190 réponses à ce sujet

[tmp7704]

Masako52 wrote...

And no, the elves aren't "anorexic." Likely they have a slimmer bone structure, so of course if a human was that skinny there would be bones protruding - but for an elf, the bones carry a more slender frame.

And that more slender frame has appearance which exactly matches that of anorexic human. And that triggers the same sort of reaction in the brain that makes people say "DAO elves are just short humans" instead of trying of telling themselves similarly silly justifications how no, they're elven bodies and they just have smaller bones etc.

Perles75 wrote...

They are another race, not just cute little humans. It's right they have their own racial characteristics, even if they do not correspond to the usual human aesthetic canons of beauty.

Which is the problem if the species in question is supposed to be found aesthetically pleasing by humans.

Modifié par tmp7704, 01 août 2011 - 12:37 .

[TEWR]

Which is the problem if the species in question is supposed to be found aesthetically pleasing by humans

Which brings us back to beauty being subjective. What one person finds ugly another may find attractive.

[TEWR]

alex90c wrote...

Huntress wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Huntress wrote...

Elves are ugly in DA2 yes rofl.. some looks like they don't feed for month's.
I have a mod for merril.. gosh took me a while to get use to her, I always left her at her home, fenris is male so is ok if he doens't look that attractive. lol

My new Merril:

So Morrigan cloned herself?

Anyway I believe the old saying beauty is in the eye of the beholder applies here i don't have any real problem with the new elves except: GIVE THEM BACK THEY"RE SHOES!...Thank you.

This is Morrigan

KILL IT WITH FIRE

I think a dev said that wasn't going to be how Morrigan would look if she reappeared.

[Dubya75]

Seems like the OP's been silenced, lol!

[tmp7704]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Which brings us back to beauty being subjective. What one person finds ugly another may find attractive.

Yes, with a caveat that when something is said to be found generally pleasing, i think we can both agree it means the object in question should be found pleasing by majority rather than precious few. Meaning, it can't really "not correspond to the usual human aesthetic canons of beauty", since that would generate the general reaction along the lines of "eeew" rather than "awww".

Modifié par tmp7704, 01 août 2011 - 01:07 .

[TEWR]

No one race is comprised of entirely beautiful people. Ignoring the furniture people, there are more decent to beautiful elves in DA2 then there are the ugly ones. Most of them are the Dalish.

Now, that said, some pics I've seen have recently shown the elves to have an S-shaped back of sorts. Whether that is changed or not doesn't bother me, because I still love the new elves.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 01 août 2011 - 01:27 .

[Dubya75]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

No one race is comprised of entirely beautiful people. Ignoring the furniture people, there are more decent to beautiful elves in DA2 then there are the ugly ones. Most of them are the Dalish.

Now, that said, some pics I've seen have recently shown the elves to have an S-shaped back of sorts. That should be rectified.

Or...maybe that's how their backs are meant to be!

[TEWR]

Maybe. I should've said that whether they do change it or not, it won't make me hate the design itself as I do love it. Either way, I love the new elves.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 01 août 2011 - 01:27 .

[tmp7704]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

No one race is comprised of entirely beautiful people. Ignoring the furniture people, there are more decent to beautiful elves in DA2 then there are the ugly ones. Most of them are the Dalish.

I'm talking mainly about the body type. This is something where this argument doesn't apply at all, as it's something that's shared and identical for all elves, no matter if they're "furniture NPCs" or the companions.

[Dubya75]

tmp7704 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

No one race is comprised of entirely beautiful people. Ignoring the furniture people, there are more decent to beautiful elves in DA2 then there are the ugly ones. Most of them are the Dalish.

I'm talking mainly about the body type. This is something where this argument doesn't apply at all, as it's something that's shared and identical for all elves, no matter if they're "furniture NPCs" or the companions.

All dwarfs have the same body model, as does all humans. So what is your point exactly? Each character with a name has a unique face. Some better looking than others, just like it is with dwarfs and humans.
It seems like it is more a case of personal preference that is being pawned off as design faults.

[tmp7704]

Dubya75 wrote...

All dwarfs have the same body model, as does all humans. So what is your point exactly?

My point is if that body model happens to make you throw up, then it cannot be said, "oh but it's only some elves that cause that reaction, others are beautiful" because it's plain false.

[Masako52]

tmp7704 wrote...

Masako52 wrote...

And no, the elves aren't "anorexic." Likely they have a slimmer bone structure, so of course if a human was that skinny there would be bones protruding - but for an elf, the bones carry a more slender frame.

And that more slender frame has appearance which exactly matches that of anorexic human. And that triggers the same sort of reaction in the brain that makes people say "DAO elves are just short humans" instead of trying of telling themselves similarly silly justifications how no, they're elven bodies and they just have smaller bones etc.

