78 réponses à ce sujet

[Monica21]

Merle McClure II wrote...

I personally don't believe that he is telling the truth in that statement.

What would he have to gain by lying?

[Merle McClure II]

It depends on whether he is lying to the Warden or to himself. Both are distict possiblities.

[Monica21]

Merle McClure II wrote...

It depends on whether he is lying to the Warden or to himself. Both are distict possiblities.

Battle of Ostagar: social.bioware.com/56308/blog/10285/ With pictures! 

[Bleachrude]

Cailan fighting from the front is NOT stupid given that the entire history of Ferelden nobles including the king is of them fighting from the front. From Calenhad go down, the whole point of Ferelden is that the nobles are, unlike the other Thedian nations, ones where they fight in the thick of things...

Why is this so hard to understand for everyone? Especially in medieval society, the king wasnt like our modern day presidents and such who simply watch things from afar..Indeed, for England, the only time the monarch didn't fight was after Cromwell where ironically the power of the monarchy was curtailed (well, the queens of course didn't fight...)

Hell, we see both Eamon and Loghain fighting in Denerim, the Couslands were supposed to be at Ostagar (and the heir Fergus wasn't simply sitting in a tent collecting reports but actually being sent out into the wilds on a scouting mission) and if you're saving Loghain because he makes a great general, what the hell do you have him in your actual squad based party for?

(BTW, that picture still makes Loghain look like an idiot...person who designed a battle plan that leaves no out for half an army is an idiot....plain and simple)

Seriously, you're defending a man who bails out on his own battle-plan and leaves half the army to perish...Three options..either he's an idiot for coming up with a pisspoor plan, OR he's a coward or he's a traitor...

Alistair and Loghain...Not once do we ever get Loghain to admit..."Er, well, I kinda lied and said that the Wardens caused the death of the king and everyone..."

Really, if Loghain is such a deep character, just man up and state up front.."Look, I came up with the plan but I screwed up and it was my fault that half the army was lost..." I would actually respect Loghain...

Taking the EASY way out and blaming your failure on the Grey Wardens? (People that Alistair actually considered family?)

Again, if Anora is the consumate politician, she moreso than alistair who is younger than her by almost a decade, should have been the bigger person and swallowed her distate and married alistair or the male PC if they executed Loghain...

Can't play the "oh, Anora is daddy's girl when the whole point is that Anora is supposed to be above such minor concerns)

Landsmeet et al: Everyone is a fool there...really, was there no alcove where we could talk things through beforehand?

[Monica21]

Bleachrude wrote...

Cailan fighting from the front is NOT stupid given that the entire history of Ferelden nobles including the king is of them fighting from the front. From Calenhad go down, the whole point of Ferelden is that the nobles are, unlike the other Thedian nations, ones where they fight in the thick of things...

Why is this so hard to understand for everyone? Especially in medieval society, the king wasnt like our modern day presidents and such who simply watch things from afar..Indeed, for England, the only time the monarch didn't fight was after Cromwell where ironically the power of the monarchy was curtailed (well, the queens of course didn't fight...)

Hell, we see both Eamon and Loghain fighting in Denerim, the Couslands were supposed to be at Ostagar (and the heir Fergus wasn't simply sitting in a tent collecting reports but actually being sent out into the wilds on a scouting mission) and if you're saving Loghain because he makes a great general, what the hell do you have him in your actual squad based party for?

(BTW, that picture still makes Loghain look like an idiot...person who designed a battle plan that leaves no out for half an army is an idiot....plain and simple)

Seriously, you're defending a man who bails out on his own battle-plan and leaves half the army to perish...Three options..either he's an idiot for coming up with a pisspoor plan, OR he's a coward or he's a traitor...

Alistair and Loghain...Not once do we ever get Loghain to admit..."Er, well, I kinda lied and said that the Wardens caused the death of the king and everyone..."

Really, if Loghain is such a deep character, just man up and state up front.."Look, I came up with the plan but I screwed up and it was my fault that half the army was lost..." I would actually respect Loghain...

Taking the EASY way out and blaming your failure on the Grey Wardens? (People that Alistair actually considered family?)

Again, if Anora is the consumate politician, she moreso than alistair who is younger than her by almost a decade, should have been the bigger person and swallowed her distate and married alistair or the male PC if they executed Loghain...

