190 réponses à ce sujet

[DownyTif]

I definitely agree, I hate the new elves. Elves from DAO were the right elves, not DA2. Just like the Darkspawn. There was no need to change any of them.

[Masako52]

Addai67 wrote...

That's because this is a roleplay game, meaning we're supposed to be able to relate to the characters.  It's fine if you were reading a novel and the author posits that species A is attracted to species B.  Even in a novel, it would still be nice to provide some rational basis for such an assumption.  Generally humans are attracted to those who appear healthy and fertile.  What, exactly, about the elves looks either healthy or fertile?

They look just fine to me. I'm attracted to Fenris and Merrill, and would happily have sex with either. It's fine you don't like the elves - more for me.

Anyway, look - it's all fine to claim that we're attracted to "healthy and fertile" but why are the top models in Western media always stick skinny? You guys are giving elves a lot of crap with the "too skinny and malnourished" stuff, but Western society disagrees that skinny is unattractive. We're constantly telling women, even men that if they lose weight, they'll be percieved as more sexy and beautiful.

Whereas I disagree with that mindset, I again claim upon near deaf ears that elves are a fantasy species, they're lithe and slender and attractive. They're not humans.

[RacerTratz]

I prefer the design of the elves in DA2. Where's the imagination in simply slapping pointed ears on a human? It was fine in 1966 when that's all they could do to make Spock look like a different race. But we're way beyond those limitations now. I want my fantasy races to look like different races.

Some people lack vision though. And creativity is often hampered by mass appeal. Nothing surprising there.

[FieryDove]

DownyTif wrote...

I definitely agree, I hate the new elves. Elves from DAO were the right elves, not DA2. Just like the Darkspawn. There was no need to change any of them.

I think part of my *shock* came from the fact half my warden's were Dalish.

I go into DA2 and am greeted by the Dalish:



I was  to say the least. I think even if I had not played DAO I would have thought odd, very odd.

[FieryDove]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

I have to say, the elven woman to the right is quite a looker.

Yeah, she's like Athenril, more cutesy and also one of the few more *human* looking ones. imho

Modifié par FieryDove, 01 août 2011 - 06:14 .

[nitefyre410]

Masako52 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

That's because this is a roleplay game, meaning we're supposed to be able to relate to the characters.  It's fine if you were reading a novel and the author posits that species A is attracted to species B.  Even in a novel, it would still be nice to provide some rational basis for such an assumption.  Generally humans are attracted to those who appear healthy and fertile.  What, exactly, about the elves looks either healthy or fertile?

They look just fine to me. I'm attracted to Fenris and Merrill, and would happily have sex with either. It's fine you don't like the elves - more for me.

Anyway, look - it's all fine to claim that we're attracted to "healthy and fertile" but why are the top models in Western media always stick skinny? You guys are giving elves a lot of crap with the "too skinny and malnourished" stuff, but Western society disagrees that skinny is unattractive. We're constantly telling women, even men that if they lose weight, they'll be percieved as more sexy and beautiful.

Whereas I disagree with that mindset, I again claim upon near deaf ears that elves are a fantasy species, they're lithe and slender and attractive. They're not humans.

Once again  I agree  - every  myth about elves have them being a  lithe  slender, than  your average human and  I has stated  before soo tired of the 'humans with pointy ears' complex  on how elves approached .  Elves in DA2 look like they are humans evolutionary cousins.  

[tmp7704]

Masako52 wrote...

I don't find the picture "shocking", I said you
posted a shock picture. You post a graphically unattractive picture to
try to prove a point.

I have posted a picture of character with DA2 elf body proportions. If it's as you admit, "graphically unattractive" then i don't think this point needs to be argued further, as we're in agreement.
 

And I do not believe that
even comes close to rendering what a DA2 elf would look like "in real
life."

images4.fanpop.com/image/photos/19200000/Merrill-Concept-Art-dragon-age-origins-19249968-900-563.jpg

THIS is
Merrill's character design. She doesn't look malnourished or anorexic.

This is because --amusingly enough-- this concept art has proportions considerably more human than the DA2 elves which are actually in the game.



this is the game model placed over the concept art, for comparison. The differences are easy to spot, and i think speak for themselves.

Also, this is a drawing. Drawings don't trigger the uncanny valley effect the way realistic pictures do. Because they don't look like "real life". Which is why cartoon characters don't strike as as odd, but once they are rendered realistically...



... it can start making you go "wtf".