Perles75 wrote...

They are another race, not just cute little humans. It's right they have their own racial characteristics, even if they do not correspond to the usual human aesthetic canons of beauty.

Which is the problem if the species in question is supposed to be found aesthetically pleasing by humans.

It's too bad it triggers that reaction for you. It doesn't for me. And I find them very, very aesthetically pleasing. Most of the gamers I've talked to also have had positive reactions toward the DA2 elves. You really can't use a blanket statement and accuse the elves of being unattractive by human standards, when that's extremely subjective and obviously, many gamers disagree and do find them extremely attractive.

[tmp7704]

Masako52 wrote...

It's too bad it triggers that reaction for you. It doesn't for me. And I find them very, very aesthetically pleasing.

do you find this person very, very aesthetically pleasing?

Most of the gamers I've talked to also have had positive reactions toward the DA2 elves. You really can't use a blanket statement and accuse the elves of being unattractive by human standards, when that's extremely subjective and obviously, many gamers disagree and do find them extremely attractive.

How many is that "many gamers" that you have talked to, exactly?

Regarding the blanket statements and human standards, are you aware that --as species-- we're wired to find certain features either attractive or off-putting, because they signal potential quality of the person as a mate for reproduction? Appearing extremely malnourished is one of the factors which are widely found off-putting. You can even see one of the posters in this very thread who says he "loves the new design" react with a double take when facing such creature rendered more realistically than DA2 does it. That's normal reaction, and that's why it's actually viable to make such 'blanket statements'. Because it's something that's quite less subjective than "extremely".

[Uccio]

I mostly enjoyed elves lookind "different", though they are supposed to be much more good looking than humans so this change in appearance was not that succesful. Some of the elves looked like they were torn out of Alien movie.

[Dubya75]

Masako52 wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

Masako52 wrote...

And no, the elves aren't "anorexic." Likely they have a slimmer bone structure, so of course if a human was that skinny there would be bones protruding - but for an elf, the bones carry a more slender frame.

And that more slender frame has appearance which exactly matches that of anorexic human. And that triggers the same sort of reaction in the brain that makes people say "DAO elves are just short humans" instead of trying of telling themselves similarly silly justifications how no, they're elven bodies and they just have smaller bones etc.

Perles75 wrote...

They are another race, not just cute little humans. It's right they have their own racial characteristics, even if they do not correspond to the usual human aesthetic canons of beauty.

Which is the problem if the species in question is supposed to be found aesthetically pleasing by humans.

It's too bad it triggers that reaction for you. It doesn't for me. And I find them very, very aesthetically pleasing. Most of the gamers I've talked to also have had positive reactions toward the DA2 elves. You really can't use a blanket statement and accuse the elves of being unattractive by human standards, when that's extremely subjective and obviously, many gamers disagree and do find them extremely attractive.

This.

[Masako52]

tmp7704 wrote...

(cut)

do you find this person very, very aesthetically pleasing?

Most of the gamers I've talked to also have had positive reactions toward the DA2 elves. You really can't use a blanket statement and accuse the elves of being unattractive by human standards, when that's extremely subjective and obviously, many gamers disagree and do find them extremely attractive.

How many is that "many gamers" that you have talked to, exactly?

Regarding the blanket statements and human standards, are you aware that --as species-- we're wired to find certain features either attractive or off-putting, because they signal potential quality of the person as a mate for reproduction? Appearing extremely malnourished is one of the factors which are widely found off-putting. You can even see one of the posters in this very thread who says he "loves the new design" react with a double take when facing such creature rendered more realistically than DA2 does it. That's normal reaction, and that's why it's actually viable to make such 'blanket statements'. Because it's something that's quite less subjective than "extremely".

Okay, seriously. It's FANTASY. I find it very odd that you're trying to compare fantasy creation to real-world counterparts. Do the dragons also bother you, because at their weight those wings wouldn't actually allow them to fly? I play many games, including ones thats designs border on cartoon (read: Japanese anime) and obviously they're never realistically proportionate. That doesn't make a character not attractive.

FURTHERMORE, as explained earlier, elves have different body types than humans. THEREFORE, you posting a picture of a dangerously skinny human is NOT comparable. An elf WOULDN'T have bones protruding and look malnourished naked. They're just slimmer, period. So you trying to post shock pictures to prove your point is absolutely useless. They're a fantasy race, for gods sake. In real life I'm not going to find tiny hairy stocky people attractive, but I enjoy dwarves in Dragon Age. Give it a rest.

