127 réponses à ce sujet

[Fulgrim88]

JKoopman wrote...

Koyasha wrote...

My first human noble character I created was in fact a black girl.  Once I met my family I realized that didn't work, so I rerolled and made an appropriate looking character.  It might have been nicer if they'd set it up so your family takes on key aspects of your character's appearance, sure.  But they didn't.  It's not a big deal.  I lost a whole five or so minutes in which I had the opening conversations and met my family, then I deleted the character and started again with an appropriate one.

See, this is exactly what I'm talking about. You created your character, realized that it didn't mesh with the restrictive origin and had to reroll. In essence, you're not playing the character you want to play, you're playing the character that BioWare wants you to play.

As for the "there are no africans or asians in Fereldan" argument or whatever some have been alluding to when they speak of elderly characters not making sense in context with the endings, if BioWare didn't expect people to play different ethnicities or ages then they shouldn't have included black and asian presets and wrinkled skin complexions in their character creator.

How can you still fail to see that the different ages and skintones are nothing but an offer?
So the Origins limit your background for the sake of storytelling (as does EVERY other CRPG. Every. single. one.) but you're still allowed to choose your characters looks.
If you wan't full immersion, play the young caucasian that the story wants you to be, if you wan't your character to look different and are willing to sacrifice a bit of immersion, thats ok. What would denying you the latter accomplish?

Do you really think that DAO would be better of with a "So youre some random guy with amnesia (but an AWESOME background, which, sadly, no one cares about), let's have a joining and go kill some darkspawn"-Story, just so you can be an elderly black, grizzled & experienced vet (who still happens to lack any skills)? Seriously...

[DOUGEYEMASTER]

I seem to remember big long threads of arguments on bethesda forums when oblivion came out complaining there was no back story to your char ur just a random char in prison and it has no effect on the game. basicly not every game will 100% please every player. the origins are not game breaking in fact in my opinion they do add alot of depth because after playing 2 playthroughs as a human noble warrior i pritty much know the in's and outs of the story and the stories behind the other races and problems they have, meaning now ive started as an elven rogue from denerim i cant wait to see what choices i have during certain scenarios later in the game!! makes me want to play the whole game again to see what is different!!

[purplesunset]

There is a surprising amount of parallel between this thread and the thread called "Black Human Noble"

In fact, the two threads are essentially dealing with the same EXACT issue...roleplaying. It's just that the other one got de-railed by the race aspect and this one has more focus.



One nice analogy that came up in the other thread is one between a theatre play and an rpg game. A black actor could still play the role of Hamlet in  a theatre even though the character is white. Similarly,  Bioware was nice enough to give non-white people the choice of playing their "Hamlet"

Dragon Age is therefore more of a play than an rpg in the traditional sense.

Although you can make your own character, he is still playing a Caucasian role that was created by Bioware, just like how the black actor still has to play the role created by Shakespeare.

For people who prefer to play their own character in an rpg game and not the game developer's character, this is understandably a valid issue for them.

To continue the theater analogy: Look at how many people downloaded the "white CJ" mod for Grand Theft Auto.
They were given a chance to play  "Othello" as a white actor, but they
had trouble relating and felt that they needed to download a white CJ mod.

Modifié par purplesunset, 21 novembre 2009 - 11:14 .

[Mnemnosyne]

JKoopman wrote...

Koyasha wrote...

My first human noble character I created was in fact a black girl.  Once I met my family I realized that didn't work, so I rerolled and made an appropriate looking character.  It might have been nicer if they'd set it up so your family takes on key aspects of your character's appearance, sure.  But they didn't.  It's not a big deal.  I lost a whole five or so minutes in which I had the opening conversations and met my family, then I deleted the character and started again with an appropriate one.

See, this is exactly what I'm talking about. You created your character, realized that it didn't mesh with the restrictive origin and had to reroll. In essence, you're not playing the character you want to play, you're playing the character that BioWare wants you to play.

As for the "there are no africans or asians in Fereldan" argument or whatever some have been alluding to when they speak of elderly characters not making sense in context with the endings, if BioWare didn't expect people to play different ethnicities or ages then they shouldn't have included black and asian presets and wrinkled skin complexions in their character creator.

Funny, you quote part of my post but ignore the part that speficially deals with the issue you're talking about.  Go back, read the first paragraph of the post you quoted.  Sure, the skin color issue is a bit of a hiccup, and it could be done better.  But it's not a big deal, and it's certainly not a reason to dump one of the best parts of the game, the origins, and how they tie your character in to the overall story.  There are many little details throughout the game that go back to your origin (moreso for some than others, yes, but still) and claiming the game would be better off without them is silly.

