The Illusive Man is the head of a terrorist organization that has committed countless crimes against humanity and the rest of the galaxy. He along with Cerberus is a threat to all species, I WANT to kill him, but the victims, and families of the victims, of his and Cerberus' actions deserve Justice not Vengeance. I don't know what will occur, but I want to say that I will not kill him as it is not MY decision to make. As for Cerberus, it is a terrorist organization made up of xenophobes and extremists that has committed countless crimes, I will take down the organization as keeping it in place would be an insult to the victims.
Will you kill or spare the Illusive Man?
Débuté par
therussianviking
, juil. 27 2011 06:54
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#352
Guest_Tigerblood and MilkShakes_*
Posté 29 juillet 2011 - 11:23
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HiddenKING wrote...
The Illusive Man is the head of a terrorist organization that has committed countless crimes against humanity and the rest of the galaxy. He along with Cerberus is a threat to all species, I WANT to kill him, but the victims, and families of the victims, of his and Cerberus' actions deserve Justice not Vengeance. I don't know what will occur, but I want to say that I will not kill him as it is not MY decision to make. As for Cerberus, it is a terrorist organization made up of xenophobes and extremists that has committed countless crimes, I will take down the organization as keeping it in place would be an insult to the victims.
#354
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Posté 30 juillet 2011 - 12:36
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Wereparrot wrote...
Luc0s wrote...
Wereparrot wrote...
And to clarify what I said about the geth: they are machines, and as such are not truly alive; and insofar as they are creations of a single fallible species rather than either a divine being or the product of evolution; in either case they are abominations. They aren't 'natural'.
"not natural" =/= abomination
Seriously, there is no real difference between you and a geth except that you're organic and a geth is synthetic.
The geth got created by the quarians.
Humans got created by god or "mother nature" (whatever you believe).
The geth evolved and became who they are through evolution. The geth now are not the same as the first original geth created by the quarians.
Humans evolved and became who they are through evolution. The humans now are not the same as the first original humans created by mother nature.
The geth became self-aware through evolution. The original geth created by the quarians weren't self-aware.
Humans became self-aware through evolution. The species humans originated from weren't self-aware.
The geth just want to survive and build on their future.
Humans just want to survive and build on their future.
Tell me, how could you call the geth "abominations" while they are so damn similar to us?
The term "abomination" is a really negative term. Further more, you didn't just say the geth are an abomination, you even said they need to be exterminated. That's REALLY negative. Why so much negativity towards a species that's really just the same as us?
The nature of the geth decrees that they must be abominations; as organics are created by natural means and geth are nothing more than corrupted metal. They are not similar: they have no respiratory system and they are not created by supernatural or natural means (whichever you choose to believe in), but are the product of an existant life-form which could not create them after the manner of a divine being or instigate natural evolution, so therefore geth were created with machines themselves. Their 'evolution' is nothing more than the result of pride.
1) Abomination is a very personal and emotional word, as already explained by someone else. Geth are an abomination in your opinion, but something cannot be an abomination as fact.
2) It doesn't matter how the geth are created. We are created by mother nature, the geth are created by organics like us. So what? Does that make them an abomination? Of course not!
Is your computer an abomination? Is your car an abomination? Do you think your television is an abomination?
3) How geth reproduce doesn't matter either. Besides, it's not so different from us. Both geth and humans use material to reproduce. The only difference is that we use organic materials to reproduce and geth use metal te reproduce. Geth are produced in a factory, humans are produced in an organic "factory" (e.g. the womb).
4) Their evolution is not a result of pride, their evolution is as real as our evolution is. Never heard of artificial evolution? It's evolution taking place in A.I. It happens because A.I. is based on a evolutionary algorithm.
What happened with the geth is what we call neuroevolution. It's evolution taking place in an artificial neural network. Evolutionairy algorithms are used to train the artificial neural network. This is how the geth learn and evolve and this is how they eventually became self-aware.
Besides, it's obvious that "pride" has NOTHING to do with it. When the quarians created the geth, they were simply V.I.'s, nothing more, nothing less. The geth were not created as self-aware computers. The became self-aware through artificial evolution.
Modifié par Luc0s, 30 juillet 2011 - 12:42 .