And... your last paragraph
makes no sense at all. It sounds like you're trying to justify something
out of thin air. The DA2 elf design is very attractive. Merrill, to me,
is beautiful. See. You still lose.

And yet a character with the same body proportions like said elf design is to you graphically unattractive, and you can't even notice that the design you praise isn't what you get to see in the game. Are you sure it's not more of a case of being attached to some mental image of said design that you have, and refusing to simply see them the way they actually are?

Uncanny valley is hardly somethiing out of thin air. The concept has been around for a while.

[TEWR]

Addai67 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Faunwea wrote...

Regarding the comments in game that humans find elves attractive vs. gamers finding them unnattractive;

Humans from Thedas =/= Humans from Earth

For all anyone knows, what humans deem as attractive in Thedas might be entirely different than what "we" deem as attractive on Earth.

That's what I've said on other elf-bashing threads. I even used Vincento and Arianni as an example on one thread.


Never really took off.

That's because this is a roleplay game, meaning we're supposed to be able to relate to the characters.  It's fine if you were reading a novel and the author posits that species A is attracted to species B.  Even in a novel, it would still be nice to provide some rational basis for such an assumption.  Generally humans are attracted to those who appear healthy and fertile.  What, exactly, about the elves looks either healthy or fertile?

You are not however roleplaying every single person in Thedas. You're roleplaying your character. You can't roleplay Anders, Isabela, Connor, Feynriel, Vincento or anyone else. Their life is not the life you have chosen for them.

And what if it turned out that the elves weighed a normal weight? What if it turned out that Fenris weighed, without his armor on, somewhere from 155-185 lbs? Or if Merrill weighed anywhere from 115-135?

I've been told that with my body structure I look like I weigh only 100 lbs, yet I actually weigh 160 lbs on days where I don't eat anything (usually caused by me sleeping so much ). Usually I weigh about 165-175 lbs..

Looks can be deceiving you know.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 01 août 2011 - 08:37 .

[Masako52]

tmp7704 wrote...


And yet a character with the same body proportions like said elf design is to you graphically unattractive, and you can't even notice that the design you praise isn't what you get to see in the game. Are you sure it's not more of a case of being attached to some mental image of said design that you have, and refusing to simply see them the way they actually are?

Uncanny valley is hardly somethiing out of thin air. The concept has been around for a while.

Lol... no. I love Merrill the way she is in the game (for that matter, I love both her and Fenris's game appearance exponentially more than I like their original artwork, they look much smoother and more attractive). And I have to ask you if YOU'RE just seeing elves the way you want to see them - ugly and malnourished - instead of actually seeing them for what they are.

Your picture is graphically unattractive. That doesn't makes elves unattractive. Your picture is of an obviously human woman with a very frightening expression and proportions. The elves in the game don't look like that. They are a perfect combination of fantasy art, and realism. If Merrill popped out of the game, I'd still think she was attractive.

I think what I've been saying over and over again that you're not getting in any of your arguments is that elves are not human. As said a million times already, they are lithe and slender. In pretty much ANY lore of them you could ever find, they're slender. Obviously it makes sense for Bioware to make them a little more slender than the humans (as they did in DAO, for that matter), but yet you keep judging the elves by human standards. That's why none of your arguments are working.

[Masako52]

nitefyre410 wrote...

Once again  I agree  - every  myth about elves have them being a  lithe  slender, than  your average human and  I has stated  before soo tired of the 'humans with pointy ears' complex  on how elves approached .  Elves in DA2 look like they are humans evolutionary cousins.  

Exactly! That's why it kills me when people say we should go back to the DAO elves. the DAO elves are ONLY short, skinny humans with pointy ears. To me, that design is a disservice to the freedom of creativity and design that comes with having elf characters. The DA2 characters are an awesome rendition that have individuality and difference from humans, while still being humanoid and attractive, and very fey-like.

[tmp7704]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

And what if it turned out that the elves weighed a normal weight? What if it turned out that Fenris weighed, without his armor on, somewhere from 155-185 lbs? Or if Merrill weighed anywhere from 115-135?

If you see a very short, regularly built person and then discover he/she weights 150 lbs does that make you see them as any less short person?

Similarly, it wouldn't change anything; the reaction/evaluation is based on appearance. Yes, looks can be deceiving but they are what we judge others by. At least on the subconscious level.

[TRSniper4]

I suppose on the bright side, my dislike for the elf redesign will make it easier to roleplay as an anti- elf character, or at least a character who is heavily biased against elves...

Modifié par TRSniper4, 01 août 2011 - 07:48 .

