425 réponses à ce sujet

[Reptillius]

At least once I'm going to kill him. he always got in my way as much as anything. Held back way too much information. Always trying to do things on the sly even with people he could be honest to and get the same reaction... not to mention he's a little too ready to get a little too close to turning into the enemy while claiming he's doing it all for humanity. Doing it all for humanity means nothing if you stop being human and he was already pushing that line somewhat heavily in ME2 with some of his behaviors.

Now my Renegade Shepard might hold off his execution for the mere matter. "of can he be of use to me right now." when the answer becomes no. then he will be killed.

[Renessa]

My main Shep (Paragon) absolutely hates Cerberus. I must admit though, that she probably does no longer totally hate TIM.

In her eyes, he is severly misguided, but she accepts, that he believes in what he is doing, that he thinks he is doing the right thing for humanity.

And I know it sounds strange, but he has a certain charm about him...

So she would always try to reason with him, to pull him over to her way of thinking or at least persuade him to desist from his more outlandish projects. If this would not work, she'd try to arrest him, or failing that she would kill him.

Modifié par Renessa, 29 juillet 2011 - 09:56 .

[SandTrout]

For someone whos thorough paragon, you have a renagade way of seeing things.

Your understanding of 'Paragon' and 'Renegade' is flawed, then. You are associating paragon with someone who is emotional and unable to see reason beyond warm and fluffy feelings from helping people, and you are associating Renegade with someone who is brutally logical and completely ignoring any sort of morality in order to 'get the job done'. While there are people that fit these descriptions that end up as paragons and renegades, this is not the actual nature of the paragon and renegade choices.

The paragon choices are based on the premise that more can be gained through cooperation and positive coercion than by force or the threat of force.

The renegade choices are based on the premise that the direct route of force and intimidation is more efficient toward those same goals.

Both Paragons and Renegades advance human interest. Paragons expend material and tactical resources in exchange for political capital, making it easier to get what Humanity wants through negotiation. Renegades expend political capital in exchange for material and tactical advantages so that others do not have a choice except to give us what we want.

I am a logical, as opposed to an emotional person, so I am able to understand the nature of the situation at its fundamental elements. I can understand why one would choose renegade. The fact that I believe cooperation is superior to intimidation is what makes me a paragon. Others have less faith in the practical values of cooperation, and choose the more obvious path of forceful coercion.

[Markinator_123]

darkness reborn wrote...

SandTrout wrote...

darkness reborn wrote...

What about eveyone one else in the galaxy?

What about them? I'm a pretty thorough paragon, and my personal canon destroys the CB, but I disagree with your motivations to do so and your excuse to justify killing TIM.

Frankly, other species only matter to me in how they can help humanity advance. Every other species, in a general sense, has a similar perspective. The Salarians and Asari did not create the council b/c they wanted to help the other, they made it because it was more beneficial than the likely conflicts that would arise as they competed for territory and resources. It is a means to ensure their continued dominance.

They let the Turians and Humans onto the council b/c both of these species would simply take power by force if they were not allowed into a co-equal situation. Still, they all still compete for power, regardless of weather it is economic, political, or military, but they enhance all of their own interests by abiding a the Citadel Accords in order to avoid open war, which would be mutally destructive. They only help others so much as it helps themselves, either now or in the future by maintaining the credibility of their position and authority.

Golden Owl wrote...
History in itself proves we suck at that....I would prefer equal footing thanks....What I would REALLY like to see is all species with a place on the Council.

Would you mind citing an example of how we 'suck at that', or how the Council's dominance is better? [sarcasm]I'm sure that the Quarians are perfectly content with the Council's management of galactic affairs, as well as the Krogan. and the Rachni[/sarcasm]. Meanwhile, humanity has managed to unify under the Systems Alliance without any outside influence.

Your (assumed) premise that we should work for the benefit of everyone except ourselves is a deeply flawed philosophy that has never worked in history, and does not reflect the reality of the political situation in the ME universe. Everyone is out for themselves, even if they get the most by cooperation rather than intimidation and force.

For someone whos thorough paragon, you have a renagade way of seeing things.

