78 réponses à ce sujet

[Monica21]

Jedimaster88 wrote...
Well in my opinion Anora doesnt show her best side in the landsmeet. She actually wants to execute Alistair, one of the only people who can kill the archdemon just to keep her precious throne. Im not calling that a smart thing to do either.  Alistair has been fighting with the warden agains the blight and hasnt done anything wrong to deserve an execution. Loghain b****** on the other hand has done PLENTY of things to deserve an execution. Ostagar may not be one those things but almost everything else he does after and even before ostagar are totally those things. Put yourself to Alistairs position. What would you do in his position? Would you just dance for joy when the man, who has thrown so much sh** at you, tried to kill you, blamed you for his own dirty work, done many other nasty things and made Fereldens situation worse and worse, is now offered that, what you think is propably the greatest honor and the greatest thing that has happened to you and basically he would get away with everything he did if he survives. How would you react?

Allowing Loghain to become a grey warden and anora executing Alistair doesnt seem like justice and it just feels so wrong to me.

Except that she wants to execute Alistair because he refuses to swear fealty to her. At that point she's been given the crown by the Landsmeet. Her right to rule is not in question. Alistair is a threat to the throne because of his last name. His refusal to swear fealty can fairly be described as an act of treason. She isn't demanding his head out of blind vengeance, she simply understands the political nature and possible consequences of what he did.

Well, I wouldn't be in Alistair's position, to be frank. The Wardens are not the glorious organization he makes them out to be. He questions your decisions all along the way. Alistair is, in some ways, more blinded by the Wardens than Cailan was because of Duncan's death. He glorifies the Wardens because he glorified Duncan. If I learn anything about traveling with Alistair it's that he's unable to make difficult decisions. 

Loghain doesn't get away with anything, and that's what Alistair fails to realize. By becoming a Warden his land and titles are stripped. He might not survive the Joining, and if he does, and if he survives the Blight, the taint will take him sooner because of his age. He might have five years. Loghain still receives a death sentence, but he just gets a chance to make himself a bit more useful before that death.

[Monica21]

Merle McClure II wrote...

You're right, a tactical retreat isn't murder, the only problem is that unless I'm misremembering the Noble Blood origan story Loghain had already started making plans and allies to secure his bid for power long before the battle. The king was never meant to survive that battle and I find it alittle odd that it was Loghain's men who "cleared" the tower in the first place.

Of course, I might be misremembering and reading too much between the lines, but I'd posit that even if I'm completely wrong about the battle, Loghain's actions afterwards in trying to kill the last two people in his kingdom that are actually capable of ending the Blight in order to seize the crown is just as bad if not worse.

If you're referring to the Cousland massacre as part of Loghain's attempt to seize power, that's entirely Howe's doing and nothing to do with Loghain. He didn't even know about it. I do believe that Loghain had been taking steps to depose Cailan, but not to kill him. Cailan is a weak king, and if you play through RtO with or without Loghain you'll get the letter about the "permanant alliance" with Orlais in a letter directly from Celene. Cailan allying himself with Celene is a direct threat to Anora. Loghain understands this, not to mention it's Orlais. 

As for Cailan surviving the battle, I'm no tactician but I would imagine it's very difficult to orchestrate a single death in a battle. The dialogue before the battle also tells me that Loghain repeatedly tried to keep Cailan from the front lines. As for Loghain's men clearing the tower, well, the giant hole in the floor was made by the ogre. The darkspawn dug their way through. Loghain had nothing to do with that either.

Trying to kill the remaining Wardens isn't his most brilliant move, but it is a move to secure power. I'm pretty ambivalent about it, to be honest. He's wrong about the Wardens and wrong about the Blight, but this is also the first time Loghain is wrong about these things.

[tmp7704]

Monica21 wrote...

If you're referring to the Cousland massacre as part of Loghain's attempt to seize power, that's entirely Howe's doing and nothing to do with Loghain. He didn't even know about it.

The point is i believe, it's not the sort of thing that anyone would attempt without knowledge the person in charge of the country is about to change, and so they'd be able to get away with it.

There's also the matter of poisoning Eamon which was also performed in advance, and for that Loghain is responsible directly.

[Monica21]

tmp7704 wrote...
The point is i believe, it's not the sort of thing that anyone would attempt without knowledge the person in charge of the country is about to change, and so they'd be able to get away with it.

