127 réponses à ce sujet

[Nemesis7884]

Gadarr wrote...

Nemesis7884 wrote...

this is helpfull - dont make all fantasy games always stereotyp - no fight "good" vs "evil" - ...its always much more interesting without clear sides - e.g. mid game you start wondering if your side is really the good side and the evil is really all that evil... i love to see some more interesting stories in the fantasy area...some new ideas - such as dunegon hero for example...thats what you have authors for, every 10 years old could think of lotr-copy-story

Well, although the story does pinpoint you to fight the darkspawn, the way to get there is definitely not about good vs. evil. And that's where DA gives more room to you as a player than most other rpg games. There can be arguments found for just about any decision you make that turn it into a "good" or "evil" decision. Of course, you have to get allies, but how you achieve this considering some possible choices (and their interpretations and motivations) and outcomes isn't stereotypical at all as they are pretty much up to you. You can be a powerhungry bastard but make the same choice by roleplaying a very pragmatic person.

Also, I don't know of a single game that doesn't set you up against some sort of villain. The villain may in some cases be chosen (and though story-wise may not be a "villain", it will always be one from your characters perspective) but that's basically how these games are set up. I don't see a way around that either.

yeah but its a difference if its some villain whos action you can understand to some point and the "ancient everlasting unspoken evil" nobody can ever identify with... honestly, thats also preventing me from playing it again several times, the story is imply boring - but thats pretty much one of the few complaints i have, get me right, i think the game has many strong points... they way the story is told is one of it, but the sory for itself definatly not

[marshalleck]

You know what I would like? I would like an RPG where my character isn't a moron, who needs everything explained to him. For example, as a relatively powerful level 15+ mage who is very skilled in magic (according to the NPCs) I'd like to not have to defer to amateurs to provide solutions to problems and drive the plot. I'd like my mage to say "I know magic well, and here is the solution, let's get to it" without having to sit through a lecture about rudimentary magical powers from someone who is acknowledged in the game to be far less adept than my PC in that field.

Sure, it wouldn't revolutionize the RPG genre, but it would be a breath of fresh air.

Modifié par marshalleck, 21 novembre 2009 - 03:17 .

[Gadarr]

Nemesis7884 wrote...
yeah but its a difference if its some villain whos action you can understand to some point and the "ancient everlasting unspoken evil" nobody can ever identify with... honestly, thats also preventing me from playing it again several times, the story is imply boring - but thats pretty much one of the few complaints i have, get me right, i think the game has many strong points... they way the story is told is one of it, but the sory for itself definatly not

The thing is, the darkspawn are just the framework delivering the story focus. And although this framework is indeed somewhat of a cliché, it doesn't really matter for most of the game. It's not about fighting the darkspawn but about HOW you prepare for it. This is why there are so many choices and different outcomes in the end.

To make it short: The blight is just the setup for the story itself. The background story, if you so wish. If you don't believe this, then ask yourself how you would summarize the plot over the course of the game. "Oh, the hero got the mission to defeat the blight and at the end accomplished what he set out to do by rallying some troops." Seriously?

[Nemesis7884]

naaa still, the story just doesnt flash me... final fantasy XII did, fallout 3 did... but that hardly ever happens with games...i think authors that write plots for movies should also be the ones writing for games...another point i highly miss is humor, some sarchasm, making fun of fantasy cliches...mmmm

[Taltherion]

Hm ... it may be just me ... but I always thought roleplaying was ALSO the ability to come up with a character that fits the limits of the setting the GM provides. Granted, often GMs leave the background-story up to you, but I've also played campaigns where our background was even decided by throwing a couple of dice ... made for some interesting experiences.



When my GM tells me: "You're going to start the adventure as inexperienced, young adventurers", I won't come up with a grizzled war veteran.



When my GM tells me: "Our adventure is set in ancient Gaul", I won't roll up an Asian character ...



Granted: A human commoner origin would have been nice (that I guess would have left some leeway for more different characters).

[addiction21]

Taltherion wrote...

Hm ... it may be just me ... but I always thought roleplaying was ALSO the ability to come up with a character that fits the limits of the setting the GM provides. Granted, often GMs leave the background-story up to you, but I've also played campaigns where our background was even decided by throwing a couple of dice ... made for some interesting experiences.

When my GM tells me: "You're going to start the adventure as inexperienced, young adventurers", I won't come up with a grizzled war veteran.

When my GM tells me: "Our adventure is set in ancient Gaul", I won't roll up an Asian character ...

Granted: A human commoner origin would have been nice (that I guess would have left some leeway for more different characters).

No you jsut do not understand. It is unthinkable to compromise at any point for anything EVER. My way or the highway so to speak
/sarcasim
Waffles could be better without syrup but I really dont want to find out.