Is he not right though? In regards to foreign relations, it is always about national self-interest. In the Mass Effect universe it is no different. Having the pro-cooperation be your ultimate goal in the galaxy is extremely naive and fool-hardy. The other races only cooperate as a means of furthering their own self-interest. The council does not care about humanity they only care about maintaining their own dominance in the galaxy (hear on the news about the alien council's response to our colonies getting abducted after Horizon and compare that with the human-dominated council's response big difference!) While I don't like Cerberus and I want to kill The Illusive Man, I personally he believe he has worthwhile goals which why I have defended keeping the collector base.

[Arijharn]

Poor TIM, he really is just plain misunderstood...

[DJRackham]

GodWood wrote...

DJRackham wrote...
 (SPOILERS AHEAD!!!) 

For all who are stating you would spare The Smoking Illusive Man **IF** he hasn't been indoctrinated, fare warning, it's canon. TIM has been (at least partially) indoctrinated. It''s revealed in the first issue of Mass  Effect Evolution how this happened.

It did nothing of the sort. 

I know... Metagaming. This is true. It is metagaming, but if you played Mass Effect 1, it can actually be deduced (or at least surmised) that TIM had been indoctrinated. All you have to do is look at his eyes. Saren's eyes were very similar. Many of the cut scenes featuring TIM focus on those eyes, as if the Devs were attempting to draw your attention to the fact that something wasn't quite kosher.

Ugh, you didn't actually read the comic did you?

TIM's eyes were fried by an artifact resembling Object Rho and got standard turian cyber ones as replacements.

Object Rho was a Reaper artifact. Reaper artifacts do what?

Yes, I actually did read the comic I referenced. 

Can you please point me to which volume and on which page it states that TIM's eyes were replaced by the Turians? I can't seem to find where this is mentioned. 

Modifié par DJRackham, 29 juillet 2011 - 01:39 .

[Barquiel]

Arijharn wrote...

Poor TIM, he really is just plain misunderstood...

He doesn't exactly hide his agenda...

[Tonymac]

Perfecti0nist wrote...

Well, he's one of my favourite characters in the Mass Effect universe, so this is a tough choice. Normally I would kill any person who has crossed me, but I'm a little biased when it comes to TIM. I can't make the decision until I confront him. I hope he hasn't betrayed Shepard so I can get him on my side. Having TIM in my squad would be the best thing ever.

What can I say, I like the guy.

TIM is coolsauce.  He is a sharp guy, with plenty of experience leading a large organization.  He is very good at the 'big picture' approach of organizing missions.  His knowledge and data bases woud be invaluable.  However, he crosses the line on many occassions.  As a leader who is looking out for humanity, I would like to see compassion towards humans being displayed by the man.  I see none from him.  It is likely that TIM is a renegade, and I have no problem with this - after all, nice guys finish last.  However, if you are looking out for humanity, you don;t need to screw over humans in the process by ruining their lives and kidnapping kids for biotic death camps. 

The other thing that bothers me about TIM is the fact that many alien races are out there and willing to stand by us as allies - allies that we will desperately need.  I get that humans are new in the galactic landscape - and he does not want to see us brushed aside or held back by aliens.  The first contact war is a good example of the aliens being bullies and ****s - I would be weary of them too.  However - it seems he does more harm than good.  We are not at war with these alien races - conflict is unproductive.  Winning at any and all costs simply as humans and not as a galactic resident or part of the community does not seem viable. 

Looking out for humans seems to be a good move.  Even if you save the council in ME1, they simply refuse to help is 'strictly human' matters - such as the Collectors.   For that little fact alone I do not trust them.  There needs to be some one looking out for humans - but not to the level that TIM is.

As far as sparing him......  It will be a judgement call based upon each of my Shepards.

[Nozybidaj]

Klokos wrote...

Kill him to absorb his powers...there can be only one.

This....

[darthnick427]

Yea i'll kill him. He's done A LOT of terroristic actions to other races and his own to last centuries. I'll listen to his reasons for trying to kill me though. If his case is good enough, he'll survive a play through. But on most he will die.

[Seboist]

Saphra Deden wrote...

TIM does have compassion, if he didn't he wouldn't be a pro-human advocate. Looking out for humanity doesn't mean looking out for each individual human.