There's also the matter of poisoning Eamon which was also performed in advance, and for that Loghain is responsible directly.

Howe doesn't need to "get away with" anything. He just needs to make sure no Couslands survive. Notice his anxiety when Duncan is first introduced. Duncan later tells Cailan "he would have told you any story he wished." There was no collusion between Loghain and Howe and Gaider has said this.

The poisoning of Eamon is what I was referring to when I said that Loghain was taking steps to depose Cailan.

[tmp7704]

Monica21 wrote...

Except that she wants to execute Alistair because he refuses to swear fealty to her. At that point she's been given the crown by the Landsmeet. Her right to rule is not in question. Alistair is a threat to the throne because of his last name. His refusal to swear fealty can fairly be described as an act of treason. She isn't demanding his head out of blind vengeance, she simply understands the political nature and possible consequences of what he did.

That is incorrect. Anora calls for Alistair's head without even giving him option to swear fealty first.

Alistair: I guess I don't have any choice, do I? I'm leaving.
Anora: I'm afraid it's not so simple as that, Alistair.
Alistair: You already got what you wanted. Your murdering father gets a place amongst the Grey Wardens. What else could you want from me?
Anora: Your life, unfortunately. So long as you live, rebellions can be raised in your name. Our land cannot endure another civil war. I must call for your execution.

in fact, only if you use your boon with Anora at this point she demands oath from him to renounce all claims to the throne, and he gives it without hesitation.

[Monica21]

tmp7704 wrote...
That is incorrect. Anora calls for Alistair's head without even giving him option to swear fealty first.

Alistair: I guess I don't have any choice, do I? I'm leaving.
Anora: I'm afraid it's not so simple as that, Alistair.
Alistair: You already got what you wanted. Your murdering father gets a place amongst the Grey Wardens. What else could you want from me?
Anora: Your life, unfortunately. So long as you live, rebellions can be raised in your name. Our land cannot endure another civil war. I must call for your execution.

in fact, only if you use your boon with Anora at this point she demands oath from him to renounce all claims to the throne, and he gives it without hesitation.

Ah, thanks for the dialogue. I still have to side with Anora on this point though. She's is correct and her status is still fragile. 

[tmp7704]

Monica21 wrote...

Howe doesn't need to "get away with" anything. He just needs to make sure no Couslands survive.

What, and you expect there would be then no outcry to punish the murderer of family that had power equal to Loghain himself? It's not like Couslands lived in vacuum and no soul would never notice what happened to them.

The poisoning of Eamon is what I was referring to when I said that Loghain was taking steps to depose Cailan.

Planning to depose the ruling king (and acting towards it) is treason, plain and simple.

Modifié par tmp7704, 31 juillet 2011 - 10:28 .

[Monica21]

[quote]tmp7704 wrote...
What, and you expect there would be then no outcry to punish the murderer of family that had power equal to Loghain himself? It's not like Couslands lived in vacuum and no soul would never notice what happened to them.[/quote]
What Duncan meant is the same thing Bryce tells you. Howe plans to advance himself. Of course people will notice, I never said that people wouldn't. I said that Howe would place the blame on someone else rather than take responsibility for it. (Would be a bit silly to do if he were trying to advance himself, yes?) I thought that was rather clear.

[quote][quote]The poisoning of Eamon is what I was referring to when I said that Loghain was taking steps to depose Cailan.
[/quote]
Planning to depose the ruling king is treason, plain and simple.[/quote][/quote]
If Loghain does it at a Landsmeet it's not treason. The king is elected. Cailan is not serving by divine right. If Loghain has proof that Cailan is colluding with Orlais then he has every right to seek his removal. 

[tmp7704]

Monica21 wrote...

Of course people will notice, I never said that people wouldn't. I said that Howe would place the blame on someone else rather than take responsibility for it. (Would be a bit silly to do if he were trying to advance himself, yes?) I thought that was rather clear.

Considering the attack happens on the very night of Howe's arrival to Couslands and is performed by the force he personally brought, blaming someone else would be rather difficult. Isn't it quite simpler to accept Howe never planned to be charged with anything to begin with, because he knew his friend Loghain was about to take over?

If Loghain does it at a Landsmeet it's not treason. The king is elected.

Since not only Loghain didn't do it at the Landsmeet, but also sought to poison the one person who could call such a gathering --effectively preventing the nobles from electing actual king-- that point is moot. Loghain performed illegal power grab and planned in advance to keep it this way.