Can't play the "oh, Anora is daddy's girl when the whole point is that Anora is supposed to be above such minor concerns)

Landsmeet et al: Everyone is a fool there...really, was there no alcove where we could talk things through beforehand?

The point being made with Loghain attempting to keep Cailan from the front lines is that if Loghain had intended on murder by darkspawn he wouldn't have tried to keep him away. As it is, he did. Loghain also repeatedly got angry at Maric for insisting on fighting, but that happened to work out. Maric also tended to fight for the rebellion. Cailan wants to fight for the glory. That is most definitely stupid.

Did you read the post or just look at the pretty pictures? As for the "out" for half the army, I assume you're referring to the Wardens and Cailan? Well, it's a hammer and anvil strategy. (Of course, you seem to be a master strategist so pardon me for stating what you already know.) I'm sure you'll also remember that it was Cailan's idea to make the stand at Ostagar. Loghain did his best to make the plan work. You can't always have an out.

The rest of your post descended into a lot of rambling angryness so I'm uncertain how to respond.

Modifié par Monica21, 01 août 2011 - 02:11 .

[Plaintiff]

Alistair is a mofo alright. The most badass mofo there is. Dumping the warden for political reasons is nothing compared to the crap Loghain and Anora pull, and it should be common knowledge by now that you can work around that anyway.

[tmp7704]

Monica21 wrote...

As for Howe, he's the second most powerful man in Ferelden, after Loghain. (I would say third, but Eamon is, of course, unconcious.)

What is that based on? At the point Origins happen Howe is just an arl of Amaranthine, and there's quite a few other arlings in Ferelden. I don't recall reading anything implying he was more powerful than others, let alone the second man in Ferelden.

Well, to be fair to Loghain, the only person who can win a Landsmeet is your Warden. Loghain wins by default even with Eamon there. The problem with expecting Loghain to be able to unite the nobles after Ostagar his plan relied on evidence that Cailan was colluding with Orlais. With no king no one cares about evidence.

Doesn't this contradict itself? If Loghain is capable of winning the Landsmeet even with Eamon being there and without bringing up any evidence, then why should this evidence be crucial to winning it earlier when similarly no one cares about it? It also renders the whole Eamon poisoning pointless, but that's another story.
 

Unjustified claims of treason and regicide.

They are not unjustified. So far the only argument against them you could invoke was a purely theoretical scenario (planning to throw Cailan down at Landsmeet) for which there's no evidence, and which in fact did not happen.

[tmp7704]

Monica21 wrote...

I'm sure you'll also remember that it was Cailan's idea to make the stand at Ostagar. Loghain did his best to make the plan work. You can't always have an out.

That's something they are both responsible for, actually. Ferelden on its own didn't have army large enough to face such amount of darkspawn anywhere but at chokepoint like Ostagar, and Loghain absolutely refused Cailan's suggested alternative of joining forces with the reinforcements from Orlais. You can see it pretty well during the war council -- if there's a viable alternative to these two options, Loghain was either unable or unwilling to provide it.

Modifié par tmp7704, 01 août 2011 - 04:05 .

[LazyDaisy]

Monica21 wrote...

LazyDaisy wrote...
Seriously.  The signal was late because it was never meant to be sent ... Loghain knew that there was a problem in the tower.  When you first arrive in Ostagar you have the chance to speak with a soldier guarding the gates to the tower.  I haven't been there in a while so I don't remember exactly what he says BUT he does say that the tower is off limits due to some sort of a problem.  The likelihood of an experienced strategist such as Loghain not knowing what was going on in the tower is pretty slim.  At best he knew there was a problem even if he didn't know what it was. So, the signal ... meh ... probably not a good argument for his behaviour or maybe he isn't the brilliant strategist everyone makes him out to be.  

Seriously! Inorite?! Anyway, yes, seriously. No, your signal was not meant to be late. When you talk to the guard he says they found tunnels under the tower. That's it. No mention of darkspawn, nothing. You'd have to believe that Loghain made a deal with the darkspawn (who are unthinking and mindless) to believe that you were sent into a trap. Cue Admiral Akbar.

Also, there is a reason that 'being sent to the front' is a scary thing for any soldier ... life expectancy is not very high ... plus Cailan is wearing very shiny gold armour and would stick out like a sore thumb to an enemy force ... and Loghain would have known that.   I agree that he tried to talk Cailan out of going but once the order was given, his duty was to execute (no pun intended) the plan that he himself developed.  To retreat at that point is cowardice or malice / murder.  Take your pick.

