17 réponses à ce sujet

[Pzypro]

TLDR version:

- Spent a huge amount of time doing a perfect save with
everything completed as I wanted to (for ME3)… or at least that was the plan
until I hit Google and realized “I” screwed up half the ending.

- Entire Normandy crew perished because of (what I feel is) the game screwing
me over.

- Lost Legion mainly because I thought it was inevitable when it wasn’t =\\.

- I r srsly disappoint especially about the Normandy crew but I don’t have
infinite time or interest.

- Can’t decide if to accept the loss as canon or redo everything. …I can save
Legion but no save for crew.

- Looking for advice from players who were in a similar situation as I’m sure
that some of you were. =3

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Text Wall Rant Incoming Warning! (TWRIW):

Just finished my 1st super awesome (imported
insanity) playthrough of 58hours where I did everything there was to do with
all the choices carefully weighed and decided on to the best of my
feelings/intuition/wants. I was feeling pretty awesome about myself and the
game until I decided to Google up how awesome the game was… and realized that
half of my ‘friends’ that died could have well been saved (as my all Paragon ‘canon’
femshep who is friends with the world very much wanted to =))

1) I lost the entire Normandy crew except Dr. Chakwas. Why?
Not because I was lazy or stupid or wanted to but because for the 1st
time in this game, in the ME series, and hell, in every game I think I ever
played “you must hurry before something bad happens but there is no real timer”
actually decided to include an invisible timer I had zero awareness of.  At the time of the kidnapping I had already
recruited and loyal’d everyone and did most side quests but there were still a
few things remaining to do: which being the good diligent Shepard that I am I
decided to continue doing =). After all, Saren and Sovereign had zero complaints
about waiting on me while I visited every planet in the galaxy so why should
their underling collectors be any different? Right? Wrong! Kelly and the
janitor cook and the engineers NNNNOOOOOOOO /wrists. I was totally expecting
the Omega 4 relay to be a 1way trip so I wanted to get everything out of the
way before going in, and invested a lot of time into preparation to ensure I
had it all right… only to have it smash me in the face in the end. At first I
was rather upset when they died ingame but assumed it was mandatory; now I just
feel cheated by the game’s mechanics for lack of better description.

2) Lost Legion. Everyone else survived. Here I split the
blame 50/50 between myself and the game. Actually, probably I fault myself more
than the game but it doesn’t help lol. I approached the whole suicide mission
(having done everything possible before it) with the mindset that some people
will inevitably die, I will “choose” who will die, I will be powerless to do
anything about it. Why did I assume this: thanks to Virmire, the mission’s
title, and every NPC in game saying we won’t make it out alive.

So essentially for every choice I had to make (vents,
secondary teams, escort, biotic) my decision was half who would be best for the
job and half “I don’t want you to die but I like the other characters even more
than you, I’m sorry”. So the final roster ended up looking:

Vents: Legion (going into the vents was explicitly called a “suicide
mission” and I felt that the robot couldn’t truly die since its consciousness
etc was networked everywhere simultaneously).
Team 1: Jacob (he looked like a strong commander to me and also one I would
least mind dying)
Escort: Jacob (see above)
Team 2: Legion (see above)
Biotic: Jack (Why couldn’t YOU die of all people? I hated her, her looks, and
her attitude >. The perfect biotic sacrifice if it came to that)

Squad: Miranda and Grunt (should have been Miranda and Garrus but I had a sick
feeling that the game would make me kill one of them so I took on Grunt to
ensure that Miranda and Garrus won’t die :3)

Also, Mordin held the line without my permission or
intervention even though I heard he died for nearly everyone else =D.

The end result is selfexplanatory. Miraculously, and I’m
dumbfounded, I ended up picking ‘right’ for all of them (even though for all
the wrong reasons ) except for the 2nd 2nd team which slowly
overwhelmed Legion.

If I knew that perfect choices for each task would actually
work out, I would have easily gotten everyone out alive. I mean after having played
and read everything and talked to everyone dozens of times, I knew all of my squad-mates
inside and out. Only reason the perfect picks didn’t get chosen is because I expected
and honestly wanted to avoid said perfect picks from turning up dead by ‘my choice’
=U.

Not really blaming the game
here, like I said, as I guess this makes it more realistic (unpredictable, in
my control etc) but it still feels a bit cheap, deceptive and annoying.