[Monica21]

tmp7704 wrote...
Considering the attack happens on the very night of Howe's arrival to Couslands and is performed by the force he personally brought, blaming someone else would be rather difficult. Isn't it quite simpler to accept Howe never planned to be charged with anything to begin with, because he knew his friend Loghain was about to take over?

No it isn't, and not just because Gaider has stated that Loghain and Howe were not plotting together. It's actually quite a bit simpler to believe what the dialogue says instead of trying to stretch the truth. Loghain has committed many acts that are beyond the law, but being part of the Cousland massacre is not one of them.

Since not only Loghain didn't do it at the Landsmeet, but also sought to poison the one person who could call such a gathering --effectively preventing the nobles from electing actual king-- that point is moot. Loghain performed illegal power grab and planned in advance to keep it this way.

Loghain didn't do anything because the Darkspawn appeared. And why would you think Eamon is the only person who can call a Landsmeet? Loghain is a Teryn in his own right and has his own authority to call one. What he was attempting to do was prevent Eamon's influence being heard if he did call a Landsmeet. As for the legality of it, I'm not sure if poisoning without attempt to murder is a crime in Ferelden, so I have no idea if it's illegal.

[tmp7704]

Monica21 wrote...

No it isn't, and not just because Gaider has stated that Loghain and Howe were not plotting together. It's actually quite a bit simpler to believe what the dialogue says instead of trying to stretch the truth. Loghain has committed many acts that are beyond the law, but being part of the Cousland massacre is not one of them.

Ah no, i think you misunderstood my point. I'm not saying Loghain knew about Howe's plan to murder Couslands. I'm saying Howe planned to murder Couslands because he knew of Loghain's plan to get rid of Cailan.

Loghain didn't do anything because the Darkspawn appeared. And why would you think Eamon is the only person who can call a Landsmeet? Loghain is a Teryn in his own right and has his own authority to call one.

If i recall right it is said that's the main reason behind Eamon's poisoning -- because he's one person with enough authority to do that. Yes, Loghain could also do that and didn't, at least not for the purpose of electing the next king after the previous one died at Ostagar. His stance was instead "I'm a regent now, deal with it." And then he chose to fight the nobles who said "no".
 

As for the legality of it, I'm not sure if poisoning without attempt to murder is a crime in Ferelden, so I have no idea if it's illegal.

Why on earth wouldn't it be? Know of any law system which had a clause "poisoning people is fine as long as they don't die as a result"?

In any case it is certainly illegal when it involves harbouring an apostate and utilizing blood magic. We get the Grand Cleric say as much if you choose to bring it up.

[Monica21]

tmp7704 wrote...
Ah no, i think you misunderstood my point. I'm not saying Loghain knew about Howe's plan to murder Couslands. I'm saying Howe planned to murder Couslands because he knew of Loghain's plan to get rid of Cailan.

That would still imply that Loghain was colluding with Howe before Ostagar and we know this isn't true because Gaider said so. Howe doesn't need to collude with Loghain to kill the Couslands. He just needs a story to sell to Cailan.

If i recall right it is said that's the main reason behind Eamon's poisoning -- because he's one person with enough authority to do that. Yes, Loghain could also do that and didn't, at least not for the purpose of electing the next king after the previous one died at Ostagar. His stance was instead "I'm a regent now, deal with it." And then he chose to fight the nobles who said "no".

Eamon is a powerful Arl and has a great deal of influence. Loghain can steamroll the Landsmeet without Eamon, but can't with Eamon. That's the only reason to keep him out of the picture. Eamon is so powerful that all it takes is his brother speaking up to spark the civil war. As for after Ostagar, we don't know if that was a true Landsmeet or not. My impression is that it wasn't, with the nobles scattered and/or dead, there may not have been enough present. It may simply have consisted of the nobles currently in Denerim. Yes, declaring himself regent is done rather ham-handedly, there's no question about that. That's why I maintain that he's done enough outside the law that there's no reason to ascribe things to him that he didn't do.
 

Why on earth wouldn't it be? Know of any law system which had a clause "poisoning people is fine as long as they don't die as a result"?

In any case it is certainly illegal when it involves harbouring an apostate and utilizing blood magic. We get the Grand Cleric say as much if you choose to bring it up.