What does Cailan's armor have to do with anything, except to make the ogre that squished him say "Ooo! Shiny!" Cailan volunteered and Loghain said "I must repeat my objection..." or something very similar in the War Council meeting. Yes, he tried to talk Cailan out of it.

Are you stating now that every retreat in the history of the world is either cowardice, malice, or murder and that there can be no such thing as a retreat to save the lives of the remaining forces? Because that's what Loghain did and that's what I've already stated. Please reread if you need to.

The point of the attack was to draw the horde out with a smaller force and then flank them with Loghain's main force ... so leaving the field of battle when he did condemed not only Duncan and Cailan but every other soldier on that field of battle.  Again, this was Loghain's plan that everyone was following ... except Loghain himself apparently ... and for that we are supposed to applaud him?  No.  Who knows what would have happened if he went into battle ... we don't have enough information to form a definite opinion ... if his plan was good, why not execute it?  If his plan was bad, why does the game keep saying he is a tactical phenom?  If he is a great tactician and strategist, then it follows that he intentionally left Cailan to die. (though I think that decision was made once the signal was lit and not before).  As the leader of Ferelden's forces, he had a responsibility to his king.  He didn't think the blight was real so, other than bolstering martial support for his own cause, he had no military reason to turn away.

Remember the part earlier when I said the horde was larger than expected? It was. People who aren't Loghain say it was. Your idea of what the plan was is correct, but if the horde is larger Loghain's forces risk getting sandwiched in the darkspawn horde. Flanking a force as large as that will not work. 

If he'd gone into battle he would have lost and Cailan would still have died. I'm quite sure of this, and I'm also quite sure that I'm basing my opinion on Gaider's statements. It's unfortunate that the game didn't do a good job of showing them.

As the leader of Ferelden's forces Loghain had a responsibility to Ferelden. Again, Cailan does not serve by divine right. This is a semi-feudal monarchy with an elected king. 

The fact that he promptly started spreading rumors of a grey warden plot to murder Cailan further underscores that he did not expect anyone to survive ... all of the g/w but two were in the battle.  There would be no one left to tell a different tale.

The fact that he does this shows that he needs to retain whatever fragile grip he has on power. He knows the nation is weak and yes, he believes that he can defeat the darkspawn and hold Ferelden together. He's suspicious (rightly so, if you've read The Calling) of the Grey Wardens. I can't say that I wouldn't do the same in his position.

There is no reason to suspect that he was in collusion with the darkspawn nor have I suggested as much.  I reiterate what I said in that I do not believe Loghain made the decision to walk away until the very last minute but he was trying to control the situtation so that all decisions would be made by him alone.  Which is tactically smart but damning given the outcome.

The armour ... oh shiny ... yes, its shiny but my point being that the shiny armour makes him a beacon ... an obvious target ... and it does make a difference.  In modern forces (I recognize that this a totally different hypothetical time period) rank is difficult to see and often unacknowledged in the field so as to protect the identity of the leader of the group.  There are many very good reasons for that. Things were different back then but not providing back up to the guy in the shiny gold suit basically condemned him to death.  

I don't need to re-read your post.  I have not suggested that EVERY retreat is cowardice or murder, only this one and for very specific reasons.  Cailan may have been looking for glory but he was also willing to wait until the forces from Orlais (and the Orlesian wardens) showed up ... Loghain insisted the Orlesian forces were unneccessary and that his plan and the forces they had were sufficient.  He was Cailan's top military advisor so why would Cailan doubt Loghain's assurance of the strength of his forces? Given his history, this is not a man afraid of long odds or incapable of developing strong tactical plans.  He chose not to enter the fray.  I don't doubt that Cailan would have died anyway (otherwise it would be a tad difficult to place Alistair or anyone else on the throne and the whole storyline would have fallen apart) but that is not the point ... I would have liked and respected Loghain if he had at least made some effort or shown some remorse. He did neither.

I know you keep referencing Gaider's comments about Loghain's intentions but it is a testement to the quality and ambiguity in the writing of this character that discussions such as this happen.  Since not everyone has read threads from over a year ago and not everyone who plays DA:O has read the books perhaps it is a tad unfair to reference those sources when discussing perceptions of in-game activities or storylines.   
 