True, he could be resting in a mansion in Bekenstein drinking expensive liquor and banging a different high class escort each night but instead he busts his ass day and night to advance human rights,interests and survival.

He's a hero no doubt about it.

[Guitar-Hero]

Depends on the situation, he is a viable asset during the right circumstances.

[The Everchosen of Chaos]

Spare him. he may be a lying SOB but he actually knows what he's doing, of course if he makes it personal then no matter where he hides I will find him. you do not mess with Shepard even the Reapers know that. If it was a choice between joining TIm and killing the council or Join the Alliance. I think I would join TIM, nothing against the Alliance but I hate the council.

Either way it's win-win for me.

[Wereparrot]

Events being as they are at present, I'd spare him. I see no reason to execute him at this point, and he did bring Shepard back to life, so Shephard owes him his life. There may be one in other mediums, but I don't know about that.

Edit: Do we know if Tim is against Shepard in ME3, or the main body of Cerburus that Tim has lost control of, or whether it is just Cerberus with Tim having previously left?

Modifié par Wereparrot, 29 juillet 2011 - 02:19 .

[Kaiser Shepard]

Luc0s wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

TIM does have compassion, if he didn't he wouldn't be a pro-human advocate. Looking out for humanity doesn't mean looking out for each individual human.

True, he could be resting in a mansion in Bekenstein drinking expensive liquor and banging a different high class escort each night but instead he busts his ass day and night to advance human rights,interests and survival.

He's a hero no doubt about it.

According to your logic, Saddam Hussein and Adolf Hitler used to be heroes too. And what about Stalin and Mao Zedong? All heroes too I guess eh?

In the eyes of many they were, and probably still are. But let's not derail this topic by going political, as it isn't closing time for this one yet.

[Fugiz]

KILL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! he is an arse. and that is the reason he brought me back after all. to KIIIIIILLLLLL him

[Dean_the_Young]

Luc0s wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

TIM does have compassion, if he didn't he wouldn't be a pro-human advocate. Looking out for humanity doesn't mean looking out for each individual human.

True, he could be resting in a mansion in Bekenstein drinking expensive liquor and banging a different high class escort each night but instead he busts his ass day and night to advance human rights,interests and survival.

He's a hero no doubt about it.

According to your logic, Saddam Hussein and Adolf Hitler used to be heroes too. And what about Stalin and Mao Zedong? All heroes too I guess eh?

Shepard: "Human dominance? Or just Cerberus?"
TIM: "Interest for Cerberus is interest for humanity. Cerberus IS humanity!"

Shepard: "German dominance? Or just the Schutzstaffel?"
Adolf: "Interest for the Schutzstaffel is interest for Germany! The Schutzstaffel IS Germany!"

Well, that's a quantum leap of logic if I ever saw one.

When the leaer of an over-stylized mafia group is logically equivalent to genocidal police-state dictators like Saddam Hussein or Hitler who start wars, we haven't just passed the Godwin's barrier: we've passed the sanity barrier.

[Seboist]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

TIM does have compassion, if he didn't he wouldn't be a pro-human advocate. Looking out for humanity doesn't mean looking out for each individual human.

True, he could be resting in a mansion in Bekenstein drinking expensive liquor and banging a different high class escort each night but instead he busts his ass day and night to advance human rights,interests and survival.

He's a hero no doubt about it.

According to your logic, Saddam Hussein and Adolf Hitler used to be heroes too. And what about Stalin and Mao Zedong? All heroes too I guess eh?

Shepard: "Human dominance? Or just Cerberus?"
TIM: "Interest for Cerberus is interest for humanity. Cerberus IS humanity!"

Shepard: "German dominance? Or just the Schutzstaffel?"
Adolf: "Interest for the Schutzstaffel is interest for Germany! The Schutzstaffel IS Germany!"

Well, that's a quantum leap of logic if I ever saw one.

When the leaer of an over-stylized mafia group is logically equivalent to genocidal police-state dictators like Saddam Hussein or Hitler who start wars, we haven't just passed the Godwin's barrier: we've passed the sanity barrier.

TIM haters like to invent reasons to hate him, like Conrad Verner says "That's how it goes in the biz".