 In conclusion, while I can live with Legion dying (since in
my opinion he couldn’t die in the 1st place and I kind of sent him
there with the assumption he won’t be coming back) the grinding down of the
entire Normandy crew has me rather annoyed to say the least.

I don’t have any save files early enough to correct the
latter and starting over a new game after all the time invested into this “perfect,
complete, cannon run” is far from appealing. I will need to replay the same
class and character and meticulously play through every single thing in pretty
much the exact same way. Definitely not how I envisioned my 2nd play
through.

I’m really on the fence about whether it is worth it and am
curious what have others done in a similar situation. Did you just accept the
loss and leave the file at that (in preparation for exporting) or did you go
and do everything over to change a (likely) relatively minor story detail. It
wouldn’t have been so bad if I could at least play another class but apparently
you can’t change class in ME3 and I want my main to be an Infiltrator
>_>.

Then there is that mental issue between deciding whether my
1st playthrough is canon – which it should have been but sadly ended
up not how I wanted it to – or I’m going to use a ‘2nd 1st’
playthrough which kind of cheapens what the whole experience was meant to be.

I also have a weird feeling that I’m thinking way too much
over this, that I should just forget about this since in all likelihood it will
barely affect ME3, and that I need to remember not to rely on auto and quick
saves in the future .

Modifié par Pzypro, 27 juillet 2011 - 06:41 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Reap what you sow. Keep that play through.

[Clayless]

I accepted it. They told you to go through and save your crew, you just decided not to.

It wasn't the games fault that Legion got killed, it was your choices.

Stop whining and blaming the game for the things you did. It doesn't matter that you thought someone would die during the suicide mission, there's even an achievement for keeping everyone alive, there's a massive hint that maybe no one can die.

[Pzypro]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

I accepted it. They told you to go through and save your crew, you just decided not to.

It wasn't the games fault that Legion got killed, it was your choices.

Stop whining and blaming the game for the things you did. It doesn't matter that you thought someone would die during the suicide mission, there's even an achievement for keeping everyone alive, there's a massive hint that maybe no one can die.

Lol, wasn't really whining. At least that wasn't the main intent. Just kind of ranting and wondering if it's worth it to replay everything 'correctly'. Also, I deliberately stayed away from achieves as a source of spoilers =).

And yeah, I'm leaning towards 'accepting it'. Can't say I like it but in further playthroughs I'm more interested in doing quick (insanity) runs with other classes rather than chasing down every side quest again D;