I think Loghain is flawed, and in his arrogance, cost a lot of people their lives.  Perhaps we can agree to disagree.

[Monica21]

 

tmp7704 wrote...What is that based on? At the point Origins happen Howe is just an arl of Amaranthine, and there's quite a few other arlings in Ferelden. I don't recall reading anything implying he was more powerful than others, let alone the second man in Ferelden.

Howe is recognized as the Teryn of Highever. Since Teryns are just below the king and there is no king, he's the second most powerful after Loghain.

Doesn't this contradict itself? If Loghain is capable of winning the Landsmeet even with Eamon being there and without bringing up any evidence, then why should this evidence be crucial to winning it earlier when similarly no one cares about it? It also renders the whole Eamon poisoning pointless, but that's another story.

I'm relying on metagaming knowledge. Loghain doesn't know he can win but I do as a player. In addition, the circumstances are different. In this theoretical scenario Loghain would have to prove Cailan did not deserve to be the king of Ferelden and have him removed from the throne. I'd say that would have been a much more difficult task than proving that he acted outside the interest of Ferelden. In fact, if you bring up Ostagar at the Landsmeet you're pretty much shouted down by the other nobles. 

They are not unjustified. So far the only argument against them you could invoke was a purely theoretical scenario (planning to throw Cailan down at Landsmeet) for which there's no evidence, and which in fact did not happen.

Not entirely theoretical. Gaider did say that Loghain was planning to confront Cailan and needed to have his ducks in a row before he did so. Whether he planned to confront him publicly or privately is only known to Gaider, if he really ever thought about it.

That's something they are both responsible for, actually. Ferelden on its own didn't have army large enough to face such amount of darkspawn anywhere but at chokepoint like Ostagar, and Loghain absolutely refused Cailan's suggested alternative of joining forces with the reinforcements from Orlais. You can see it pretty well during the war council -- if there's a viable alternative to these two options, Loghain was either unable or unwilling to provide it.

Interestingly, Cailan was more than willing to accept help from the Orlesians, but when Duncan reminds Cailan that his uncle (Eamon) has forces that can arrive in Ostagar in just a few days, Cailan laughs it off. He's more than willing to accept Orlesian forces but shuns additional Ferelden forces. I'm not a Ferelden general and I find that suspicious.

[Monica21]

LazyDaisy wrote...
There is no reason to suspect that he was in collusion with the darkspawn nor have I suggested as much.  I reiterate what I said in that I do not believe Loghain made the decision to walk away until the very last minute but he was trying to control the situtation so that all decisions would be made by him alone.  Which is tactically smart but damning given the outcome.

You suggested that Loghain was in control of the tower and that you weren't supposed to send the beacon at all. What was the point in suggesting that if not to imply that Loghain intended for darkspawn to kill you? 

The armour ... oh shiny ... yes, its shiny but my point being that the shiny armour makes him a beacon ... an obvious target ... and it does make a difference.  In modern forces (I recognize that this a totally different hypothetical time period) rank is difficult to see and often unacknowledged in the field so as to protect the identity of the leader of the group.  There are many very good reasons for that. Things were different back then but not providing back up to the guy in the shiny gold suit basically condemned him to death.

What, Loghain is Cailan's squire now? I have no idea why you insist on bringing up Cailan's shiny armor. It's the king's armor. Did you want to hear Loghain arguing with Cailan about how he shouldn't wear shiny armor? Really?

I don't need to re-read your post.  I have not suggested that EVERY retreat is cowardice or murder, only this one and for very specific reasons.  Cailan may have been looking for glory but he was also willing to wait until the forces from Orlais (and the Orlesian wardens) showed up ... Loghain insisted the Orlesian forces were unneccessary and that his plan and the forces they had were sufficient.  He was Cailan's top military advisor so why would Cailan doubt Loghain's assurance of the strength of his forces? Given his history, this is not a man afraid of long odds or incapable of developing strong tactical plans.  He chose not to enter the fray.  I don't doubt that Cailan would have died anyway (otherwise it would be a tad difficult to place Alistair or anyone else on the throne and the whole storyline would have fallen apart) but that is not the point ... I would have liked and respected Loghain if he had at least made some effort or shown some remorse. He did neither.