Gamer club at college, family gamers, gamers on other forums I frequent - I never ran into elf hate except for this Bioware forum. Elves are supposed to be lithe and slender. DA2 provided that. If you have a problem, whine moar, but don't assume you're "right" because you're trying to compare fantasy to real life women.

Furthermore, the elves' slenderness is really hardly the main feature about the new elves. If you recall, the DAO elves were also more slender compared to the human counterparts.

[Faunwea]

Regarding the comments in game that humans find elves attractive vs. gamers finding them unnattractive;

Humans from Thedas =/= Humans from Earth

For all anyone knows, what humans deem as attractive in Thedas might be entirely different than what "we" deem as attractive on Earth.

Modifié par Faunwea, 01 août 2011 - 03:46 .

[Sith Grey Warden]

I don't like the disproportionately large heads, the ridiculously large ears, or the fact that they got a bit taller. Other than that, I think they're fine.

[GGW KillerTiger]

Huntress wrote...

Elves are ugly in DA2 yes rofl.. some looks like they don't feed for month's.
I have a mod for merril.. gosh took me a while to get use to her, I always left her at her home, fenris is male so is ok if he doens't look that attractive. lol

My new Merril:

That Marril doesn't look any different .... Just saying ....

The elves are fine. Seriosuly I like them ....  Just finished a playthrough where I romanced the only female charachter likeable (Merril) so yea ....

[tmp7704]

Masako52 wrote...

I play many games, including ones thats designs border on cartoon (read: Japanese anime) and obviously they're never realistically proportionate. That doesn't make a character not attractive.

Indeed, it's not lack of realistic proportions in general that makes character not attractive. It's certain combination of proportions which can do it. It just happens DA2 elf design uses one variant of such unattractive combination of proportions.

FURTHERMORE, as explained earlier, elves have different body types than humans. THEREFORE, you posting a picture of a dangerously skinny human is NOT comparable. An elf WOULDN'T have bones protruding and look malnourished naked. They're just slimmer, period. So you trying to post shock pictures to prove your point is absolutely useless. They're a fantasy race, for gods sake. In real life I'm not going to find tiny hairy stocky people attractive, but I enjoy dwarves in Dragon Age. Give it a rest.

You know what is the kicker here? This picture of dangerously skinny human doesn't have bones protruding any more than the DA2 elves do -- she's actually textured with the very texture used for DA2 elves. Let it sink in -- her appearance is no different from that of DA2 elves.

And i think the fact you find the appearance in your own words "shocking" speaks for itself. Because -- think carefully here -- what about this picture actually makes you think that's a "malnourished human" and not an elf, except for knowing that this was originally a picture of a human?

And yet it's a "shock picture" rather than very, very aesthetically pleasing? Well, go figure.

(what you experience is a variant of the Uncanny Valley effect -- increased fidelity eventually renders your brain no longer capable of ignoring there's aspects of the design that's similar to a human figure but different, and it can't help but start to pick apart everything that deviates from its concept of healthy human, and recoil in horror as consequence. It doesn't matter how many times you tell yourself "it's not human, it's an elf" at this point. For some people this point simply happens earlier)

Modifié par tmp7704, 01 août 2011 - 04:33 .

[TEWR]

Faunwea wrote...

Regarding the comments in game that humans find elves attractive vs. gamers finding them unnattractive;

Humans from Thedas =/= Humans from Earth

For all anyone knows, what humans deem as attractive in Thedas might be entirely different than what "we" deem as attractive on Earth.

That's what I've said on other elf-bashing threads. I even used Vincento and Arianni as an example on one thread.


Never really took off.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 01 août 2011 - 05:02 .

[Wulfram]

The DA2 elves could do with a few tweaks, generally in the direction of human norms.

[Masako52]

tmp7704 wrote...

Masako52 wrote...

I play
many games, including ones thats designs border on cartoon
(read: Japanese anime) and obviously they're never realistically
proportionate. That doesn't make a character not attractive.

Indeed,
it's not lack of realistic proportions in general that makes character
not attractive. It's certain combination of proportions which can do it.
It just happens DA2 elf design uses one variant of such unattractive
combination of proportions.

FURTHERMORE,
as explained earlier, elves have different body types than humans.
THEREFORE, you posting a picture of a dangerously skinny human is
NOT comparable. An elf WOULDN'T have bones protruding and look
malnourished naked. They're just slimmer, period. So you trying to post
shock pictures to prove your point is absolutely useless. They're a
fantasy race, for gods sake. In real life I'm not going to find tiny
hairy stocky people attractive, but I enjoy dwarves in Dragon Age. Give
it a rest.

