Which is where the Geth get screwy in the whole sentience discussion. Their hardware is unique and apparently does more than just 'calculate', based on the results. This is the same reason that an AI is different than a VI. The AI's quantum bluebox allowed for spontaneous creation of data links in a truely random maner. The Geth neural network achieved the same thing accidentally, even though individual hardware platforms can only support the equivalent of an advanced VI.didymos1120 wrote...
Luc0s wrote...
How are you planning to "run" a code from paper? How is that even possible? You can't do that. You'd need a machine, a system to do it.
And what does a system do? It calculates things. It just does it very quickly. If consciousness can be reduced to a series of calculations, then it doesn't really matter if a computer is doing them or a person with pencil and paper. Either way, the same things are being calculated.
Will you kill or spare the Illusive Man?
Débuté par
therussianviking
, juil. 27 2011 06:54
#376
Posté 30 juillet 2011 - 03:42
SandTrout
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Retour en haut
#377
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 30 juillet 2011 - 03:44
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What is random about the geth neural network? It's not using quantum technology at all so where would the randomness come from?
#378
Posté 30 juillet 2011 - 04:10
Ultai
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HiddenKING wrote...
Kaiser Shepard wrote...
Cerberus isn't a terrorist organisation.HiddenKING wrote...
The Illusive Man is the head of a terrorist organization
They've committed countless crimes including illegal and/or dangerous experimentation, sabotage and assassination. What do you call that? The Girl Scouts?
They're more like jingoists.
#379
Posté 30 juillet 2011 - 04:33
didymos1120
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HiddenKING wrote...
Kaiser Shepard wrote...
HiddenKING wrote...
The Illusive Man is the head of a terrorist organization
Cerberus isn't a terrorist organisation.
They've committed countless crimes including illegal and/or dangerous experimentation, sabotage and assassination. What do you call that? The Girl Scouts?
Well, I call it being a criminal organization. If they actually start using terror in order to achieve their political/ideological goals, instead of trying to avoid people knowing they're behind things, which is overwhelmingly their standard way of operating, then I'll call them a terrorist organization.
Modifié par didymos1120, 30 juillet 2011 - 04:37 .
#380
Guest_Luc0s_*
Posté 30 juillet 2011 - 04:41
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didymos1120 wrote...
Luc0s wrote...
How are you planning to "run" a code from paper? How is that even possible? You can't do that. You'd need a machine, a system to do it.
And what does a system do? It calculates things. It just does it very quickly. If consciousness can be reduced to a series of calculations, then it doesn't really matter if a computer is doing them or a person with pencil and paper. Either way, the same things are being calculated.
No sorry, but a script is a little more complex then just calculations, especially a script that simulates intelligence (e.g. an A.I. in a video-game).
A script is not simply a list of calculations, but it's a algorithm. The algorithm becomes more complex when the script needs to preform more complex tasks. If you want to create ACTUAL intelligence, the algorithm needs to be so complex that it can learn, adapt and teach itself so it won't make past mistakes again. To create that, you need a neural network and an algorithm that has acces to randomness. This results in an evolutionairy process.
Because the A.I. has acces to randomness, it can form new algorithms and that way it can learn. It's much like Darwinian evolution, except that in an A.I. it's not random mutation v.s natural selection, but random input v.s pattern recognition. This is of course highly over-simplified and in reality it's much much much more complex than how I explain it now, but you get the idea.
Todays computer hardware can hardly sustain a "true A.I.". Actual problem-solving and self-learning A.I.'s require such complex and gigantic algoritms, that you need a super computer to process it all. So I doubt it's EVER possible to write it all down on paper and let one human do all the processing manually.
#381
Posté 30 juillet 2011 - 04:43
Inverness Moon
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Of course its not a console. I don't buy consoles to have consoles, I buy them to play games.Saphra Deden wrote...
...but it isn't the console, is it? If I were to draw one of Picaso's paintings by hand and do such a perfect job that nobody could tell the difference would my painting be a genuine Picaso work?
It doesn't actually matter if its the actual console.
#382
Posté 30 juillet 2011 - 04:45
Inverness Moon
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Consciousness doesn't come from anywhere, it's just what a term used to describe how our brain operates. You seem to be assuming that there would be something missing if you could simulate the human brain in the way you describe.Saphra Deden wrote...
There is a problem though: where is the consciousness coming from? In humans we take it our consciousness is something in our mind, our brain.
#383
Guest_Luc0s_*
Posté 30 juillet 2011 - 04:46
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Saphra Deden wrote...