#355
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 30 juillet 2011 - 12:39
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Luc0s, the geth are nothing like organics. They have no brains, they need no physical bodies at all. The geth are nothing but computer code. They exist independent of any physical shells. You can write a geth's programs down on paper (a lot of paper) and run the programs manually. The process would be incredibly slow (probably more than a human life-time if you punched numbers day and night), but you wind up with a geth that was just as much "alive" as one in a platform.
The difference is since it would have no hardware, being nothing more than numbers written on paper, it would have no mind.
Geth code in sufficient quantities merely mimmicks life, but it is not alive.
The difference is since it would have no hardware, being nothing more than numbers written on paper, it would have no mind.
Geth code in sufficient quantities merely mimmicks life, but it is not alive.
#356
Posté 30 juillet 2011 - 12:41
ThePwener
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Is anyone really planning on sparing him? Im a Cerberus promoter and even I want to kill him and take over Cerberus.
#357
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 30 juillet 2011 - 12:43
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ThePwener wrote...
Is anyone really planning on sparing him? Im a Cerberus promoter and even I want to kill him and take over Cerberus.
The more mature and thoughtful among us have considered it, yes.
#358
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Posté 30 juillet 2011 - 12:53
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Saphra Deden wrote...
Luc0s, the geth are nothing like organics. They have no brains, they need no physical bodies at all. The geth are nothing but computer code. They exist independent of any physical shells. You can write a geth's programs down on paper (a lot of paper) and run the programs manually. The process would be incredibly slow (probably more than a human life-time if you punched numbers day and night), but you wind up with a geth that was just as much "alive" as one in a platform.
The difference is since it would have no hardware, being nothing more than numbers written on paper, it would have no mind.
Geth code in sufficient quantities merely mimmicks life, but it is not alive.
Geth are in fact alive. If you look up the definition of "life" you'll see the definition also fits the geth.
Life: "...is a characteristic that distinguishes objects that have signaling and self-sustaining processes (i. e., living organisms) from those that do not, either because such functions have ceased (death), or else because they lack such functions and are classified as inanimate."
That's what the geth are. The geth have signaling and self-sustaining processes.
The geth are self-aware and thus can be considered as persons, like you and me (though the geth mind works a little different than ours). The geth are therefor not just mimmicking life, they ARE life.
Sure, you can write the whole geth-program on paper, type the code into your computer and voilla, your computer would be a geth, but the same can be said about organics.
Our brains are also nothing but neurons that are either "on" or "off", similar to binary in computers. If we knew exactly how the brain is build up and what each neuron is used for, we could also recreate a human mind into a computer. Heck, in theory it's even possible to make a copy of your own mind and store it as a back-up on a HDD! It's not impossible, we merely lack the knowledge and technology to do it.
So just because the geth are synthetic, doesn't mean they aren't alive!
#359
Posté 30 juillet 2011 - 12:55
goofyomnivore
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If he is a threat to mine, humanity, or the galaxy's safety, yes I would kill him. I don't think TIM is as good as he believes, nor do I think he is as evil as many claim.
#360
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 30 juillet 2011 - 12:57
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Luc0s wrote...
Geth are in fact alive. If you look up the definition of "life" you'll see the definition also fits the geth.
Life: "...is a characteristic that distinguishes objects that have signaling and self-sustaining processes (i. e., living organisms) from those that do not, either because such functions have ceased (death), or else because they lack such functions and are classified as inanimate."
Geth code written out on paper is not alive, yet it can behave normally, only being impaired by its inability to influence the environment.
The definition of life is a nebulous thing, still debated in some circles.
You cannot write a human brain down as computer code, FYI.
You do not know enough about the human brain to assume it can be replicated without actually creating a brain. The brain is governed by physical structures. Geth code is not.
A simulation no matter how convincing is just that, a simulation. It is not real.
#361
Posté 30 juillet 2011 - 01:03
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I have to agree. As a psychology student, I know that we Humans know next to nothing to the machinations of the Human brain. We use less then half of it. For all we know, we could levitate stuff in a few hundred years of genetic tempering.
#362
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Posté 30 juillet 2011 - 01:14
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[quote]Saphra Deden wrote...
Geth code written out on paper is not alive, yet it can behave normally, only being impaired by its inability to influence the environment.