Furthermore, being a grizzled warrior or a wizened mage is background story, and it would not fit the story of Dragon's Age as it currently stands.  You want to know a reason why being old wouldn't fit the story, right off the top of my head?  The Joining is dangerous and requires a strong and young person to survive.  An old man would be unlikely to survive it.  Possible, perhaps, but unlikely enough that Duncan wouldn't pick them due to deciding they have too small a chance to survive.

aberdash wrote...

The backgrounds in Fallout and BG are
very vague leaving a lot of room for roleplaying. In BG you were taken
in by Gorion and raised in Candlekeep. Thats it, it says nothing about
what you did there. In fallout you were a vault dweller, thats it.

There's a very specific timeline in Baldur's Gate too, although you may have missed it.  It was first mentioned when Imoen said you aren't much older than her, right at the beginning of BG1, but it was explored in much more depth in Throne of Bhaal where the story of how you came into Gorion's custody in the first place was fleshed out further.  In both of those games you have about as much freedom to decide your character as you do in most of the origins.  You can pick your personality, how you react to things and how you picture yourself in the surroundings you grew up in, but overall you're limited.  You don't get to say you're a 50-year old veteran of six wars in Baldur's Gate or something of that nature.  You're about 20, if I remember correctly.  I think it even gave the exact year you were born at some point, because I seem to recall there being a mention of a certain number of years before the Time of Troubles, though I could be misremembering that point.

[Nemesis7884]

honestly, the origins are fun for one part - but also a huge amount of work wasted to 90% - nobody will play all origins... honestly... instead of all these origins i'd really appreciated if they had worked more on the story which is in the end EXTREMELY generic... its boring all-time-the-same-lord-of-the-rings-we-against-the-evil fantasy... will there ever be a rpg which comes with a decent story?

[Nemesis7884]

and yes, fallout had a better story and was also more believable in terms of decisions, being whatever you wanted... but never the less dao is a great game, and the best rpg since fallout... and the best fantasy rpg since...ummm?

[DOUGEYEMASTER]

basicly fereldon is a medeival europe parallel. the culture is primerily white caucasion. if you the player choose to go against the setting/cultural basis of the game world then thats not the developers problem. as someone just said they gave you the choice you did not have to take it. its like saying i wanted a dwarf with elven ears long legs and mage talents! The lore of the world created explains that dwarves cant use magic so its a case of accepting it and saying ok well if i want to play a mage ill play as an elf. it realy is not that big an issue to claim that the whole game was designed in the wrong way and the whole story should have been re writen! its like saying in my imagination when i play the game i want the ogres to be green and talk spanish. its just not guna fit with the game lol

[marshalleck]

Nemesis7884 wrote...

honestly, the origins are fun for one part - but also a huge amount of work wasted to 90% - nobody will play all origins... honestly... instead of all these origins i'd really appreciated if they had worked more on the story which is in the end EXTREMELY generic... its boring all-time-the-same-lord-of-the-rings-we-against-the-evil fantasy... will there ever be a rpg which comes with a decent story?

Specifics? How could it be better? What's a decent story? Give a decent plot outline, doesn't have to be anything major.

Modifié par marshalleck, 21 novembre 2009 - 11:29 .

[DOUGEYEMASTER]

Nemesis7884 wrote...

honestly, the origins are fun for one part - but also a huge amount of work wasted to 90% - nobody will play all origins... honestly... instead of all these origins i'd really appreciated if they had worked more on the story which is in the end EXTREMELY generic... its boring all-time-the-same-lord-of-the-rings-we-against-the-evil fantasy... will there ever be a rpg which comes with a decent story?

the tighter and more complex a story line (a better story line) for an rpg would usually involve much more detail on "your" char which sort of contradicts the post which is about having a wide variety of choices. + ive played all the starts up till ostergar b4 my 3rd playthrough too see which one i prefere and i found them all interesting in one way or another . 

[purplesunset]

DOUGEYEMASTER wrote...

basicly fereldon is a medeival europe parallel. the culture is primerily white caucasion. if you the player choose to go against the setting/cultural basis of the game world then thats not the developers problem. as someone just said they gave you the choice you did not have to take it. its like saying i wanted a dwarf with elven ears long legs and mage talents! The lore of the world created explains that dwarves cant use magic so its a case of accepting it and saying ok well if i want to play a mage ill play as an elf. it realy is not that big an issue to claim that the whole game was designed in the wrong way and the whole story should have been re writen! its like saying in my imagination when i play the game i want the ogres to be green and talk spanish. its just not guna fit with the game lol

I agree with you to an extent. You even seem to be referring to my post.

However, I wouldn't go so far as to completely dismiss the claims of people who would prefer to play their own character in an rpg game. It's a preference after all. Dragon Age is simply not the game for them.

Bioware did have a choice, and they chose to make Ferelden a Caucasian-only setting. There's nothing right or wrong about that. It's their artistic right , but at the same time, those people who prefer more choices in their rpg's should also be able to give their feedback.

