans . Instead Elves just being  short humans with pointy ears and the Qunari just being  big  dark skin gaint men with  white hair.     


I have a screenshot of a DA2 dwarf that looks like a DA:O qunari (dark skin + white hair). He's a vendor in Lowtown. 


"You wanna kill somebody? Try stabbing them!"

I love that dwarf's attempts to get me to buy something.

Also, his mouth doesn't move when he speaks. Same goes for every other merchant, and even Hahren Paivel when he says "If you walk the path of Sundermount,...."

#93
megski

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Wait, what?
["you are awesome, but you don’t know why."] [‘What if you changed the world and you don’t know how you pulled it off?’]

How is this supposed to make the player feel like they've accomplished any type of goal? This is the first time I've ever seen this interview, so I was kinda like, 'say whaa?'

#94
tmp7704

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Also, his mouth doesn't move when he speaks. Same goes for every other merchant, and even Hahren Paivel when he says "If you walk the path of Sundermount,...."

Moving mouths are just another of these details that don't really do anything.

#95
In Exile

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DA:O looked just as cartoonish to me as DA2. I just don't see the realism in DA:O.

#96
In Exile

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errant_knight wrote...
Seriously? Wow. Those things that 'no one cared about' were the things that maked the world feel vibrant, with a real history, and npcs who had avtual lives rather than just being props. I can't believe thaty said that. I assumed it was a cost cutting measure because they didn't have enough time to make a game of DA:)'s quality, not an actual design decision. How very disheartening. I suppose that's why there's no codex or item descriptions, too.


If you're like me (very low attention to detail) you'll find that the attitude is common. I don't care for the thousands of books on the floor, the fact that everything is strewn about, etc. It is not something I would even spend a second looking at... until it's not there. Because then it stands out.

That was an example of stupid cost-cutting, because even though you'd never notice it if it was there... you notice it when it wasn't.

For example, people might not notice I'm wearing a dark grey suit instead of a black one, or that my belt is brown instead of black. But they'll notice if I'm not wearing pants. 

#97
tmp7704

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In Exile wrote...

DA:O looked just as cartoonish to me as DA2. I just don't see the realism in DA:O.

There's a fair share of cartoony things in DAO. I'd say the environments furnished in semi-realistic manner were alleviating that to some degree, though. When i open the game levels in the Toolset, it's easy to see the amount of thought that went into them -- all rooms have assigned functions, e.g. and form coherent whole.

#98
TEWR

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People notice when Oghren's not wearing any pants.

#99
MorrigansLove

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Both DA:O and DA2 have awful art styles. They really need to get the BATTLEFIELD 3 engine from dice for DA3.

#100
In Exile

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The real problem with DA2 is there's no lack of coherence. Things don't look like they belong in the same world. Just compare the guard & templar armour with the champion's armour.