No, but I'm also not a legal scholar and this isn't a modern legal system.

Again, also outside the law. I don't see any reason to heap unjustified claims on him when there are plenty of justified claims.

[LazyDaisy]

Monica21 wrote...

Merle McClure II wrote...

The fact that a darkspawn delievered the literal blow doesn't take away the fact that Loghain is the one who bares full responcibility for Ducan's death.

Your signal was late. The horde was larger than expected. Loghain knows your signal is late, and even if he doesn't know why, late is late. (And I'd even suggest that that if he'd known that the darkspawn had dug behind your own lines and were fighting you in the tower, he'd probably have retreated sooner.) Even if he had charged, who's to say that he could have made it to Cailan and Duncan in time? How does Loghain even know where Cailan and Duncan are? 

A tactical retreat is not murder.

Seriously.  The signal was late because it was never meant to be sent ... Loghain knew that there was a problem in the tower.  When you first arrive in Ostagar you have the chance to speak with a soldier guarding the gates to the tower.  I haven't been there in a while so I don't remember exactly what he says BUT he does say that the tower is off limits due to some sort of a problem.  The likelihood of an experienced strategist such as Loghain not knowing what was going on in the tower is pretty slim.  At best he knew there was a problem even if he didn't know what it was. So, the signal ... meh ... probably not a good argument for his behaviour or maybe he isn't the brilliant strategist everyone makes him out to be.  

Also, there is a reason that 'being sent to the front' is a scary thing for any soldier ... life expectancy is not very high ... plus Cailan is wearing very shiny gold armour and would stick out like a sore thumb to an enemy force ... and Loghain would have known that.   I agree that he tried to talk Cailan out of going but once the order was given, his duty was to execute (no pun intended) the plan that he himself developed.  To retreat at that point is cowardice or malice / murder.  Take your pick.

The point of the attack was to draw the horde out with a smaller force and then flank them with Loghain's main force ... so leaving the field of battle when he did condemed not only Duncan and Cailan but every other soldier on that field of battle.  Again, this was Loghain's plan that everyone was following ... except Loghain himself apparently ... and for that we are supposed to applaud him?  No.  Who knows what would have happened if he went into battle ... we don't have enough information to form a definite opinion ... if his plan was good, why not execute it?  If his plan was bad, why does the game keep saying he is a tactical phenom?  If he is a great tactician and strategist, then it follows that he intentionally left Cailan to die. (though I think that decision was made once the signal was lit and not before).  As the leader of Ferelden's forces, he had a responsibility to his king.  He didn't think the blight was real so, other than bolstering martial support for his own cause, he had no military reason to turn away.

The fact that he promptly started spreading rumors of a grey warden plot to murder Cailan further underscores that he did not expect anyone to survive ... all of the g/w but two were in the battle.  There would be no one left to tell a different tale.

[tmp7704]

Monica21 wrote...

That would still imply that Loghain was colluding with Howe before Ostagar and we know this isn't true because Gaider said so. Howe doesn't need to collude with Loghain to kill the Couslands. He just needs a story to sell to Cailan.

Do you have a link to Mr.Gaider's post, by chance? That'd help because even the description of Howe's in the Toolset implies quite a different thing. Plus, it makes little sense for Loghain to make Howe his right-hand man practically overnight, which would be the case if these two had no deals earlier.

Loghain can steamroll the Landsmeet without Eamon, but can't with Eamon.

Loghain cannot steamroll the Landsmeet even without Eamon -- his attempt to pacify the nobles resulted in a civil war that's ongoing for months while you're working on the treaties and waking Eamon up. If he could do it, don't you think he'd use exactly this method to unite all nobles behind him instead of fighting them and bleeding the country, wasting time and resources while Blight happened around them?
 

Again, also outside the law. I don't see any reason to heap unjustified claims on him when there are plenty of justified claims.

Err, what unjustified claims? Even Loghain grudgingly acknowledges it's something he'll "answer for later" when it becomes clear he can't lie his way out of it.

Modifié par tmp7704, 01 août 2011 - 12:12 .

[Jedimaster88]

Monica21 wrote...