i'm fine with legion. The invisible time limit really annoyed me though since even ME2 has previously imposed 'time limits' on you with no consequence.

~~~~~~~

Thanks for the opinions.

Modifié par Pzypro, 27 juillet 2011 - 08:06 .

[Raven4030]

Pzypro wrote...

i'm fine with legion. The invisible time limit really annoyed me though since even ME2 has previously imposed 'time limits' on you with no consequence.

I'd say it's your own fault for not paying attention.

Right before you do the derelict Reaper mission they all but tell you that if you don't do loyalty missions right away things will turn out bad.

Right after the crew is abducted you're told that your choice is between doing more missions and rescuing the crew.

I don't think it's the responsibility of the game designer to assume that the player is incapable of picking up hints, it's the responsibility of the player to use their head and read between the lines.

[NanQuan]

I can empathize with you on this. I also was a little surprised when there turned out to be a time limit after the collectors took the crew and I also assumed that people would die in the suicide mission no matter what (because the game kept saying so) so I picked mine based half on who was suitable and who I could bear to lose.  So I get the feeling of shock that you got when you realize there was a time limit.  And originally I thought it was a little unfair as well.  But I eventually came to terms with the fact that they did warn you, and hey, the game has the right to surprise you.  I wouldn't want to play if there were no surprises.

As for the squad selection I can also empathize. I lost Mordin because I took Grunt with me to the final boss and didn't have the DLCs at the time so no addition of Zaeed to help hold the line.  Again, I was a little miffed, but hey, the game did warn you that you could very easily take losses.

Anyway, here's my point: keep the playthrough.  I kept my original because even though it's not perfect, it is the original.  You'll have a thousand opportunities to make a perfect playthrough, but only one opportunity to play the game for the first time.

[Jafroboy]

It was a dick move only putting a timer in for one mission. I wish all missions would have a time base - I had the crashing ship mission for like 30 hours! Then you would know you needed to hurry. But secretly doing it? Harsh.

On the other hand I find its way more fun if you dont cheat/metagame, so I just make choices based on what I think and live with it. First time through Zaeed died, second time no-one.

[Skyplant]

That's what you get for over thinking, I just played the game based on how I felt at each individual point and just accepted the consequences, I only lost Mordin, Jack and Tali, all of which I didn't like very much anyway.

[SojournerN7]

I would keep that save. I have a save tucked away with all of my original descisions and concequences. I'm anxious to see how everything plays out, rather than trying to get the 'perfect' playthrough. I think the original un-altered decisions are the real priiize.

[Bogsnot1]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Reap what you sow. Keep that play through.

This. Seriously, keep this playthrough to see how it turns out in ME3. Start a new game, using the ME wiki, google, youtube and these forums (especially the Suicide Mission Guide) as your resources to get a "perfect" playthough with another character.
Odds on you'll get hooked and want another playthrough or two where you keep the squadmates you like, and let the ones you dont die do you dont have to putup with them in ME3.

[Pzypro]

All right well, it was never a question about me keeping/deleting this save. I'll definitely keep it. The question was more along the lines of whether I should treat it as my main/canon character (since I have to have a main who did everything ) or do another, 'better' main. To clarify, it's not that I feel this playthrough was bad because people died; it's that I feel like these results were not my own choices but rather the game indirectly making them for me.

I'll definitely play through multiple times with various choices: save all/kill all, paravsrene etc, but those would be fast runs through the game and not completionist runs.

I'm pretty terribad at expressing what I'm complaining about XD. Anyways.

Much love @ NanQuan :3. I suspect that A LOT more people than it might seem have run into this same problem: in fact, I'd wager it was the majority of players who are just invisible. Those who did all "right" just got lucky imo (regarding suicide selection) whereas the rest of us didn't.

I mean, the game could have just as well been programmed to kill off everyone yuo selected - which is a logical assumption - and then you'd probably be pretty annoyed too if you 'voluntarily' killed off half your favorite chars . There was no real or 'smart' way to know for sure unless you spoiled the experience for yourself with any extrenal help.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Thanks for all the opinions, folks. They certainly helped me find inner peace at least . I'm still not sure what I'll do with my main, main save but I'll give it a break for now and see what i think of it closer to ME3; =D

(Note to self: learn to type less >_> lol)

Modifié par Pzypro, 28 juillet 2011 - 02:22 .

[NanQuan]

Ah, I understand what you're asking a little better now, so let me revise my advice. :innocent:

Personally, I have multiple playthroughs that I catagorize in different ways.  There's the canon, which is the first playthrough, BUT I have redone the canon twice (once for the insanity achievement and once to make it perfect).  So I have three versions of my canon shep.  And in a way I consider them all canon.  There's the original playthrough, and then there's the fixed version that has all the same important choices, but everyone alive.

Then I have my full paragon, full renegade, and my psychopathic shep... and finally my perfect shep (what I consider to be perfect anyway).  And for me, all my sheps are important to me and my perfect shep has kinda become my favorite, despite not being what I consider my canon.  So I'd say make some more sheps and see how you feel about it later.  The original playthrough can hold a place in your heart, but you may make a shep you like more and that's perfectly fine too.