You know what is the kicker here? This picture of dangerously skinny human doesn't have
bones protruding any more than the DA2 elves do -- she's actually
textured with the very texture used for DA2 elves. Let it sink in -- her
appearance is no different from that of DA2 elves.

And i
think the fact you find the appearance in your own words "shocking"
speaks for itself. Because -- think carefully here -- what about this
picture actually makes you think that's a "malnourished human" and not an elf, except for knowing that this was originally a picture of a human?

And yet it's a "shock picture" rather than very, very aesthetically pleasing? Well, go figure.

(what
you experience is a variant of the Uncanny Valley effect -- increased
fidelity eventually renders your brain no longer capable of ignoring
there's aspects of the design that's similar to a human figure but different,
and it can't help but start to pick apart everything that deviates from
its concept of healthy human, and recoil in horror as consequence. It
doesn't matter how many times you tell yourself "it's not human, it's an
elf" at this point. For some people this point simply happens
earlier)

I don't find the picture "shocking", I said you
posted a shock picture. You post a graphically unattractive picture to
try to prove a point. Furthermore you posted the same picture earlier,
sans a sloppy Paint job, WITH the bones, etc. And I do not believe that
even comes close to rendering what a DA2 elf would look like "in real
life."

images4.fanpop.com/image/photos/19200000/Merrill-Concept-Art-dragon-age-origins-19249968-900-563.jpg


THIS is
Merrill's character design. She doesn't look malnourished or anorexic.
She's slim but she doesn't look sickly or even unhealthy in regards to
her body size. Note - she's a fantasy character. And her character
design, despite being a cartoon, still gives her more in the hip/thigh
area than you give her credit for.

And... your last paragraph
makes no sense at all. It sounds like you're trying to justify something
out of thin air. The DA2 elf design is very attractive. Merrill, to me,
is beautiful. See. You still lose.

Modifié par Masako52, 01 août 2011 - 05:19 .

[Addai]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Faunwea wrote...

Regarding the comments in game that humans find elves attractive vs. gamers finding them unnattractive;

Humans from Thedas =/= Humans from Earth

For all anyone knows, what humans deem as attractive in Thedas might be entirely different than what "we" deem as attractive on Earth.

That's what I've said on other elf-bashing threads. I even used Vincento and Arianni as an example on one thread.


Never really took off.

That's because this is a roleplay game, meaning we're supposed to be able to relate to the characters.  It's fine if you were reading a novel and the author posits that species A is attracted to species B.  Even in a novel, it would still be nice to provide some rational basis for such an assumption.  Generally humans are attracted to those who appear healthy and fertile.  What, exactly, about the elves looks either healthy or fertile?

[nitefyre410]

Masako52 wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

(cut)

do you find this person very, very aesthetically pleasing?

Most of the gamers I've talked to also have had positive reactions toward the DA2 elves. You really can't use a blanket statement and accuse the elves of being unattractive by human standards, when that's extremely subjective and obviously, many gamers disagree and do find them extremely attractive.

How many is that "many gamers" that you have talked to, exactly?

Regarding the blanket statements and human standards, are you aware that --as species-- we're wired to find certain features either attractive or off-putting, because they signal potential quality of the person as a mate for reproduction? Appearing extremely malnourished is one of the factors which are widely found off-putting. You can even see one of the posters in this very thread who says he "loves the new design" react with a double take when facing such creature rendered more realistically than DA2 does it. That's normal reaction, and that's why it's actually viable to make such 'blanket statements'. Because it's something that's quite less subjective than "extremely".

Okay, seriously. It's FANTASY. I find it very odd that you're trying to compare fantasy creation to real-world counterparts. Do the dragons also bother you, because at their weight those wings wouldn't actually allow them to fly? I play many games, including ones thats designs border on cartoon (read: Japanese anime) and obviously they're never realistically proportionate. That doesn't make a character not attractive.

FURTHERMORE, as explained earlier, elves have different body types than humans. THEREFORE, you posting a picture of a dangerously skinny human is NOT comparable. An elf WOULDN'T have bones protruding and look malnourished naked. They're just slimmer, period. So you trying to post shock pictures to prove your point is absolutely useless. They're a fantasy race, for gods sake. In real life I'm not going to find tiny hairy stocky people attractive, but I enjoy dwarves in Dragon Age. Give it a rest.

Gamer club at college, family gamers, gamers on other forums I frequent - I never ran into elf hate except for this Bioware forum. Elves are supposed to be lithe and slender. DA2 provided that. If you have a problem, whine moar, but don't assume you're "right" because you're trying to compare fantasy to real life women.

Furthermore, the elves' slenderness is really hardly the main feature about the new elves. If you recall, the DAO elves were also more slender compared to the human counterparts.

 

* this and back  to the buisness at hand