Jedimaster88 wrote...
Well in my opinion Anora doesnt show her best side in the landsmeet. She actually wants to execute Alistair, one of the only people who can kill the archdemon just to keep her precious throne. Im not calling that a smart thing to do either.  Alistair has been fighting with the warden agains the blight and hasnt done anything wrong to deserve an execution. Loghain b****** on the other hand has done PLENTY of things to deserve an execution. Ostagar may not be one those things but almost everything else he does after and even before ostagar are totally those things. Put yourself to Alistairs position. What would you do in his position? Would you just dance for joy when the man, who has thrown so much sh** at you, tried to kill you, blamed you for his own dirty work, done many other nasty things and made Fereldens situation worse and worse, is now offered that, what you think is propably the greatest honor and the greatest thing that has happened to you and basically he would get away with everything he did if he survives. How would you react?

Allowing Loghain to become a grey warden and anora executing Alistair doesnt seem like justice and it just feels so wrong to me.

Except that she wants to execute Alistair because he refuses to swear fealty to her. At that point she's been given the crown by the Landsmeet. Her right to rule is not in question. Alistair is a threat to the throne because of his last name. His refusal to swear fealty can fairly be described as an act of treason. She isn't demanding his head out of blind vengeance, she simply understands the political nature and possible consequences of what he did.

Well, I wouldn't be in Alistair's position, to be frank. The Wardens are not the glorious organization he makes them out to be. He questions your decisions all along the way. Alistair is, in some ways, more blinded by the Wardens than Cailan was because of Duncan's death. He glorifies the Wardens because he glorified Duncan. If I learn anything about traveling with Alistair it's that he's unable to make difficult decisions. 

Loghain doesn't get away with anything, and that's what Alistair fails to realize. By becoming a Warden his land and titles are stripped. He might not survive the Joining, and if he does, and if he survives the Blight, the taint will take him sooner because of his age. He might have five years. Loghain still receives a death sentence, but he just gets a chance to make himself a bit more useful before that death.

Well we dont know how long he will live if he survives the final battle. Alistairs dialogue about Loghain living in DA2 act 3, gives me the image that the man is still alive and breathing well. He says something like: "Sadly Loghain still lives". Act 3 is about 7 years after the blight, according to the game but Im not sure how accurate it is. From what I´ve seen from his dialogue in youtube, he didnt seem that upset about losing his lands or titles. I know its a title given by Maric and you would think he says some thoughts about losing it but he doesnt. He seems to be like "ah whatever, it was just a title, nothing more". Correct me if Im wrong.

Anders is an example of that you can leave the wardens. You just carry the taint but that doesnt bother him. He finds friends, maybe even a loved one and does little explosion stuff but I dont go to that. Loghain may obey orders, but what is actually stopping him if he gets some funny ideas again? I dare say he can still live a pretty good life as a warden if he chooses. Being a warden is a punishment itself thing is a point of view. I´ve never thought being a warden as a punishment but more as an honor that comes with a burden if you survive. Its a chance to do something really important in your life. Not everyone gets that chance.

I´ve always thought Alistair holds the wardens in high value, because Duncan was like a father to him just like Loghain is father to Anora. Duncan  gave him a purpose and according to his own words, Duncan was the first person, who cared about what he wanted. He seemed happy with the wardens and I think he considered them to be a family for him. Those kinds of things have a strong influence to your mind.

Alistair didnt seem to paint the wardens to be great heroes. He even says this to you at ostagar. I dont remember the exact dialogue but its something like this:

Warden: What are they? heroes? Knights?

Alistair: I dont know if I would go that far. According to Duncan the grey wardens do whatever is necessary and that means some pretty extreme things.

I think Alistair is capable of making difficult decisions. He just doesnt have enough confidence in himself because everyone has always been making decisions for him and he didnt get to say much. Every party member has some personal struggles and its up to you as a player to decide if you want to help them with those struggles. Everyone can change and so can your party members. They start with something but end with something else if you bother to be a good leader and a friend to them. We all know Morrigan is a totally different person by the end of the game if she stays with the warden and approval is at max. Hardened Alistair is more confident and is more willing to be king. He does a good job according to the epilogue and even better if married to anora. He is not a lost cause, he just needs someone to show him the way.

[LazyDaisy]

Jedimaster88 wrote...
I think Alistair is capable of making difficult decisions. He just doesnt have enough confidence in himself because everyone has always been making decisions for him and he didnt get to say much. Every party member has some personal struggles and its up to you as a player to decide if you want to help them with those struggles. Everyone can change and so can your party members. They start with something but end with something else if you bother to be a good leader and a friend to them. We all know Morrigan is a totally different person by the end of the game if she stays with the warden and approval is at max. Hardened Alistair is more confident and is more willing to be king. He does a good job according to the epilogue and even better if married to anora. He is not a lost cause, he just needs someone to show him the way.