[Nemesis7884]

i also simply think backgroundstory is not as important as a characters future, what he can do and become...

[Nemesis7884]

another problem i have is if i dont understand the reasons and motives for the "evil"... what the hell do they dark spawn want? why do they want it? i mean no "evil" wants to destroy everything just because of the destruction, thats just stupid

[marshalleck]

Nemesis7884 wrote...

another problem i have is if i dont understand the reasons and motives for the "evil"... what the hell do they dark spawn want? why do they want it? i mean no "evil" wants to destroy everything just because of the destruction, thats just stupid

Well the darkspawn certainly aren't interested in making friends, so there are practical enough reasons to want to stop them.

[addiction21]

Nemesis7884 wrote...

another problem i have is if i dont understand the reasons and motives for the "evil"... what the hell do they dark spawn want? why do they want it? i mean no "evil" wants to destroy everything just because of the destruction, thats just stupid

Some spoilers may be included.

They seem content on staying underground and fighting/stealing dwarfs (dunno how far but they do abduct/take captives for a reason).  Also they are down there looking for the old gods/archdemons they are "drawn" to them.  Whatever the archdemons motives are unclear. Maybe just the typical world domination scenario.

[Nemesis7884]

see thats what i mean about too generic and too simple - ancient evit that wants to destroy the world cause it is evil and thats what evil do....??? well the darkspawn increase in numbers, they r using weapons armor and magic, so they must have a society themself???...but its not that game, its 90% of the game/books/movies...always copying the same stuff over and over again...so i am really enjoying some fresh air - such like dugeon keeper... in the late 90s, early 00s there was a time when game designers were extremly creative, comming up with great ideas...nowadays its just everything about secure proift - just dont riks anything...same with movies and so you use the same generic-sterotypes over and over again with 13trillion cod sequels baaaaaa

[Ginnerben]

Nemesis7884 wrote...

another problem i have is if i dont understand the reasons and motives for the "evil"... what the hell do they dark spawn want? why do they want it? i mean no "evil" wants to destroy everything just because of the destruction, thats just stupid

Spoilers forum is not this way.  

I can think of two or three reasons for the Darkspawn in terms of motivation.  Post a thread asking about it elsewhere, and I (and many others) will contribute.  But this is a spoiler-free zone.  

[Nemesis7884]

thats no spoiler, that you are fighting the darkspawn which are the evil is clear from the start

[Viglin]

JKoopman wrote...

To put it simply, they severely restrict character creation and roleplaying in several instances, the two in particular being the Human Noble and Mage origins.

As a human noble you're said to be the youngest member of the Cousland royal family, which already restricts your age to less than that of your 30-ish looking brother, so a grizzled old war vetran character wouldn't make sense. In addition, being that your parents and sibling are all caucasian in appearance, it prevents you from roleplaying a dark-skinned or asian character as well (the same is true of the dwarf noble origin as your father and brothers there are equally pale in complexion).

With the mage origin, you're said to have been brought to the Tower as a child (as are all mages) and your friend Jowan complains that he's been there longer than you have, which also restricts your maximum age as logically you cannot be older than Jowan who appears to be in his early or mid 20s. So any attempt to roleplay a wisened old wizard would be thwarted there as well.

Basically, unless you're willing to suspend your disbelief or just cover your ears and go "Na na na na na" throughout the origin stories, the origins can really get in the way of the character you wish to create.

Why were the origins even necessary? Why not simply start the game with a generic Prooving for Grey Warden recruits and have your character enter from parts unknown with whatever background story you choose to give him? As is DA:O is less a roleplaying game and more a graphical Choose Your Own Adventure.

So you'd trade a detailed background that makes you feel for the world your entering and a connection to the people...not to mention the actions you choose having an influence in the bigger scheme of things....so you could justify your dwarf having a purple mohawk and gold skin due to your "great rpg skills"?

You must be a laugh at parties and a joy to see a movie with.....

As for you "troll" comments earlier towards a few posters...ld say your the one with the bridge for a home, for your post is little more then bait decorated in overly long sentences to make yourself appear all knowing and anyone who disagress with you too be a simpleton.

[Ginnerben]

Nemesis7884 wrote...

thats no spoiler, that you are fighting the darkspawn which are the evil is clear from the start

What I'm saying is that the motivation for the darkspawn is there.  But I can't tell you, because it is a spoiler.  You're complaining about the evil being shallow, I'm saying that its not.

Besides, if they intend to expand the series, they can't give everything away.  

[Pellegrin]

How many games don't limit your character's age and/or race? Fallout 3 does it, Baldur's Gate does it, Risen does it.