What is random about the geth neural network? It's not using quantum technology at all so where would the randomness come from?
A true A.I. needs acces to randomness to form new algorithms and evolve itself. Through artificial evolution, the A.I. learns. For artificial evolution, you need random imput.
Even with simple A.I.s for a video-game you sometimes need access to random imput to create an interesting and realistic NPC enemies. If the A.I. that controls the NPC enemies didn't have access to random imput, the enemies would become extremely predictable and every encounter with an enemy would be exactly the same. That would be boring, wouldn't it?
#384
Posté 30 juillet 2011 - 04:48
Inverness Moon
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Except that isn't true. It specifically states in the codex that geth are software only and can be run on any machine with sufficient memory and processing power. They're not like EDI who depends on her quantum bluebox.SandTrout wrote...
Which is where the Geth get screwy in the whole sentience discussion. Their hardware is unique and apparently does more than just 'calculate', based on the results.
#385
Posté 30 juillet 2011 - 04:50
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Our understanding of the neural network is inadequate to answer your question about where the randomness comes in, but it was stated by Tali when she was discussing the Geth, and further reinforced by discussions with Legion. The whole '2 is greater than 1' and '3 is greater than 2' discussion regarding the Heretic Geth comes to mind. Apparently, Geth archetecture allows for differing conclusions based on similar factual data.Saphra Deden wrote...
What is random about the geth neural network? It's not using quantum technology at all so where would the randomness come from?
Do we really know the details involved? No. We do have two sources that have no reason to collaborate for a lie telling us the same thing, though.
#386
Posté 30 juillet 2011 - 04:50
didymos1120
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Luc0s wrote...
A script is not simply a list of calculations, but it's a algorithm.
And what is the system running that script doing at the hardware level?
#387
Posté 30 juillet 2011 - 04:52
SandTrout
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Point taken that their hardware in itself is not necessarily all that unique, but rather, their combination of hardware and sofware.Inverness Moon wrote...
Except that isn't true. It specifically states in the codex that geth are software only and can be run on any machine with sufficient memory and processing power. They're not like EDI who depends on her quantum bluebox.SandTrout wrote...
Which is where the Geth get screwy in the whole sentience discussion. Their hardware is unique and apparently does more than just 'calculate', based on the results.
#388
Guest_Luc0s_*
Posté 30 juillet 2011 - 04:56
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Inverness Moon wrote...
Except that isn't true. It specifically states in the codex that geth are software only and can be run on any machine with sufficient memory and processing power. They're not like EDI who depends on her quantum bluebox.SandTrout wrote...
Which is where the Geth get screwy in the whole sentience discussion. Their hardware is unique and apparently does more than just 'calculate', based on the results.
I think the geth's equivalent to EDI's bluebox would be the fact that they are "legion". The geth are many programs operating simultaniously in a network, each program interacting with each other through imput and output. With one simple algorithm, you can generate random numbers with the imput/output data from the network.
EDI has her bluebox to acess randomness, I guess the geth have a simple program that generates randomness for them and they have acess to that.
#389
Guest_Luc0s_*
Posté 30 juillet 2011 - 04:58
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didymos1120 wrote...
Luc0s wrote...
A script is not simply a list of calculations, but it's a algorithm.
And what is the system running that script doing at the hardware level?
Processing.
Seriously, what kind of question is this?
#390
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 30 juillet 2011 - 05:07
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Inverness Moon wrote...
Consciousness doesn't come from anywhere,
So it doesn't exist?
#391
Posté 30 juillet 2011 - 05:33
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Well I'll hear what he has to say but I do have a plan...
His position for his life. Ignoring how I dislike the amount and sort of screen time Cerberus keep receiving I agree with the concept. Organizations like Cerberus are necessary, I just have some problems with the finer points of the operations. So provided he isn't indoctrinated TIM will be allowed the option of giving me the keys to the minute man and leaving with a sizable chunk of credits. Otherwise I will pry them from his cold dead hands; regardless at the end of the day I want to be the one at the helm of Cerberus.
His position for his life. Ignoring how I dislike the amount and sort of screen time Cerberus keep receiving I agree with the concept. Organizations like Cerberus are necessary, I just have some problems with the finer points of the operations. So provided he isn't indoctrinated TIM will be allowed the option of giving me the keys to the minute man and leaving with a sizable chunk of credits. Otherwise I will pry them from his cold dead hands; regardless at the end of the day I want to be the one at the helm of Cerberus.
