184 réponses à ce sujet

[megski]

MorrigansLove wrote...

Both DA:O and DA2 have awful art styles. They really need to get the BATTLEFIELD 3 engine from dice for DA3.

That game looks amazing.  

[FieryDove]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

People notice when Oghren's not wearing any pants.

Now the nightmares return, thanks a lot.

In Exile wrote...

That was an example of stupid cost-cutting, because even though you'd never notice it if it was there... you notice it when it wasn't.

For example, people might not notice I'm wearing a dark grey suit instead of a black one, or that my belt is brown instead of black. But they'll notice if I'm not wearing pants. 

Pics or it didn't happen!

[In Exile]

tmp7704 wrote...
There's a fair share of cartoony things in DAO. I'd say the environments furnished in semi-realistic manner were alleviating that to some degree, though. When i open the game levels in the Toolset, it's easy to see the amount of thought that went into them -- all rooms have assigned functions, e.g. and form coherent whole.

If it's about the environment, I'm the wrong person for it. As I said about the books lying about - I am just not detail oriented. Besides, the environment being furnished doesn't mean the furnishing themselves aren't cartoony (in DA:O the scale on everything was really off).  

[Whatsupnewyork]

I actually agree with MorrigansLove. If Dragon Age 3 had Battlefield 3's engine, Bioware would be able to do so much more with the Dragon Age world.

[Aaleel]

There was just too much empty space in the game so the places didn't really have a purpose. Like I said earlier there weren't even pews in the Chantry. You went in a Chantry in Origins, there were pews and more importantly, people in the pews. I looked like a house of worship.

Then there was stuff like this.


What is this? A Mantle piece, some bookshelves and a table in the middle of a cave. And once again the room is just huge and empty. You may not have needed 10k books all over the floor, but where they went was just awful.

Edit: And once again that ugly limestone, granite, sandstone whatever it was pasted everywhere. 

Modifié par Aaleel, 28 juillet 2011 - 05:10 .

[DragonRageGT]

Brockololly wrote...

Redcoat wrote...
Look at the various details the designers have included - the piles of books haphazardly strewn about, the animal pelt hanging near the wall, what appears to be garlic hanging from a rope, some nug carcasses hanging near the fireplace, the firewood piled in the corner...it's these sorts of details, this "clutter" that gives the world verisimilitude; it creates the impression that people actually inhabit this place. If this location were in DA2, it'd likely be little more than a brown box with two or three props thrown in.

I don't know if DA2's terribly sparse environments were due to time restraints or a conscious design choice, but it makes the whole of Kirkwall feel like a ghost town.

I'm pretty sure it was a conscious design decision, based on trying to free up memory by getting rid of all that stuff that actually makes the environments look like lived in places and not desolate dioramas. Just as much as forcing "unique" companion outfits is in part due to freeing up memory since the character model can be just one piece and not made up of different bits like Origins.

Just take these quotes from Art Director Matt Goldman in a bunch of pre-release interviews:

From PC Gamer:

Actually it’s a doddle to see the change between Origins’ muddy,  bleary visuals and Dragon Age 2’s stark, highcontrast lines. Clearly the artistic blandness of the first game still rankles for Goldman. “Damn cheese-wheels,” he semimutters, referring to the ubiquitous  hunks of Edam deployed around Origins’ dungeons. Put in place solely to  fill up space in sparse areas, they – and similar cliche-fantasy  ephemera – distracted from the game’s overall motif, softening the point of swordblades with down-home pointlessness. Matt snaps back from his  frustrated reverie and explains: “The props are to help give context for what the area is, but overall I’d say Dragon Age 2 is a lot more  minimalist looking. The intent is to create a strong personality without getting in your face and without distracting you with all these details that don’t really do anything – they just screw up your path line and  make shadows a lower resolution.”

Matt’s background gives him a uniquely artistic perspective: “we’ve  stripped off what’s extraneous and as a result made the environments and characters sharper. The environment is basically – in terms of a band – the bassline. You have to lay down a nice thick bassline to set the  mood: it’s the backbone of the picture-making, story telling. But if  it’s too detailed then you get this disrupting camouflage problem where  you can’t tell what’s going on. So by stripping away things and looking  for opportunities to create some more dramatic silhouettes, you can  focus attention on the character.”