[tmp7704]

Masako52 wrote...

Lol... no. I love Merrill the way she is in the game (for that matter, I love both her and Fenris's game appearance exponentially more than I like their original artwork, they look much smoother and more attractive). And I have to ask you if YOU'RE just seeing elves the way you want to see them - ugly and malnourished - instead of actually seeing them for what they are.

Your picture is graphically unattractive. That doesn't makes elves unattractive. Your picture is of an obviously human woman with a very frightening expression and proportions. The elves in the game don't look like that. They are a perfect combination of fantasy art, and realism. If Merrill popped out of the game, I'd still think she was attractive.

I think it's start for you to make some actual arguments to back up your statements at this point. You say the elves in game don't look like that -- prove it. Show me how the proportions of the "graphically unattractive" character with "frightening proportions" i have posted aren't matching the elf model which is actually in the game.

Just repeating "no, no, that's not true" simply doesn't make it so. It just makes it sound like an argument with a child.

edit: also, out of curiosity -- what is "obviously human" in that posted picture of the woman, and what specifically would need to be different in order to make you think that's an elf, instead?

Modifié par tmp7704, 01 août 2011 - 08:03 .

[Zanallen]

At this point, you should just agree to disagree because no one is going to change someone else's mind. Some like the redesign.  Some don't.

Modifié par Zanallen, 01 août 2011 - 08:07 .

[Wulfram]

Here's an actual in game elf in underwear. I'd say she's more rounded, less angular than tmp's picture, and so looks less malnourished. Still could do with a few more meals though.

She's also got a longer neck.

[Addai]

Masako52 wrote...
They look just fine to me. I'm attracted to Fenris and Merrill, and would happily have sex with either. It's fine you don't like the elves - more for me.

I do like the elves.  See the avatar?  In Origins I modded them to have more of a figure.  I was hoping there would actually be improvement to the model, not... this.

Anyway, look - it's all fine to claim that we're attracted to "healthy and fertile" but why are the top models in Western media always stick skinny?

As a reaction to our society being more overweight, I suppose.  The flip side of health.

[tmp7704]

Wulfram wrote...

Here's an actual in game elf in underwear. I'd say she's more rounded, less angular than tmp's picture, and so looks less malnourished. Still could do with a few more meals though.

She's also got a longer neck.

I think part of that is the pose -- the arm resting on the hip puts it at different angle. The shoulders appear more rounder indeed, although that's in large part caused by the fact the torso of DA2 elf is actually even thinner than that of the human model. Something i didn't want to adjust (as well as the longer neck) because i felt even without these adjustments it showed the point well enough.

[casedawgz]

Masako52 wrote...

vallore wrote...


I’ve seen many time the argument that in Origins elves looked too much like Humans;  this is an argument I don’t get. Why would elves need to look much different from Humans, at all?

They are not supposed to be a different species; if they were there would be no half-elves around.On the contrary, the irony that they are the same species, and yet are treated as they are partially due to their supposed differences, makes their situation much more interesting, imo.

Besides, different from Human should not mean ugly; they were too thin and too odd faced; in short: Too disturbingly alien and too far from lore elves. In truth,if Bioware really wanted a radically different species for their world, then why not just create a new one? they did it with the qunari.

Uhh.. Elves are different from humans. Elves aren't like, a different race of human. You can be white, black, Asian, whatever and you're still human.

Not in the Elder Scrolls .

[Serpieri Nei]

Some people are forgetting some basics. Bioware describes them as "A humanoid race, elves typically stand four inches shorter than their human companions and have a slender, lithe build and pointed ears." And often referred to by humans as 'knife ears and not " Flat Nose", "Bridge Face", "Donkey Ears", "Long Neck", and so on. So if Bioware wants to re-invent the elves like they re-invented DA2, and we all know how well that’s turning out to be. The least they can do is take the time to do it right, instead of using low quality models and wasting time/resources trying to develop products or systems that they believe are original when in fact they have already been done before.

[Masako52]

tmp7704 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Here's an actual in game elf in underwear. I'd say she's more rounded, less angular than tmp's picture, and so looks less malnourished. Still could do with a few more meals though.

She's also got a longer neck.

I think part of that is the pose -- the arm resting on the hip puts it at different angle. The shoulders appear more rounder indeed, although that's in large part caused by the fact the torso of DA2 elf is actually even thinner than that of the human model. Something i didn't want to adjust (as well as the longer neck) because i felt even without these adjustments it showed the point well enough.