#392
Posté 30 juillet 2011 - 12:33
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Luc0s wrote...
Wereparrot wrote...
Luc0s wrote...
Wereparrot wrote...
And to clarify what I said about the geth: they are machines, and as such are not truly alive; and insofar as they are creations of a single fallible species rather than either a divine being or the product of evolution; in either case they are abominations. They aren't 'natural'.
"not natural" =/= abomination
Seriously, there is no real difference between you and a geth except that you're organic and a geth is synthetic.
The geth got created by the quarians.
Humans got created by god or "mother nature" (whatever you believe).
The geth evolved and became who they are through evolution. The geth now are not the same as the first original geth created by the quarians.
Humans evolved and became who they are through evolution. The humans now are not the same as the first original humans created by mother nature.
The geth became self-aware through evolution. The original geth created by the quarians weren't self-aware.
Humans became self-aware through evolution. The species humans originated from weren't self-aware.
The geth just want to survive and build on their future.
Humans just want to survive and build on their future.
Tell me, how could you call the geth "abominations" while they are so damn similar to us?
The term "abomination" is a really negative term. Further more, you didn't just say the geth are an abomination, you even said they need to be exterminated. That's REALLY negative. Why so much negativity towards a species that's really just the same as us?
The nature of the geth decrees that they must be abominations; as organics are created by natural means and geth are nothing more than corrupted metal. They are not similar: they have no respiratory system and they are not created by supernatural or natural means (whichever you choose to believe in), but are the product of an existant life-form which could not create them after the manner of a divine being or instigate natural evolution, so therefore geth were created with machines themselves. Their 'evolution' is nothing more than the result of pride.
1) Abomination is a very personal and emotional word, as already explained by someone else. Geth are an abomination in your opinion, but something cannot be an abomination as fact.
2) It doesn't matter how the geth are created. We are created by mother nature, the geth are created by organics like us. So what? Does that make them an abomination? Of course not!
Is your computer an abomination? Is your car an abomination? Do you think your television is an abomination?
3) How geth reproduce doesn't matter either. Besides, it's not so different from us. Both geth and humans use material to reproduce. The only difference is that we use organic materials to reproduce and geth use metal te reproduce. Geth are produced in a factory, humans are produced in an organic "factory" (e.g. the womb).
4) Their evolution is not a result of pride, their evolution is as real as our evolution is. Never heard of artificial evolution? It's evolution taking place in A.I. It happens because A.I. is based on a evolutionary algorithm.
What happened with the geth is what we call neuroevolution. It's evolution taking place in an artificial neural network. Evolutionairy algorithms are used to train the artificial neural network. This is how the geth learn and evolve and this is how they eventually became self-aware.
Besides, it's obvious that "pride" has NOTHING to do with it. When the quarians created the geth, they were simply V.I.'s, nothing more, nothing less. The geth were not created as self-aware computers. The became self-aware through artificial evolution.
1) I acknowledged it as such in the post that started this argument-I said that the geth were arguably an abomination. Strange though that we can go from planning Tim's death or survival to arguing whether or not the geth are an abomination. There seems to be two completely different discussions here, so maybe if a mod or dev sees this they can split it into two theads and call the one regarding the geth The Geth are an Abomination-Discuss.?
2) The question of whether my laptop is an abomination is ridiculous; because it is not, for want of a better word, 'alive'. If it developed awareness, however, then yes it would be an abomination.
3) If the geth are already classed as abominations by their nature as corrupted metal then the fact fact that they reproduce at all is irrelevant.
4) The quarians created the geth in their pride, this much cannot be denied; therefore everything that the geth do is born of quarian pride. That the geth drove the quarians from their homeworld is the result of their own pride. That the geth evolved into AIs is due to carelessness on the part of the quarians. Pride bred carelessness and this enabled the geth to flourish.
The geth do not have emotions and they cannot die unless they are shut down or killed, and they do not sleep, eat or hibernate. In Legion's loyalty mission the geth appear to be in a state of 'shutdown' that does not resemble sleep or hibernation. They do not breath and blood does not flow through their body. They have nothing resembling the anatomy of any species that is truely alive. How can you claim that the geth are truly alive and like us, considering the above?
#393
Posté 30 juillet 2011 - 12:35
Wereparrot
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Inverness Moon wrote...
Consciousness doesn't come from anywhere, it's just what a term used to describe how our brain operates. You seem to be assuming that there would be something missing if you could simulate the human brain in the way you describe.Saphra Deden wrote...