[DOUGEYEMASTER]

all im trying to say is i buy rpgs on the merits of there story and gameplay. i then go about creating i char i would like to play but also fits in the game world. thats my preference. all im saying is you have to take into account the lore of a game world the developers have made. its like saying hmmm im interested in buying lord of the rings film then when you have bought them saying no no no peter jackson should have made the lord of the rings in space with lazer guns. its just not the point of the film.



just to be clear lol YES to choice NO to reduced emersion.



if you realy dont like the game world and the cultural choices the developers made for it dont play it.



oops guna gat myself abuse now lol

[minamber]

aberdash wrote...

minamber wrote...

...and? Picking a origin is worse than having it set for you? Because I fail to see the difference between, say, the human noble origin  in DA and the vault dweller backgound in Fallout, except for the fact that you can choose another background in DA.

The backgrounds in Fallout and BG are very vague leaving a lot of room for roleplaying. In BG you were taken in by Gorion and raised in Candlekeep. Thats it, it says nothing about what you did there. In fallout you were a vault dweller, thats it.

I wouldn't agree that the backgrounds are "vague".
First off,  your character's age (and this seems to be a major turnoff for the ones who complain about origins) is set in BG; Bhaal didn't spend years walking around as an Avatar (which btw also prevents you from making an elf if you want to be consistent, since you'd still be a child if you were one).
Second, the fact that you spent your whole life in Candlekeep limits your interactions with the rest of the world: everything is obviously new to you, the only source of knowledge you can have is second-hand.

That second point also translates directly for Fallout. How can you say "you were a vault dweller that's it"? Again that "simple" fact must influence your whole interaction with the rest of the world, because everything is new to your character, and he's a stranger everywhere. That seems a huge part of the PC's background to me.

Again, I fail to see the difference with DA's origins. They seem to have about the same amount of importance to the story and choice left to the player as the backgrounds you like so much. They do have one advantage in that the player's choice in terms of background actually have an influence in DA.

[J.O.G]

minamber wrote...
First off,  your character's age (and this seems to be a major turnoff for the ones who complain about origins) is set in BG; Bhaal didn't spend years walking around as an Avatar.

Yes he did. The Bhaalspawn were not conceived during the Time of Troubles, otherwise your character would be about 10 years old at the start of BG1. Bhaal, god of murder, foresaw that he will be murdered in the future (he wasn't killed in a duel or destroyed for his misdeeds, he was backstabbed by an opportunistic mortal wielding a soul-sucking sword) and so he thought he might as well amuse himself while preparing for this to happen.

This obviously went on a few decades at least. Of course since middle-aged humans remember you as a child an elf who is barely considered adolescent in his 50ies still won't work.

Second, the fact that you spent your whole life in Candlekeep limits your interactions with the rest of the world: everything is obviously new to you, the only source of knowledge you can have is second-hand.

Agreed. This ist the most character defining trait of Gorion's Ward.

Modifié par J.O.G, 21 novembre 2009 - 12:21 .

[Leetabix]

well Alot of people enjoyed the fact that in mass effect you can pick your backstory and was deemed a succsessful feature , so bioware are simply building on this feature with the Origin storys. I think its a really nice feature and It had me immersed into the game , to the point that I notticed that many of my charactors view points were based on what I had done right at the beginning of the game.

[aberdash]

minamber wrote...

Second, the fact that you spent your whole life in Candlekeep limits your interactions with the rest of the world: everything is obviously new to you, the only source of knowledge you can have is second-hand.

Your whole life was not in Candlekeep. Granted you would likely be too young to remember what happened before Gorion took you in.

minamber wrote...

That second point also translates directly for Fallout. How can you say "you were a vault dweller that's it"? Again that "simple" fact must influence your whole interaction with the rest of the world, because everything is new to your character, and he's a stranger everywhere. That seems a huge part of the PC's background to me.

The entire premise of the game is saving the vault. Being someone out in the wasteland would make no sense.

minamber wrote...

Again, I fail to see the difference with DA's origins. They seem to have about the same amount of importance to the story and choice left to the player as the backgrounds you like so much. They do have one advantage in that the player's choice in terms of background actually have an influence in DA.

If you want to be a human you are either a mage or a noble. Quite limiting if you ask me. The elf and dwarf origins seem far less restricting however.

Modifié par aberdash, 21 novembre 2009 - 12:28 .

[Kendaric Varkellen]

aberdash wrote...

If you want to be a human you are either a mage or a noble. Quite limiting if you ask me. The elf and dwarf origins seem far less restricting however.

Admittedly, I'd have liked a human commmoner and/or human barbarian origin to have more choices in addition to those we have (as I mostly play human characters in any given game) but the origins we currently have are a good start.