So true. Well said.

[Monica21]

LazyDaisy wrote...
Seriously.  The signal was late because it was never meant to be sent ... Loghain knew that there was a problem in the tower.  When you first arrive in Ostagar you have the chance to speak with a soldier guarding the gates to the tower.  I haven't been there in a while so I don't remember exactly what he says BUT he does say that the tower is off limits due to some sort of a problem.  The likelihood of an experienced strategist such as Loghain not knowing what was going on in the tower is pretty slim.  At best he knew there was a problem even if he didn't know what it was. So, the signal ... meh ... probably not a good argument for his behaviour or maybe he isn't the brilliant strategist everyone makes him out to be.  

Seriously! Inorite?! Anyway, yes, seriously. No, your signal was not meant to be late. When you talk to the guard he says they found tunnels under the tower. That's it. No mention of darkspawn, nothing. You'd have to believe that Loghain made a deal with the darkspawn (who are unthinking and mindless) to believe that you were sent into a trap. Cue Admiral Akbar.

Also, there is a reason that 'being sent to the front' is a scary thing for any soldier ... life expectancy is not very high ... plus Cailan is wearing very shiny gold armour and would stick out like a sore thumb to an enemy force ... and Loghain would have known that.   I agree that he tried to talk Cailan out of going but once the order was given, his duty was to execute (no pun intended) the plan that he himself developed.  To retreat at that point is cowardice or malice / murder.  Take your pick.

What does Cailan's armor have to do with anything, except to make the ogre that squished him say "Ooo! Shiny!" Cailan volunteered and Loghain said "I must repeat my objection..." or something very similar in the War Council meeting. Yes, he tried to talk Cailan out of it.

Are you stating now that every retreat in the history of the world is either cowardice, malice, or murder and that there can be no such thing as a retreat to save the lives of the remaining forces? Because that's what Loghain did and that's what I've already stated. Please reread if you need to.

The point of the attack was to draw the horde out with a smaller force and then flank them with Loghain's main force ... so leaving the field of battle when he did condemed not only Duncan and Cailan but every other soldier on that field of battle.  Again, this was Loghain's plan that everyone was following ... except Loghain himself apparently ... and for that we are supposed to applaud him?  No.  Who knows what would have happened if he went into battle ... we don't have enough information to form a definite opinion ... if his plan was good, why not execute it?  If his plan was bad, why does the game keep saying he is a tactical phenom?  If he is a great tactician and strategist, then it follows that he intentionally left Cailan to die. (though I think that decision was made once the signal was lit and not before).  As the leader of Ferelden's forces, he had a responsibility to his king.  He didn't think the blight was real so, other than bolstering martial support for his own cause, he had no military reason to turn away.

Remember the part earlier when I said the horde was larger than expected? It was. People who aren't Loghain say it was. Your idea of what the plan was is correct, but if the horde is larger Loghain's forces risk getting sandwiched in the darkspawn horde. Flanking a force as large as that will not work. 

If he'd gone into battle he would have lost and Cailan would still have died. I'm quite sure of this, and I'm also quite sure that I'm basing my opinion on Gaider's statements. It's unfortunate that the game didn't do a good job of showing them.

As the leader of Ferelden's forces Loghain had a responsibility to Ferelden. Again, Cailan does not serve by divine right. This is a semi-feudal monarchy with an elected king. 

The fact that he promptly started spreading rumors of a grey warden plot to murder Cailan further underscores that he did not expect anyone to survive ... all of the g/w but two were in the battle.  There would be no one left to tell a different tale.

The fact that he does this shows that he needs to retain whatever fragile grip he has on power. He knows the nation is weak and yes, he believes that he can defeat the darkspawn and hold Ferelden together. He's suspicious (rightly so, if you've read The Calling) of the Grey Wardens. I can't say that I wouldn't do the same in his position.

[Monica21]

tmp7704 wrote...
Do you have a link to Mr.Gaider's post, by chance? That'd help because even the description of Howe's in the Toolset implies quite a different thing. Plus, it makes little sense for Loghain to make Howe his right-hand man practically overnight, which would be the case if these two had no deals earlier.