First, I'll restate what I said earlier. Cailan was willing to wait for Orlesian forces but not for Redcliffe's. I think that's far more damning evidence against Cailan. And second, have you ever bothered to spare Loghain? You will hear remorse, so your point is moot.

I know you keep referencing Gaider's comments about Loghain's intentions but it is a testement to the quality and ambiguity in the writing of this character that discussions such as this happen.  Since not everyone has read threads from over a year ago and not everyone who plays DA:O has read the books perhaps it is a tad unfair to reference those sources when discussing perceptions of in-game activities or storylines.

It's not unfair because the quotes are there. They are the developers intentions. No, you didn't read them a year ago but that doesn't make developer intentions any less valid. And to be fair to in-game actions, KnightofPhoenix has pretty much given up posting in Loghain threads (<_<) but he does an excellent job explaining his actions without reference to developer quotes.
 

I think Loghain is flawed, and in his arrogance, cost a lot of people their lives.  Perhaps we can agree to disagree.

I believe Loghain is flawed too. He is arrogant, he is somewhat dangerous, he made poor decisions after Ostagar, but he is not beyond redemption and he does not deserve to die for his crimes.

[Bleachrude]

Er no...Cailan's plan was to WAIT for the Orlesians.

Loghain said no, I can come up with a battleplan that doesn't require the Orlesians.

So yeah, Ostagar is totally Loghain's fault...

[Jedimaster88]

Monica21 wrote...


I believe Loghain is flawed too. He is arrogant, he is somewhat dangerous, he made poor decisions after Ostagar, but he is not beyond redemption and he does not deserve to die for his crimes.

And Alistair doesnt deserve to die just because he is maric´s son or because he wants Loghain dead. As someone has said, neither choise is perfect. There are two nasty choises and you simply choose which one is the lesser evil. From a roleplaying point of view, Loghain DOES NOT show much signs of remorse. Yes he shows some later, but thats only AFTER the landsmeet if you spare him. My human noble warden pretty much hates loghain for what he did and he doesnt trust Loghain at all. From a personal point of view as a player, I want people of Ferelden to know it was my warden and Alistair who saved the day rightfully, NOT loghain. He had his chance and he only made things worse even though he could have done so many things in a much better way. I could respect Loghain a bit more if he even said he is sorry and admits he falsely accused the wardens without any clear evidence, but he doesnt, at least not in the clips I have seen and from what I have heard from other people. We will see if my opinion about him changes when I someday order the stolen throne and the calling. Many people hate Morrigan, (Not me personally. I like her very much even with all that disaproval thing:D and I romance her), and they say she is a cruel, evil person or something. Well even Morrigan says genuinely "I´m sorry" in right situations. That is one of the things I like about her. She does show genuine feelings despite what she says about weaknesses and such.

I still dont consider Anoras decision to execute Alistair a smart thing to do. She could have used her skills of persuadin or something, not offer the sword right away. Did she consider what happens if loghain doesnt survive the joining? And before that happens, she orders Alistair executed. That way there would be even less wardens at hand than before. Great thinking there anora <_<...

Modifié par Jedimaster88, 01 août 2011 - 09:33 .

[Jedimaster88]

Monica21
"I haven't played DA2 so I can't comment on that, but the older a Warden is when going through the Joining the less time he has. And, really? Alistair said that about a fellow Warden? :blink:"


That he did. I saw it from youtube. This happens when you marry a hardened Alistair to Anora and Loghain survives the final battle. In this scene, Alistair meets Hawke as a king, not as a warden plus we all know how he feels about Loghain so I wouldnt call Loghain a fellow warden to him. If executed and Aveline mentions ostagar and how what happened there was a terrible tragedy, Alistair responds: "Yes that it was. Thankfully the man responsible has paid for that.". I also happened to see some interesting scenes some time ago, where Hawke meets a drunken Alistair in a tavern. He pretty much cursed the wardens and their joining ritual,about loghain and how he should have been hanged, and in sorrow says something like: "Im sorry Duncan, I failed you". He also mutters something about being a prince and lets not forget the best part "swooping is bad":D.


Monica21
"No, not "just like" if only because Loghain is Anora's actual father. Alistair knew Duncan for six months. Yes, Duncan gave him a purpose, but Alistair didn't get to know Duncan very well. Players know Dunan better than Alistair did because we have the books Gaider wrote."


Of course I know Loghain is anora´s actual father. Poor choise of words and I apologize for it.