There is a problem though: where is the consciousness coming from? In humans we take it our consciousness is something in our mind, our brain.
But without consiousness brains are useless.
#394
Guest_Luc0s_*
Posté 30 juillet 2011 - 06:29
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Wereparrot wrote...
1) I acknowledged it as such in the post that started this argument-I said that the geth were arguably an abomination. Strange though that we can go from planning Tim's death or survival to arguing whether or not the geth are an abomination. There seems to be two completely different discussions here, so maybe if a mod or dev sees this they can split it into two theads and call the one regarding the geth The Geth are an Abomination-Discuss.?
2) The question of whether my laptop is an abomination is ridiculous; because it is not, for want of a better word, 'alive'. If it developed awareness, however, then yes it would be an abomination.
3) If the geth are already classed as abominations by their nature as corrupted metal then the fact fact that they reproduce at all is irrelevant.
4) The quarians created the geth in their pride, this much cannot be denied; therefore everything that the geth do is born of quarian pride. That the geth drove the quarians from their homeworld is the result of their own pride. That the geth evolved into AIs is due to carelessness on the part of the quarians. Pride bred carelessness and this enabled the geth to flourish.
The geth do not have emotions and they cannot die unless they are shut down or killed, and they do not sleep, eat or hibernate. In Legion's loyalty mission the geth appear to be in a state of 'shutdown' that does not resemble sleep or hibernation. They do not breath and blood does not flow through their body. They have nothing resembling the anatomy of any species that is truely alive. How can you claim that the geth are truly alive and like us, considering the above?
1) I agree. And yes, we should make a new topic for this subject. I'll do it myself and then I'll PM you the link.
2) Why would your laptop become an abomination as soon as it would develop self-awareness? Why do you feel that way? Why do you think self-awareness should be limited to organics? Why is it bad when synthetics develop self-awarenes?
I really don't see why you think self-awareness should be somehow limited to organics. Besides, it's not as if the geth CHOSE to become self-aware. It just happened. It was an unforeseen event that happened because apperantly the neural network of the geth evolved much faster than the quarians anticipated. It's not as if the quarians are stupid. They knew what they were doing. They simply could never have foreseen that the geth would "wake up" so fast. If they knew, they would have limited the geth producton so the neural network couldn't expand to the size that it became self-aware. Which leads us to point 4, but first point 3.
3) The geth aren't corrupt. They simply evolved naturally, the same way our organic self-awareness evolved. So I don't see how the geth are corrupt and I certainly don't see how the geth are corrupt metal, because the geth aren't metallic, only their bodies are. The geth's mind and body are seperated from each other. The body is merely a vessel to the geth. The actual geth are resident in the geth mainframe. If you kill a geth, you merely destory it's body, not the mind. When you destory geth platforms, you cripple the geth, but you can't kill them that way. Killing a geth platform would be similar to cutting of a limp of an organic. Legion is an exception though. He said he's an independent mobile platform that can operate outside of the geth network. So I guess Legion is special.
So the geth aren't "corrupt metal", because the geth aren't metallic. The geth are software. So they're "corrupt software", except they aren't corrupt.
4) No, the quarians didn't create the geth in their pride. They created the geth for the same reason we humans build robots, machines and tools. The quarians build the geth for work and dangerous jobs. The geth were supposed to be just tools and they were never meant to "wake up".
The fact that the geth DID wake up had nothing to do with carelessness either. The quarians could never have known that the geth would wake up so fast. It was totally unforeseen.
Geth do have emotions. Legion is the direct proof. He wears Shepard's N7 armor for an emotional reason. Maybe Legion himself doesn't even realize this, but I realized it right away. Legion did not use Shepard's old armor just to repair a hole, even though he says he did. There is obviously more to it.
Also, the fact that the geth decided to preserve the quarian home-planet and keep the planet in tact for the quarians so they could one day return is a sign of emotion within the geth. It shows that after everything that happened, the geth still respect their quarian masters.
And about the geth's anatomy: They do resemble our organic anatomy, but you have to look at the geth from another perspective. You have to look at the geth as if they are a big gigantic brain. If you look at the geth from that perspective, then all of the sudden you see they really do share a lot of similarities to organics. The geth are very similar to a giant digital brain.