Or at Game Informer:

Before, I think Origins was kind of like Death Dealer meets The Hobbit.
It was half really “raah, scary” and half really whimsical. We wanted
to take it into more of a desolate feel and kind of strip it down to a
hot-rod Samurai look. Not only visually, but in terms of the actual
storytelling motifs that appear in those movies. The cautionary tale was
really appropriate for DA2.

The lack of detail and life in DA2's world makes it a very boring place visually and the new art style of forcing spikes and blockiness on every single thing makes it feel not like a real world, but like a half baked game.

Redcoat wrote...
I'm glad some finally noticed  the lighting issue; nearly every single location in the game is what  mappers call "fullbright" - i.e. no lighting variation at all.

Another thing that struck me is how much worse the face textures are for  NPCs...they have have this bleached, washed-out look to them, as if no  shader effects are being applied at all. Hair and beards look  particularly bad:

Yup, the crappy lighting makes for a much less atmospheric game IMO. Just look at most any scene from Amnesia: The Dark Descent or go out at night in a lightning storm in STALKER- the lighting (and sound) is what makes those games so absorbing and immersive and atmospheric. Supposedly the lighting is something they really worked on in DA2, but its mostly a side step and in cases like the faces, they look horrible in many lighting conditions. I don't know if thats a lighting, texture or shader issue, or just DA2's ugly face morph system.

I concur.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

What I find weird is that Mass Effect 2, despite all its flaws, was very attentive to details, more than ME1. Sometimes to absurd levels (the garbage disposal system...who uses it?). But things like that helped make it feel more alive.

Instead of improving on the original, it stripped it down "so we don't get confused and focus on the character"? Really?

Well, I use it. I'm able to clean the Normandy some 57 times while listening to Zaeed! And mixing some 34 pink drinks while listening to Kasumi... *hic*

And it's not all games that treat players like "half intelligent beings" like some review mentioned about you-know-who-2. DA:O did it ... DA2? hmmm...

The secret Dragon in Orzammar's Royal Palace beats any secret that Legacy may have intended to have.

[tmp7704]

In Exile wrote...

Besides, the environment being furnished doesn't mean the furnishing themselves aren't cartoony (in DA:O the scale on everything was really off).  

That's par for the course in games which don't use first person perspective. Since there's external camera, the rooms need to be bigger to accomodate for that. Bigger rooms require bigger props to be filled in a manner that doesn't set our brain off.

There's a cool article out there on the intrawebs which used Max Payne environments to demonstrate this, but i can't find it now, it was years ago.

[tmp7704]

MorrigansLove wrote...

Both DA:O and DA2 have awful art styles. They really need to get the BATTLEFIELD 3 engine from dice for DA3.

Why? Is there anything more bland than modern concrete-filled cities rendered with full realism and entirely in shades of beige? I can just look out of window to get my fill of that.

[TEWR]

FieryDove wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

People notice when Oghren's not wearing any pants.

Now the nightmares return, thanks a lot.

I imagine John Epler's been having constant nightmares ever since he saw that pic of naked Oghren in battle

[John Epler]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

FieryDove wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

People notice when Oghren's not wearing any pants.

Now the nightmares return, thanks a lot.

I imagine John Epler's been having constant nightmares ever since he saw that pic of naked Oghren in battle

I think Joseph Conrad said it best

[Kail Ashton]

No. you're clearly looking at Origins, one of the blandest looking games in the history of generic blandness, everyone but you apparantly understood that, that's why bioware improved the entire visuals to sumth'n good & unique

Not sumth'n that looked like a badly touched up last gen game like origins, i could write a book bout how awful origins looked, DA2 is such a massive improvement i can only assume anyone that thinks it looks bad had their eyeballs removed in elective surgary and replaced with hotdogs

[In Exile]

Aaleel wrote...
What is this? A Mantle piece, some bookshelves and a table in the middle of a cave. And once again the room is just huge and empty. You may not have needed 10k books all over the floor, but where they went was just awful.

Edit: And once again that ugly limestone, granite, sandstone whatever it was pasted everywhere. 

Actually, this is the one case where I think the sprase design works, because that is the scene for the crazy mage who lives beneath a warehouse. 

[In Exile]

tmp7704 wrote...
That's par for the course in games which don't use first person perspective. Since there's external camera, the rooms need to be bigger to accomodate for that. Bigger rooms require bigger props to be filled in a manner that doesn't set our brain off.