Your picture wasn't representative of an elf because it minimized body porportions and simply made every limb stick thin. For example, look at the legs of your "elf". There's a huge wide gap between the thighs. Now look at the elf posted by Wulfram in the lingerie - maybe a tiny space between the thighs, but the thighs themself are thick and absolutely have fat on them. Sure, she's thin. But she's still got fat on her bones. Her breasts are still plump, she's still got rounded hips.

For perspective into the elf body that's NOT comparing malnourished looking human pictures, look at any photoshopped version of a model. Here's one: images.nymag.com/images/2/daily/2010/06/20100618_debenhamssplit_560x420.jpg the model before could be said to be a thin human, but the model after could be an elf. Photoshop gives a human inhumane proportions - even though they are unrealistically thin, they look, for all intents and purposes, natural. Many, many people would say the photoshopped model is VERY attractive - without facing the "omg is she anorexic" put-off.

As I've said before, you compare the elf model to a human model and obviously it doesn't make sense. You have to take it that elves are slimmer than humans and have smaller bone structure. You could compare a well-built Caucasian person to a very small Asian person - say they're both women at 5'2. The Caucasian would be slim at 120 pounds, maybe less. The Asian woman could very well weigh under 100 pounds, while still being healthy looking. Whereas if the hypothetical Caucasian woman weighed so little, she very well might look extremely underweight and malnourished. (depending on the individual person, of course)

You have to accept that elves have different body structures than human. Your arguments remain on the lines of "look at this elf model compared to this human model, look how skinny it is, how can you possibly be attracted to that because it's so skinny. Indeed, perhaps a human with the body of an elf WOULD seem disconcerting, but elves are not humans.

I WOULD be bothered if the elves had the same body proportions as humans. They need to be different, and as stated before, elves are traditionally lighter and more slender than humans. Period.

[Fleapants]

"Let's exploit the anime demographic" is what happened.

[Wulfram]

tmp7704 wrote...

I think part of that is the pose -- the arm resting on the hip puts it at different angle. The shoulders appear more rounder indeed, although that's in large part caused by the fact the torso of DA2 elf is actually even thinner than that of the human model. Something i didn't want to adjust (as well as the longer neck) because i felt even without these adjustments it showed the point well enough.

The thighs are different too - the DA2 elf actually has them.  Arms show a hint of muscle.  Also, bigger breasts.

[congealeddgtllvr]

Are people seriously arguing for busty bootylicious elves? That makes. No sense. Everything we know about them says they are lithe and slighter than humans. Think Nefertiti, not the Venus of Willendorf.

What is supposed to make them attractive to humans is that they are BEAUTIFUL. Amusingly, the majority of the DA2 elves are indeed just the opposite of that. Still, anyone arguing that Merrill does not have a beautifully rendered face is just letting their dislike for the new style in general cloud their judgement. Objectively speaking, she has the second most beautiful face of any Bioware female LI, number one being Jack, who if you removed the tattoos and gave her good hair would basically be a makeup model.

Modifié par congealeddgtllvr, 01 août 2011 - 09:09 .

[tmp7704]

Masako52 wrote...

For perspective into the elf body that's NOT comparing malnourished looking human pictures, look at any photoshopped version of a model. Here's one: images.nymag.com/images/2/daily/2010/06/20100618_debenhamssplit_560x420.jpg the model before could be said to be a thin human, but the model after could be an elf. Photoshop gives a human inhumane proportions - even though they are unrealistically thin, they look, for all intents and purposes, natural. Many, many people would say the photoshopped model is VERY attractive - without facing the "omg is she anorexic" put-off.

... considering the changes done to the original in that manipulation are minimal compared to difference between human and "elf" proportions in DA2, this argument is mind-boggling. Of course the modified person in your picture still looks natural enough not to trigger any negative reaction. That's because it's changed by ~3-5% rather that 30 as it's the case with the DA2 design. The scale of alterations is simply in different leagues.

You have to accept that elves have different body structures than human.

I accept that. You on the hand have to accept that the brain is going to draw the parallels to the human appearance and make judgements based on that, just the same. Just like having elf design which looks like short human with pointly ears makes people think "hey it looks like short human with pointly ears", having the design which looks like sickly thin human with donkey ears is going to make people think "hey it looks like sickly thin human with donkey ears". 

You can force yourself into thinking "oh but that's elf not human, so i should ignore this reaction and think instead it's beautiful~" but this is ultimately no different than what the persons who suffer from eating disorders can do to themselves, and their own perception of the body shape.