[Mnemnosyne]

minamber wrote...

(which btw also prevents you from making an elf if you want to be consistent, since you'd still be a child if you were one).

Somewhat off-topic, but this is a really common misconception.  Most elves, and definitely those in the Realms, do not physically mature at some absurdly slow pace whereby they are toddlers for decades.  An elf ages a little slower than humans, but by the time they're 20 years old or so they're mature.  They are still considered youths, but this is dependent on the specific culture they grew up in, very similar to the way a human in reality can be fully mature at around 14-16, but isn't considered an 'adult' until the arbitrary point of 18 or 21 or some other societally chosen age.

Sources, incase you are doubtful, are several of the Forgotten Realms novels.  The one I remember most clearly is Homeland.  Dark Elves in Menzoberranzan are sent to Tier Breche at 25 years old, they are not children at this point.  A couple other novels have situations with similarly young elves of other subraces, so it's not just a Drow thing.

On the elf lifespan point, I wonder what an average city elf's lifespan is in Thedas.  It's made quite clear that their lifespans are pretty short overall, but nothing specific.  Same average as human, a little longer?  I presume the average dalish elf has a good twenty or thirty more years of life, from the sound of it.

Anyway, I now return you to your regularly scheduled argument.

[aberdash]

Humans and elves live to the same age(60) and dwarfs live slightly longer(90) in DA. According to one of the writers at least, I think it was Gaider that said it.

[PurpleChair]

I think the origin stories are good, but they do need a few tweaks. The thing about family skin tones is a big deal (although really, considering almost everyone in Ferelden is white, the whole concept of having a non-white character seems to put real-world political correctness and in-game realism in direct conflict).



What REALLY bugged me was that my dwarf noble started out with his blood dragon armour and stuff, but then it all got taken away. Wait, this is the NO SPOILERS forum, right? Tssssk!

[Smerbev]

The simple fact is that this is not a sandbox, table top rpg. It's a computer game. If you want full creative control over the aspects of your character, go play something else. I am just amazed at the things that people find the time to complain about. Crying that you can't play as a 40 year old without ruining the 'immersion' just comes across as completely ridiculous.

[Nemesis7884]

well they could have used a different non-traditional-fantasy-plot - this wouldnt require more involvement/background story of your character...one thing has nothing to do with each other... but the set up the united "good" of the country against a mystical "evil" is BOOOORING as hell... and the background of your character is not as important as the choices you can make, how you can play and what story youre playing - final fantasy XII didnt allow you to create a character either but the story was a million times better then dao... the game is great for a lot of things, but the story is generic boring fantasy...

[marshalleck]

So you'd make the story better by making it less generic/boring.



I'm sure the developers will find that feedback very helpful.

[Nemesis7884]

this is helpfull - dont make all fantasy games always stereotyp - no fight "good" vs "evil" - ...its always much more interesting without clear sides - e.g. mid game you start wondering if your side is really the good side and the evil is really all that evil... i love to see some more interesting stories in the fantasy area...some new ideas - such as dunegon hero for example...thats what you have authors for, every 10 years old could think of lotr-copy-story

[Gadarr]

Nemesis7884 wrote...

this is helpfull - dont make all fantasy games always stereotyp - no fight "good" vs "evil" - ...its always much more interesting without clear sides - e.g. mid game you start wondering if your side is really the good side and the evil is really all that evil... i love to see some more interesting stories in the fantasy area...some new ideas - such as dunegon hero for example...thats what you have authors for, every 10 years old could think of lotr-copy-story

Well, although the story does pinpoint you to fight the darkspawn, the way to get there is definitely not about good vs. evil. And that's where DA gives more room to you as a player than most other rpg games. There can be arguments found for just about any decision you make that turn it into a "good" or "evil" decision. Of course, you have to get allies, but how you achieve this considering some possible choices (and their interpretations and motivations) and outcomes isn't stereotypical at all as they are pretty much up to you. You can be a powerhungry bastard but make the same choice by roleplaying a very pragmatic person.

Also, I don't know of a single game that doesn't set you up against some sort of villain. The villain may in some cases be chosen (and though story-wise may not be a "villain", it will always be one from your characters perspective) but that's basically how these games are set up. I don't see a way around that either.

[ChaosInc80]

JKoopman wrote...

So any attempt to roleplay a wisened old wizard would be thwarted there as well.

Actually I just created an "old wizard" mage.  Got to the story beginning and watched the opening and the "young child" reference.  Kinda chuckled for a moment and went "damn, my guy must suck at magic since he's old now!"

Oooo!  Oooo!  Guess what I did next?

WRONG!

I didn't start a troll-bait thread here.  I simply went "Meh, no biggie.  It's just the opening story.  In a couple hours the character "fitting in" should be fine."

Seriously, get over it.