Gaider's posts are over a year old and in a different thread. I don't have time to find them, but I think they're in the "In Defense of Loghain Mac Tir" thread. 

As for Howe, he's the second most powerful man in Ferelden, after Loghain. (I would say third, but Eamon is, of course, unconcious.) Loghain needs armies and Howe can provide them. Howe is much more likely to attach himself to Loghain than Loghain is to go seeking Howe's aid. 

Loghain cannot steamroll the Landsmeet even without Eamon -- his attempt to pacify the nobles resulted in a civil war that's ongoing for months while you're working on the treaties and waking Eamon up. If he could do it, don't you think he'd use exactly this method to unite all nobles behind him instead of fighting them and bleeding the country, wasting time and resources while Blight happened around them?

Well, to be fair to Loghain, the only person who can win a Landsmeet is your Warden. Loghain wins by default even with Eamon there. The problem with expecting Loghain to be able to unite the nobles after Ostagar his plan relied on evidence that Cailan was colluding with Orlais. With no king no one cares about evidence.
 

Err, what unjustified claims? Even Loghain grudgingly acknowledges it's something he'll "answer for later" when it becomes clear he can't lie his way out of it.

Unjustified claims of treason and regicide.

[K_Tabris]

Well, the answer to your solution, Butterfly Effect is to harden Alistair and remain his Chancellor or Princess Consort. And pretend the badly timed break-up scene never happened.

OR, romance any of the three other characters, as they are all wonderful in there own ways.

[Monica21]

Jedimaster88 wrote...
Well we dont know how long he will live if he survives the final battle. Alistairs dialogue about Loghain living in DA2 act 3, gives me the image that the man is still alive and breathing well. He says something like: "Sadly Loghain still lives". Act 3 is about 7 years after the blight, according to the game but Im not sure how accurate it is. From what I´ve seen from his dialogue in youtube, he didnt seem that upset about losing his lands or titles. I know its a title given by Maric and you would think he says some thoughts about losing it but he doesnt. He seems to be like "ah whatever, it was just a title, nothing more". Correct me if Im wrong.

I haven't played DA2 so I can't comment on that, but the older a Warden is when going through the Joining the less time he has. And, really? Alistair said that about a fellow Warden? 

Being a warden is a punishment itself thing is a point of view. I´ve never thought being a warden as a punishment but more as an honor that comes with a burden if you survive. Its a chance to do something really important in your life. Not everyone gets that chance.

Yes, a burden to keep people alive. A burden to burn down a village to save lives. A burden to take on pickpockets and blood mages and not be picky about who joins. Your job is to defend against the darkspawn, not be the morality police.

I´ve always thought Alistair holds the wardens in high value, because Duncan was like a father to him just like Loghain is father to Anora. Duncan  gave him a purpose and according to his own words, Duncan was the first person, who cared about what he wanted. He seemed happy with the wardens and I think he considered them to be a family for him. Those kinds of things have a strong influence to your mind.

No, not "just like" if only because Loghain is Anora's actual father. Alistair knew Duncan for six months. Yes, Duncan gave him a purpose, but Alistair didn't get to know Duncan very well. Players know Dunan better than Alistair did because we have the books Gaider wrote.

Alistair didnt seem to paint the wardens to be great heroes. He even says this to you at ostagar. I dont remember the exact dialogue but its something like this:

Warden: What are they? heroes? Knights?

Alistair: I dont know if I would go that far. According to Duncan the grey wardens do whatever is necessary and that means some pretty extreme things.

Exactly. But when the rubber meets the road and the "extreme thing" of taking Loghain on as a Warden rears its head, Alistair abandons the Order if you don't execute Loghain. Gotta walk the talk.

I think Alistair is capable of making difficult decisions. He just doesnt have enough confidence in himself because everyone has always been making decisions for him and he didnt get to say much. Every party member has some personal struggles and its up to you as a player to decide if you want to help them with those struggles. Everyone can change and so can your party members. They start with something but end with something else if you bother to be a good leader and a friend to them. We all know Morrigan is a totally different person by the end of the game if she stays with the warden and approval is at max. Hardened Alistair is more confident and is more willing to be king. He does a good job according to the epilogue and even better if married to anora. He is not a lost cause, he just needs someone to show him the way.