[/quote]
I don't get your point. If we would write down the entire structure of the neural network in our brains on paper, the paper also isn't alive. Maybe I miss your point, but I don't see what relevance it has that you can write down the code of the geth, because we could do the same with the code of the human brain.
Besides, it's not the program or code itself that defines the geth. The neural network is what turned the geth into self-aware and alive beings. Just like the evolution of the human brains is the source of our self-awareness. You cannot run the geth program on inferior hardware. That would not result in a self-aware being. Only within the neural-network with the proper hardware, the geth can become self-aware and thus technically alive.
[quote]Saphra Deden wrote...
The definition of life is a nebulous thing, still debated in some circles.
[/quote]
True.
You cannot write a human brain down as computer code, FYI.[/quote]
Yes you can. In theory you can. We just lack the knowledge to do so. The human brain is so complex that we still haven't figured all neurons and and how they interact with each other. The brain has billions of neurons, while a real-life artificial neural-network only has thousands or millions of nodes.
If we were able to create an artificial neural-network as complex as the human brain, we could in theory store your mind on it and then you would be alive not in a human body, but in an artificial body.
[quote]Saphra Deden wrote...
You do not know enough about the human brain to assume it can be replicated without actually creating a brain.
[/quote]
The neural-network is what defines the brain. We can create artificial neural-networks. Heck, that's how the geth are created! They ARE an artificial neural-network!
[quote]Saphra Deden wrote...
The brain is governed by physical structures. Geth code is not.
[/quote]
As I said, not true. If we can created an artificial neural-network as complex as the human brain, we could in theory store a human mind on it.
A human mind is created through a neural-network. The geth mind is created through a neural-network. In many ways, the geth network is similar to a human brain, and the geth hyve-mind is similar to a human mind.
[quote]Saphra Deden wrote...
A simulation no matter how convincing is just that, a simulation. It is not real.
[/quote]
The geth neural-network is as real as your neural-network in your brain. The fact that the geth neural-network is artificial does not make it less real.
Geth code written out on paper is not alive, yet it can behave normally, only being impaired by its inability to influence the environment.
[/quote]
I don't get your point. If we would write down the entire structure of the neural network in our brains on paper, the paper also isn't alive. Maybe I miss your point, but I don't see what relevance it has that you can write down the code of the geth, because we could do the same with the code of the human brain.
Besides, it's not the program or code itself that defines the geth. The neural network is what turned the geth into self-aware and alive beings. Just like the evolution of the human brains is the source of our self-awareness. You cannot run the geth program on inferior hardware. That would not result in a self-aware being. Only within the neural-network with the proper hardware, the geth can become self-aware and thus technically alive.
[quote]Saphra Deden wrote...
The definition of life is a nebulous thing, still debated in some circles.
[/quote]
True.
You cannot write a human brain down as computer code, FYI.[/quote]
Yes you can. In theory you can. We just lack the knowledge to do so. The human brain is so complex that we still haven't figured all neurons and and how they interact with each other. The brain has billions of neurons, while a real-life artificial neural-network only has thousands or millions of nodes.
If we were able to create an artificial neural-network as complex as the human brain, we could in theory store your mind on it and then you would be alive not in a human body, but in an artificial body.
[quote]Saphra Deden wrote...
You do not know enough about the human brain to assume it can be replicated without actually creating a brain.
[/quote]
The neural-network is what defines the brain. We can create artificial neural-networks. Heck, that's how the geth are created! They ARE an artificial neural-network!
[quote]Saphra Deden wrote...
The brain is governed by physical structures. Geth code is not.
[/quote]
As I said, not true. If we can created an artificial neural-network as complex as the human brain, we could in theory store a human mind on it.
A human mind is created through a neural-network. The geth mind is created through a neural-network. In many ways, the geth network is similar to a human brain, and the geth hyve-mind is similar to a human mind.
[quote]Saphra Deden wrote...
A simulation no matter how convincing is just that, a simulation. It is not real.
[/quote]
The geth neural-network is as real as your neural-network in your brain. The fact that the geth neural-network is artificial does not make it less real.
Modifié par Luc0s, 30 juillet 2011 - 01:40 .
#363
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Posté 30 juillet 2011 - 01:18
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ThePwener wrote...