There's a cool article out there on the intrawebs which used Max Payne environments to demonstrate this, but i can't find it now, it was years ago.

DA:O overcompensates for the camera, though. Weapon are more massive, armour is more massive, and objects are more massive (hell, *hands* are more massive) to compensate for the overhead camera. 

[In Exile]

Double post... 

Modifié par In Exile, 28 juillet 2011 - 05:19 .

[FieryDove]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I imagine John Epler's been having constant nightmares ever since he saw that pic of naked Oghren in battle

Well it was rather...shocking.

[AloraKast]

Hmmm, last night I loaded up one of my DA:O saves and was simply hanging around the camp chilling, and found myself once again completely taken in by the atmosphere around me. The music was beautiful and very fitting, full moon rode across the midnight-blue sky, I was surrounded by jutting rock, grassy moss, deep blue of the lake and the warmth of the campires... and it actually surprised me how much the whole experience affected me. I mean, after all this time, you would think the scenery and atmosphere would cease to have much of an effect on me, no matter how beautiful. But no... all those elements came together marvelously to create this wondrous atmosphere that plucked me right out of my computer chair and deposited me right there in camp, beside my Warden... and what's more, it continues to do that, apparently no matter how much time passes.

Two Worlds 2, imo, have truly beautiful graphics/art style.  Very realistic and beautiful... even when I am exploring the desert region, I can almost feel my throat getting dry and the sand getting everywhere... and when I am by the shore... oh my, the water is so clear and unpolluted, all I wish to do it immerse myself in that clear water butt naked.

The Witcher 2's graphics are, again imo, one of the best (if not THE best) I have experienced to date. Yes, they create this amazing atmosphere, but what's even more important, they are very (and I do mean VERY) realistic... even more so than Two Worlds 2.

By comparison, DA2 graphics and art style feel... eh, the only word that comes to mind is cartoonish. And, hence, the whole game experience lacks that note which aids in immersing myself in the world around me.

[tmp7704]

JohnEpler wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I imagine John Epler's been having constant nightmares ever since he saw that pic of naked Oghren in battle

I think Joseph Conrad said it best

this one?

"Facing it, always facing it, that's the way to get through. Face it."

[Taldira]

tmp7704 wrote...

MorrigansLove wrote...

Both DA:O and DA2 have awful art styles. They really need to get the BATTLEFIELD 3 engine from dice for DA3.

Why? Is there anything more bland than modern concrete-filled cities rendered with full realism and entirely in shades of beige? I can just look out of window to get my fill of that.

What this have to do with an art style, or that an engine and the game made on that engine are two completely different things, is beyond me.

[FieryDove]

In Exile wrote...

Double post... 

You ninja'd me.

Weapons are the same size and there is massive armor that is just as massive if not more in DA2 so the camera excuse is just that. imho

[axl99]

DA2? Cartoonish? Really? I haven't noticed.

Now Brutal Legend? That was cartoonish.

[tmp7704]

Taldira wrote...

What this have to do with an art style, or that an engine and the game made on that engine are two completely different things, is beyond me.

bingo.

[John Epler]

tmp7704 wrote...

JohnEpler wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I imagine John Epler's been having constant nightmares ever since he saw that pic of naked Oghren in battle

I think Joseph Conrad said it best

this one?

"Facing it, always facing it, that's the way to get through. Face it."

I really ought to be less ambiguous, as this sort of thing tends to happen a lot

[tmp7704]

JohnEpler wrote...

I really ought to be less ambiguous, as this sort of thing tends to happen a lot

Sorry; it just fit so well, i couldn't resist

[In Exile]

FieryDove wrote...
You ninja'd me.

Me? Never.... 

Weapons are the same size and there is massive armor that is just as massive if not more in DA2 so the camera excuse is just that. imho

2H's are sometimes bigger in DA2. Don't get me wrong - I'm not praising DA2. I was just pointing out why I think DA:O was cartoony. 

[TEWR]

JohnEpler wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I imagine John Epler's been having constant nightmares ever since he saw that pic of naked Oghren in battle

I think Joseph Conrad said it best

which quote? This one?

How does one kill fear, I wonder? How do you shoot a specter through the heart, slash off its spectral head, take it by its spectral throat?


So many quotes that seem to fit

at least I think this one fits .

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 28 juillet 2011 - 05:34 .