No, he isn't used to making decisions and doesn't when the position of "most senior Warden in Ferelden" is thrust upon him. I understand this for gameplay purposes, but my Wardens haven't made a lot of difficult decisions either and they seemed to find the way. Sometimes you have to chose things that aren't easy or popular, and this is nowhere near as evident as it is when Alistair rips into you if you do anything but go to the Tower. Alistair simply doesn't want to disappoint.

Modifié par Monica21, 01 août 2011 - 12:58 .

[Addai]

NovinhaShepard wrote...

Well, the answer to your solution, Butterfly Effect is to harden Alistair and remain his Chancellor or Princess Consort. And pretend the badly timed break-up scene never happened.

OR, romance any of the three other characters, as they are all wonderful in there own ways.

Or seek therapy for repeatedly trolling about this unhealthy obsession. 

[Zaxares]

I'm certain that Loghain had the betrayal planned well in advance. There's simply too much evidence against him not to believe otherwise. His hiring of Jowan to poison Eamon is the most damning bit of evidence, but his support of Howe despite the massacre of the Couslands because the Couslands would be strong allies of the Gweirins is also a big giveaway. Then there's his infamous "a glorious moment for us all" line during the War Council. The expression on his face makes it quite clear that he had something untoward in mind.

Perhaps Anora was right, and he wanted to give Cailan the chance to escape from the battle by dissuading him from fighting in the front lines, but it's obvious that he's been planning for a long time to erode Cailan's power base. One way or another, he was going to stop Cailan from becoming a strong king (and forging his alliance with the Orlesians).

As far as Alistair's little tantrum at the Landsmeet goes, I have to say that it also surprised me greatly. While I can understand his complete hatred of Loghain for massacring the Grey Wardens and hounding them ever since, I always got the impression that Alistair ultimately prefers to let others make the decisions, and what better way than to defer to Riordan, a MUCH senior and experienced Grey Warden who probably knows what he's talking about when he says "compelling reasons" to have as many Grey Wardens as possible when facing the Archdemon.

It wasn't Alistair's greatest moment, but I still like the doofus.

[Mike3207]

In the Ostagar dialogue, Loghain makes it clear that he had a hard choice to face in whether to save Cailan or retreat:

Loghain- "What you forget is that your king was beyond saving. The darkspawn would either have had him or have had us all. Do you really believe we would have been so much better off had I chosen otherwise?"

Whether you want to believe him or not is a separate issue. Loghain clearly believes though that the whole army would have been lost if he hadn't retreated at Ostagar. He does try and talk the King out of being on the front lines, for what that's worth.

[Merle McClure II]

I personally don't believe that he is telling the truth in that statement. As for him trying to talk the boy-child (Yeah, I don't much care for King Cailan either.) out of fighting in the front lines if Loghain is as good at reading people as he is suposed to be it isn't a huge stretch to figure that his objections was aimed at being able to put blame off him later and that he knew the boy-child had too many visions of legends in his head to do anything else.

[Monica21]

Zaxares wrote...

I'm certain that Loghain had the betrayal planned well in advance. There's simply too much evidence against him not to believe otherwise. His hiring of Jowan to poison Eamon is the most damning bit of evidence, but his support of Howe despite the massacre of the Couslands because the Couslands would be strong allies of the Gweirins is also a big giveaway. Then there's his infamous "a glorious moment for us all" line during the War Council. The expression on his face makes it quite clear that he had something untoward in mind.

Gaider said Loghain had plans in place to eventually confront Cailan. This isn't in question. Gaider also said that Loghain didn't go to Ostagar with the intent to kill Cailan. "Cailan's death was his own doing." Absolutely. The "glorious moment for us all" line is just as much to do with "oooo, drama!" than with anything else. Just like the front line firing exactly one volley of arrows before sending in their Mabari and charging the Darkspawn.

Perhaps Anora was right, and he wanted to give Cailan the chance to escape from the battle by dissuading him from fighting in the front lines, but it's obvious that he's been planning for a long time to erode Cailan's power base. One way or another, he was going to stop Cailan from becoming a strong king (and forging his alliance with the Orlesians).

Again, not in question. What you get a hint of in RtO, and what Gaider confirmed in an interview, Cailan was planning on divorcing Anora and marrying Celene. There was supposed to be a side-story with Celene in Denerim during the Blight but they just couldn't fit it all in. (Although it would have been fantastically interesting.) Loghain has both love of country and love of daughter in mind when attempting to shut Cailan down.