I have to agree. As a psychology student, I know that we Humans know next to nothing to the machinations of the Human brain. We use less then half of it. For all we know, we could levitate stuff in a few hundred years of genetic tempering.
It's true that we know next to nothing about the complexity of our brain's neural-network, but if we did know every single detail about our neural-network, we could (in theory) recreate it as an artificial neural-network and then we could (in theory) upload and store a human mind on it. Or we could create robots that we can control with our mind by simply linking our brain with the neural-network of the robot. It's all just hypothetical ofcourse, but it's certainly not impossible.
Edit: I doubt we could ever levitate stuff with our minds, unless we could temper with the gravity around us with our minds. But that would mean temperig with the mass of an object and reduce it to zero and though it sounds all cool and nice in Mass Effect, it's impossible to reduce the mass of an object to zero.
Modifié par Luc0s, 30 juillet 2011 - 01:25 .
#364
Posté 30 juillet 2011 - 01:26
Inverness Moon
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Wow, I'm surprised to see someone use the same example as I did several months ago.Saphra Deden wrote...
You can write a geth's programs down on paper (a lot of paper) and run the programs manually. The process would be incredibly slow (probably more than a human life-time if you punched numbers day and night), but you wind up with a geth that was just as much "alive" as one in a platform.
Of course, you know that your example proves little, yes? You could do the same thing with humans, only it would be more difficult because you'd have to map positions of atoms and molecules and accurately calculate how they interact.
Well actually, no, you wouldn't need to go that far, if you know how the brain works (we don't). You'd only need to populate your simulation with brain cells and then accurately simulate how they work.
Individual geth programs are like our brain cells, except the geth only need hundreds to obtain sentience, while we need billions of brain cells.
A simulation no matter how convincing is just that, a simulation. It is not real.
And there's that whole nonsensical, arbitrary "real" argument. Those arguments always involve an illusionary value in being "real."
It's sort of like complaining about how a console emulator on your computer isn't real even though it performs just as well as the actual console.
Modifié par Inverness Moon, 30 juillet 2011 - 01:32 .
#365
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Posté 30 juillet 2011 - 01:38
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Inverness Moon wrote...
Well actually, no, you wouldn't need to go that far, if you know how the brain works (we don't). You'd only need to populate your simulation with brain cells and then accurately simulate how they work.
Yes, you're right. That's how artificial neural-networks work in real-life.
Modifié par Luc0s, 30 juillet 2011 - 01:42 .
#366
Posté 30 juillet 2011 - 01:47
Kaiser Shepard
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Cerberus isn't a terrorist organisation.HiddenKING wrote...
The Illusive Man is the head of a terrorist organization
#367
Posté 30 juillet 2011 - 01:54
GnusmasTHX
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Kill, of course.
There can be only one! .... Illusive Man.
There can be only one! .... Illusive Man.
#368
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 30 juillet 2011 - 02:37
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Inverness Moon wrote...
Of course, you know that your example proves little, yes? You could do the same thing with humans, only it would be more difficult because you'd have to map positions of atoms and molecules and accurately calculate how they interact.
That's a whole different physics debate and depending on the answer this discussion may be totally pointless.
Inverness Moon wrote...
Individual geth programs are like our brain cells, except the geth only need hundreds to obtain sentience, while we need billions of brain cells.
They are only like brain cells in the sense that many of them together creates the appearance of consciousness. In that sense bricks are like brain cells as far as a house is concerned. Many bricks together creates a house.
However each geth program thinks on its own according to Legion. Thus its dilemma on the Heretic station.
Inverness Moon wrote...
And there's that whole nonsensical, arbitrary "real" argument. Those arguments always involve an illusionary value in being "real."
It's sort of like complaining about how a console emulator on your computer isn't real even though it performs just as well as the actual console.
...but it isn't the console, is it? If I were to draw one of Picaso's paintings by hand and do such a perfect job that nobody could tell the difference would my painting be a genuine Picaso work?
#369
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 30 juillet 2011 - 02:46
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Luc0s wrote...
I don't get your point. If we would write down the entire structure of the neural network in our brains on paper, the paper also isn't alive.
Okay then. Think about it like this.
Let's assume you and Inverness Moon are right and we master the human brain so perfectly that we can perfectly simulate it using computer code. We then write this code down on paper and another person comes along and starts running the program manually as I described above.