I understand what the OP is saying but the amount of interesting, unique content that origins provides for future playthroughs easily outweighs the loss of what I feel are minor roleplaying impediments.

[Bullets McDeath]

Someone else said it perfectly and that's all there really is to say about this "issue". Even in a tabletop RPG, many times your GM is going to lay out certain guidelines for creating characters and together with the setting of the campaign that gives you a framework within which to create a character. It's really no different here. Within the Origins you are free to define yourself, but they are not *infinitely* flexible. If your GM was running Star Wars D20 and he asks you to create a group of young human Jedi and you roll up a Wookie Mercenary with a pet Beholder... well, I'm sure he has a totally kickass background dude, but you're not playing him in my game. So yes I am "limiting" you, if you want to look at it that way. But that makes you a dick for looking at it that way. Dick.



Also, making old characters in CRPGs should break immersion all by itself. How the hell is he still Level 1?!?!

[Sloth Of Doom]

Ginnerben wrote...

Nemesis7884 wrote...

thats no spoiler, that you are fighting the darkspawn which are the evil is clear from the start

What I'm saying is that the motivation for the darkspawn is there.  But I can't tell you, because it is a spoiler.  You're complaining about the evil being shallow, I'm saying that its not.

Besides, if they intend to expand the series, they can't give everything away.  

This.


There are lots of hints and allusioons as to what the darkspawn are after.   You could ask elsewhere, or better yet, actually play the damned game...all the info is there.

On a related note, if 20 guys break into your house and start kiling your family, do you stop and ask them what their moivations are?

[deadrockstar]

I think in a story-driven RP like DA:O the origins are fantastic. It allows the world to react with greater inpact to you origin.



Maybe I just find it interesting, but to fully experience a character I like being thrust into starting siuations not of my own choosing. I didn't choose my start in life, but I do choose what to make of it. Likewise with a character, I may not have a choice in how the world I find myself in treats or perceives me, but I can develop a deeper and richer personality on top of it.



When given absolute freedom to create a character I find it takes a massive amount away from the immersion in the world and, by extension, my ability to learn. I can either create whoever I want and learn a little, or accept some constraints, have the world acknowledge me more and learn bucketloads through my RP. As I age, I'm more and more in favour of the second route.

[Shannara13]

because Bioware always "presents" characters as being 14 year old boys who are preoccupied with rebelling against bad parents and heartless school teachers who are suddenly called upon to save the world, due no doubt to their extensive experience dealing with such evildoers as bad parents and heartless school teachers.

You know I can't think of a single Bioware game in which any of what you said is true. Sure in BG you were young but you were a demigod which kinda balances that out. In Kotor you were definantely not a child. In Mass Effect you were definantely not a child and you definently had plenty of experiance to be called. Nor were you a child in NWN.

So what Bioware game are you talking about where you play a 14 year old boy preoccupied with rebelling against bad parents and heartless school teachers who has no experiance?

[JKoopman]

Viglin wrote...

So you'd trade a detailed background that makes you feel for the world your entering and a connection to the people...not to mention the actions you choose having an influence in the bigger scheme of things....so you could justify your dwarf having a purple mohawk and gold skin due to your "great rpg skills"?

You must be a laugh at parties and a joy to see a movie with.....

As for you "troll" comments earlier towards a few posters...ld say your the one with the bridge for a home, for your post is little more then bait decorated in overly long sentences to make yourself appear all knowing and anyone who disagress with you too be a simpleton.

No golden-skinned purple-haired dwarves but a simple black human or older character might be nice. Way to flagrantly exaggerate though and thanks for being such a dick about it.

[kroosaydur]

the origins are one of my favorite things about this game. very creative of bioware imo. and it makes the beginning of the game more fun when you start over because you get a different story each time.

[OdinTGE]

the same is true of the dwarf noble origin as your father and brothers there are equally pale in complexion).

Considering black people are black because of centuries of exposure to Africa's sun the idea of a black dwarf is farily silly anyway.  But it's a fantasy game and your knickers are in a twist so what's it matter I guess.

[JKoopman]

Okay, so maybe saying the game would've been better off without Origins entirely is a bit over the top, but how can anyone deny that several of the Origins could've been done so as to allow for much greater leeway in character customization without sacrificing story depth? Especially since many of the Origins do so already (for example, you're given much great flexibility in the Dalish Origin as well as the City Elf Origin being that your mother is an unknown which could explain why your character has a different skin tone from your father).

[addiction21]

Sloth Of Doom wrote...


On a related note, if 20 guys break into your house and start kiling your family, do you stop and ask them what their moivations are?

I had something witty to say here but I am lacking a sound and reasonable motivation to post it.

waffles...