[Raven4030]

What I generally do is just have your initial playthrough where you learn your game, have your other playthroughs to enjoy and explore content while gathering up achievements. Although I've labeled a couple as 'canon' playthroughs they've always felt too... well, perfect or just off.

About a month back I decided to set up four different playthroughs, writing up a psychological profile and other details to really flesh them out, and between missions when I'm doing boring things like scanning for resources and junk, or even when I'm not and just feel like letting my mind wander, I'd think up interactions that would occur between Shepard and crew. This made it alot easier to look beyond the dialogue wheel and really act in the way my character would act. It also means ignoring the metagame, don't know how others would reason it out by my Shepard for this playthrough did not think loyalty missions would be needed before the derelict reaper and figured she could just do them after picking up the IFF and then go through the Omega-4 relay. Needless to say, by the time suicide mission was done, half her team was dead (including some people I liked like Mordin and Kasumi... felt really bad about those two. Though smiled a little when Miranda ragdolled after taking the giant cyborg).

So, honestly, at this point this is the first Shepard where I can honestly say what her state of mind is at. Heck, I can state how her background, decisions in ME1, and choices and experiences in ME2 have all shaped her into what she is now.

[EternalPink]

Was expecting this thread to be about the illum bug (it counts landing there towards the mission timer when the crew is gone) since landing there to buy tech before going off and finishing 2 loyalty missions before going through the relay caused me to loose half the crew which was rather annoying.

[FemShep 4 President]

Jafroboy wrote...

It was a dick move only putting a timer in for one mission. I wish all missions would have a time base - I had the crashing ship mission for like 30 hours! Then you would know you needed to hurry. But secretly doing it? Harsh.

I agree - it was a dick move. With the exception of a tiny number of mssions with on-screen timers, this was the only time from both the games that there is a timer.

In fact on most missions you are rewarded for taking your time - searching through every map for that hidden stash of credits or weapons, while civilians cry out for you to help them - "Yeah, one minute Miranda, I'll help you get that vaccine to the ventilation ducts in a minute - let me just search though these rotting corpses to check if there are any leftover credits on them."

Or as you say, having the Crashing Ship mission or the Javelin Missiles Launched mission in your assignments list for half the goddamn game. I mean how log does it take a ship to crash, and how long does it take for a missile to hit its target?

The point is that as the player, you know that these missions will only be triggered when you accept them. It doesn't make complete sense in the "in-game-world", but we understand that it is a game design decision that gives the player the choice of when to play through a given mission. It's kind of a "contract" between game designer & gamer - "you give us more choice in how we complete our playthrough, and we suspend our disbelief".

The problem is that the timer on the crew abduction/suicide mission "breaks" this contract. It is completely inconsistent with every other treatment of time in both of the Mass Effect games.

As for those saying that the game virtually tells you do the suicide mission immediately to save your crew - bulls**t. After Investigating the Collector Ship, you have the option of skipping all remaing loyalty missions and going straight on to acquire the Reaper IFF - and Jacob says that failing to do so means that the Collectors will have more time to abduct humans. However the smart move is to do all the loyalty missions, and THEN do the Reaper IFF mission - as there are no negative consequences to this. So immediately before the crew abduction dilemma, you have been shown that the game designers are ignoring the concept of time. For them to then kill your crew, because on this occasion you didn't fly straight to the Omega 4 relay is, a dick move.

For me personally, I had completed all missions before this decision came up. But I chose to wait, because I wanted to finish all the assignements - based on ME1 I expected that I wouldn't be able to do any of them once I completed the game. So I went to do the "Fish on the Praesidium" assignment - the only one I hadn't completed. Yep - I lost half my crew because I went to find the f***ing fish on the f***ing praesidium. Needless to say, when I realised the nonsensical implication of my actions I reloaded - without a hint of shame.

However when I lost people in the suicide mission who I didn't expect to (why would a slim built Salarian Scientist  be unable to sucessfully cimb through the vents, whereas a chunky robot would), I just accepted it as one of life's curveballs.



tl:dr The timer on the crew abduction is inconsistent with every other treatment of time in the game

Modifié par FemShep 4 President, 31 juillet 2011 - 08:20 .

[sarahN7]

All I will say is this: If you really truly wanted a "perfect" save, there are plenty of guides out there on how to keep everyone alive. They were published from day 1 essentially. Having dead people isn't a flaw, nor have you been cheated. Its just part of the game.

[Raven4030]

I was going to ignore this because I figured the thread would just die, but since it was revived I am now compelled to respond to the following:

FemShep 4 President wrote...
The point is that as the player, you know that these missions will only be triggered when you accept them. It doesn't make complete sense in the "in-game-world", but we understand that it is a game design decision that gives the player the choice of when to play through a given mission. It's kind of a "contract" between game designer & gamer - "you give us more choice in how we complete our playthrough, and we suspend our disbelief".

The problem is that the timer on the crew abduction/suicide mission "breaks" this contract. It is completely inconsistent with every other treatment of time in both of the Mass Effect games.