The code would perfectly mimic your brain so you should actually be able to have a conversation with this code written down on paper. It'd just take you a million years.
There is a problem though: where is the consciousness coming from? In humans we take it our consciousness is something in our mind, our brain. If we simulated the brain on paper though then there would be no neurons, no cortext or frontal lobe, no brain. So where is the consciousness coming from? Where is the mind?
It's just symbols on paper. Are you telling me symbols on paper can be a living, thinking being? That's exactly what a geth is. Legion even tells us this.
"You are a combination of hardware and software. Geth are only software." (that may not be the exact wording)
#370
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Posté 30 juillet 2011 - 03:16
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Saphra Deden wrote...
Okay then. Think about it like this.
Let's assume you and Inverness Moon are right and we master the human brain so perfectly that we can perfectly simulate it using computer code. We then write this code down on paper and another person comes along and starts running the program manually as I described above.
How are you planning to "run" a code from paper? How is that even possible? You can't do that. You'd need a machine, a system to do it.
Saphra Deden wrote...
The code would perfectly mimic your brain so you should actually be able to have a conversation with this code written down on paper. It'd just take you a million years.
No, it's not possible. But if you would write it down in a computer program and run it from there, then it could be possible.
Saphra Deden wrote...
There is a problem though: where is the consciousness coming from? In humans we take it our consciousness is something in our mind, our brain. If we simulated the brain on paper though then there would be no neurons, no cortext or frontal lobe, no brain. So where is the consciousness coming from? Where is the mind?
That's what I was saying. You need a neural network to operate the counsciousness. In fact, the neural network IS the counsciousness.
neural network = consciousness
no neural network = no consciousness.
Saphra Deden wrote...
It's just symbols on paper. Are you telling me symbols on paper can be a living, thinking being? That's exactly what a geth is. Legion even tells us this.
No, a neural network can be a living, thinking being. THAT'S exactly what a geth is.
Legion never said something silly as "a geth is like a code written on a piece of paper". If he did, please quote what he said and where he said that. I'm sure you misunderstood him.
Saphra Deden wrote...
"You are a combination of hardware and software. Geth are only software." (that may not be the exact wording)
What legion is saying here, is that our neural network is physical. Our neural network is a physical manifestation in our brains. The geth neural network is digital. The difference between our brian v.s the geth network is the same difference as an actual DVD v.s a ISO-image. They are the same, except that the DVD is physical and the ISO is digital.
Because the geth is digital and not physical, the geth has the advantage that it can share and upload it's mind to a mobile platform. We as humans can't do that unless we would be able to create an ISO of our brain and then upload a digital copy our mind from our brain to a HDD as a ISO-image file.
Modifié par Luc0s, 30 juillet 2011 - 03:22 .
#371
Posté 30 juillet 2011 - 03:22
HiddenKING
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Kaiser Shepard wrote...
Cerberus isn't a terrorist organisation.HiddenKING wrote...
The Illusive Man is the head of a terrorist organization
They've committed countless crimes including illegal and/or dangerous experimentation, sabotage and assassination. What do you call that? The Girl Scouts?
#372
Posté 30 juillet 2011 - 03:25
goofyomnivore
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They've committed countless crimes including illegal and/or dangerous experimentation, sabotage and assassination. What do you call that? The Girl Scouts?
Not any worse than the Alliance?
#373
Posté 30 juillet 2011 - 03:28
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Fixed.strive wrote...
They've committed countless crimes including illegal and/or dangerous experimentation, sabotage and assassination. What do you call that? The Girl Scouts?
Not any worse than the Specters?
#374
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 30 juillet 2011 - 03:28
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Luc0s wrote...
How are you planning to "run" a code from paper? How is that even possible? You can't do that. You'd need a machine, a system to do it.
No you don't.
#375
Posté 30 juillet 2011 - 03:29
didymos1120
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Luc0s wrote...
How are you planning to "run" a code from paper? How is that even possible? You can't do that. You'd need a machine, a system to do it.
And what does a system do? It calculates things. It just does it very quickly. If consciousness can be reduced to a series of calculations, then it doesn't really matter if a computer is doing them or a person with pencil and paper. Either way, the same things are being calculated.
Modifié par didymos1120, 30 juillet 2011 - 03:29 .