- Geth run on thousands of programs that run together simultaneously. Each individual program is similar to an individual neuron in your brain. One neuron is worthless, but a lot of neurons working together within a network aren't. Each single neuron as a single task within the network. Operating together, all the neurons can form a consciousness. The geth programs are exactly like this. One geth program is worthless, but thousands of programs linked together in a neural network can form a consciousness.
- When all the programs are linked together, they form an artificial neural network, similar to the neural network within your brain.
- When the neural network becomes complex enough, the neural network becomes self-aware. This is also similar to how the brains of organics function. Our human brain is more complex than the brain of another animal, therefor we are self-aware and other animals aren't.
- The neural network within an organic such as a human expands beyond the brain into the limps of the organic body. The neurons within the limps are connected to the brain's neural network. That way the brain can interact with the limps and organs.
The geth work the same way. The geth neural network can expand itself into mobile platforms that interact with the geth mainframe (e.g. the geth's brain). The mobile platforms function the same way as the limps of an organic function. You could say the geth platforms are the eyes and muscles of the geth.
See? The geth are exactly like organics if you look at the geth from the correct perspective!
Modifié par Luc0s, 30 juillet 2011 - 06:35 .
#395
Guest_Luc0s_*
Posté 30 juillet 2011 - 06:38
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Wereparrot wrote...
Inverness Moon wrote...
Consciousness doesn't come from anywhere, it's just what a term used to describe how our brain operates. You seem to be assuming that there would be something missing if you could simulate the human brain in the way you describe.Saphra Deden wrote...
There is a problem though: where is the consciousness coming from? In humans we take it our consciousness is something in our mind, our brain.
But without consiousness brains are useless.
The neural network (within the brain) = consciousness.
Conciousness is build with neurons connected within a neural network. When the neural network grows in complexity, the consciousness becomes smarter. When the neural network is complex enough, the consciousness can become self-aware. This is what happened with all sapient species, such as the humans. This is also what happened with the geth.
#396
Posté 30 juillet 2011 - 08:54
Inverness Moon
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But that is the whole point I'm trying to make: the geth are purely software. Their hardware is not an aspect of their existence like with organics.SandTrout wrote...
Point taken that their hardware in itself is not necessarily all that unique, but rather, their combination of hardware and sofware.
I didn't say that, let me be more clear. You asked where consciousness comes from if you're simulating the human brain on paper. You seemed to be implying the existence of the soul or something higher like that.Saphra Deden wrote...
Inverness Moon wrote...
Consciousness doesn't come from anywhere,
So it doesn't exist?
But either way, consciousness arises from how the brain functions. It doesn't matter what it is made of as long as it performs the same. It's basically an input-output thing. If this paper brain can receive the same input as a human and produce the same output, then it has consciousness.
Consider the game emulator example I used before. In this case the input is the game program and whatever controller you use, and the output is the video and audio. The important thing is not that the emulator isn't an actual console, but that it allows you to do what the console does. We wouldn't have emulators if people put value in the console itself and not its ability to run games.
Modifié par Inverness Moon, 30 juillet 2011 - 08:59 .
#397
Posté 30 juillet 2011 - 08:56
Uzrbital
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If they make a interactive movie where I choose where and what I'm gonna say, sure, make it! Oh wait, then it's a game.
#398
Posté 30 juillet 2011 - 09:03
therussianviking
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didymos1120 wrote...
HiddenKING wrote...
Kaiser Shepard wrote...
HiddenKING wrote...
The Illusive Man is the head of a terrorist organization
Cerberus isn't a terrorist organisation.
They've committed countless crimes including illegal and/or dangerous experimentation, sabotage and assassination. What do you call that? The Girl Scouts?
Well, I call it being a criminal organization. If they actually start using terror in order to achieve their political/ideological goals, instead of trying to avoid people knowing they're behind things, which is overwhelmingly their standard way of operating, then I'll call them a terrorist organization.
I have to agree here. A terrorist orginization is one that purposly causes terror and chaos to harm as many people as possible. Cerberus doesn't do that- yet. I hate Cerberus, but let's not forget the facts here.
#399
Posté 30 juillet 2011 - 09:52
Les_Carver
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I'll totally spare TIM if he's willing to help me or to redeem himself.
#400
Posté 30 juillet 2011 - 10:54
helenovision
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I think it's going to depend on a number of things. I always had a strong feeling that he was linked to the Reapers...I mean, those eyes! But I don't know what I'm going to do when it comes down to that final decision, if there is one to kill or spare him. I think that they're going to tie up his plot in a most complex, delicious manner, though, whether or not that choice is going to be there. I can't wait. *so excited*