I've read alot of stupid stuff since I joined these forums... and some might argue I've produced some stupid stuff as well. But this... this has got to be among some of the worst I've read so far. Nevermind this entire thread is based on something stupid, but this one post really takes the cake.

There is only ONE contract any developer is beholden to: To create an experience worth the $60 we put down to play the game. That's it. If you get $60 worth of fun out of the game (plus DLC costs of course, if you choose to download them) then the developers have fulfilled their end of the contract. If you want to debate whether or not ME2 is $60 worth of fun then by all means, let us debate, but to think developers are under any obligation to structure their game in any specific way or tell a story in any given matter is asinine.

Developers are allowed to change things, they're allowed to break with convention, the only thing we should ask is they give us a warning when they do so, not because we are entitled to it but because it is more fun that way. And ME2 does this, if you want me to waste time telling you how the pattern was established then I will but I will assume you're smart enough to go back through the game itself and realize that it does make the time limit (more a 'mission limit' anyway) pretty damn clear. The fact that they actually held to having a consequence for doing the Reaper IFF too early was actually a pleseant surprise for me and something I hope to see more of so I'm encouraged to make decisions in an RPG as if I were actually there rather than with the understanding of it being a video game.

What REALLY irritates me, is the whole notion that developers are under any obligation to hold to any conventions. On a small scale this attitude that things can't change only results in a non-sensicle "go right away or wait everybody dies even though game characters say you can save them by going right away" (or: "Wait as long as you like and still save everybody"). On a large scale this attitude is why every FPS since Mordern Warfare 1 looks exactly the same, why 99% of RPGs have the RNG as their core combat mechanic, why game developers dumping tens of millions of dollars are scared to innovate and so are having their rear ends handed to them by small scale developers putting out 5 - 10 dollar games on XBL Arcade. I often wondered why publishers seem to think that the public is scared of change and innovation, and this one little statement made me wonder if that question has been answered.

TL;DR version: In any creative industry, we have to accept that conventions need to occasionally be broken. If we consistently reject changes in convention, then creativity will die. So please, for the sake of creativity, quit acting like you're entitled to everything remaining the same?

[FemShep 4 President]

Your unwarranted vitriol shows you to be an emotionally unstable individual.

Your inability to understand the word "contract" in anything other than a literal sense shows your unfortunate lack of intelligence.

Your tendency to alarmist hyperbole would be amusingly ridiculous if it weren't so pathetically sad.

I don't want to get in a long debate with you - it would clearly be an exercise in futility. But I will just reiterate the basic point that I made - in the vain hope you can clamber out of your cage of narrow-mindedness and irritability to consider another person's point of view.



I have absolutely no issue with the fact that if you don't leave soon enough your crew will die. I applaud the way in which your consequences have actions. What I do not like is that this treatment of time is inconsistent with the treatment of time in almost every other part of the game.

I wish that time played a bigger part in the rest of the game(s), and that your decision not to act immediately in other scenarios did have in-game consequences. For example I wish that if you didn't go immediately to the crashing ship, it would er... crash. I wish that if you spend 5 mins looting bodies for credits, when you're supposed to be saving civilian lives, then more civilians die as a result. I wish that after the 'Investigating the Collector Ship' mission, if you choose to hold back from going though the Omega-4 relay to improve your team, then there is the negative consequence that more humans are abducted while you do.

But the fact is that there are no in-game consequences to any of these actions. I wish there were, but there aren't.

It doesn't make complete sense in the "in-game-world", but we understand that it is a game design decision that gives the player the choice of when to play through a given mission. It's kind of a "contract" between game designer & gamer - "you give us more choice in how we complete our playthrough, and we suspend our disbelief". I personally rather they removed the choice and instead gave us the consequences - but I respect the design decision they made.

But, as a result, by the time you reach the crew abduction decision, you have essentially been shown by the game (and it is a game) that time is not a concept that has consequences in-game (even though we know it 'should'). This is why I feel that attaching such significant consequences to this, and only this decision, is a bit of a "dick move".



But then that was just my opinion. Which is nothing compared to your 'factual assertions'. And on reflection, I realised that you were right and I was wrong. I am personally responsible for the lack of creativity in the FPS genre. I am the one who caused 99% of RPGs to have the RNG as their core combat mechanic. And I have personally seen to it that game developers are scared to innovate. I realise now that these were not just measured assertions, they are indisputable facts.

You are the King of Mass Effect. Yours is the only opinion that matters. All other opinions are destroying the games industry. Disbelievers in the Raven way - be damned!



tl:dr You are an urbane, emotionally stable and intelligent individual. Your pleasant online demeanour is no doubt a reflection of your good-natured real life persona. Your opinions on Mass Effect and gaming in general are exemplary in their vision and insight. I was a fool to have the temerity to disagree with you.

Modifié par FemShep 4 President, 02 août 2011 - 10:04 .