Modifié par Jedimaster88, 01 août 2011 - 09:53 .

[Monica21]

Bleachrude wrote...

Er no...Cailan's plan was to WAIT for the Orlesians.

Loghain said no, I can come up with a battleplan that doesn't require the Orlesians.

So yeah, Ostagar is totally Loghain's fault...

At this point you're just being willfully ignorant, so, thanks for playing.

[Monica21]

Jedimaster88 wrote...
And Alistair doesnt deserve to die just because he is maric´s son or because he wants Loghain dead.

Well, I don't kill Alistair either. I either marry him to Anora or let him leave. My canon lets him leave. IIf there is a reason to execute Alistair though, it's for abandoning the Wardens. Jory was killed simply because he wouldn't drink, but it's probably not a good idea to go killing the last living Theirin in the middle of the Landsmeet.

From a roleplaying point of view, Loghain DOES NOT show much signs of remorse. Yes he shows some later, but thats only AFTER the landsmeet if you spare him. My human noble warden pretty much hates loghain for what he did and he doesnt trust Loghain at all. From a personal point of view as a player, I want people of Ferelden to know it was my warden and Alistair who saved the day rightfully, NOT loghain. He had his chance and he only made things worse even though he could have done so many things in a much better way. I could respect Loghain a bit more if he even said he is sorry and admits he falsely accused the wardens without any clear evidence, but he doesnt, at least not in the clips I have seen and from what I have heard from other people. We will see if my opinion about him changes when I someday order the stolen throne and the calling.

I'm not sure what people want. Does he need to cry big sobby tears on the floor of the Landsmeet? "Loghain needs to say sorry" just doesn't cut it and feels too much like grasping at straws. He is on his knees in front of you, said he underestimated you, and then yields. Expecting a blubbery apology from an infantry general is reaching a bit, don't you think?

I still dont consider Anoras decision to execute Alistair a smart thing to do. She could have used her skills of persuadin or something, not offer the sword right away. Did she consider what happens if loghain doesnt survive the joining? And before that happens, she orders Alistair executed. That way there would be even less wardens at hand than before. Great thinking there anora <_<...

I understand why Anora wants to kill Alistair, but to be fair, no one in that room except Riordan understand why the Wardens are needed to kill an archdemon. He is a threat to her throne as long as he's alive, and she wants him executed for the same reason Bhelen wanted Harrowmont executed. She can't begin her reign as the sole Queen of Ferelden worrying if there are going to be uprisings in Alistair's name.

[Monica21]

Jedimaster88 wrote...

Monica21
"I haven't played DA2 so I can't comment on that, but the older a Warden is when going through the Joining the less time he has. And, really? Alistair said that about a fellow Warden? :blink:"


That he did. I saw it from youtube. This happens when you marry a hardened Alistair to Anora and Loghain survives the final battle. In this scene, Alistair meets Hawke as a king, not as a warden plus we all know how he feels about Loghain so I wouldnt call Loghain a fellow warden to him. If executed and Aveline mentions ostagar and how what happened there was a terrible tragedy, Alistair responds: "Yes that it was. Thankfully the man responsible has paid for that.". I also happened to see some interesting scenes some time ago, where Hawke meets a drunken Alistair in a tavern. He pretty much cursed the wardens and their joining ritual,about loghain and how he should have been hanged, and in sorrow says something like: "Im sorry Duncan, I failed you". He also mutters something about being a prince and lets not forget the best part "swooping is bad":D.

Really, if Bioware wanted my opinion of Alistair to drop even farther, that just did it. I think he's a little too old and far to lucky to be in the position he is to bemoan the fact that his wife's father is still alive. And I would imagine he'll feel quite a bit like a "fellow" Warden when his thirty years are up.

[Jedimaster88]

Monica21 wrote...


I'm not sure what people want. Does he need to cry big sobby tears on the floor of the Landsmeet? "Loghain needs to say sorry" just doesn't cut it and feels too much like grasping at straws. He is on his knees in front of you, said he underestimated you, and then yields. Expecting a blubbery apology from an infantry general is reaching a bit, don't you think?

I still dont consider Anoras decision to execute Alistair a smart thing to do. She could have used her skills of persuadin or something, not offer the sword right away. Did she consider what happens if loghain doesnt survive the joining? And before that happens, she orders Alistair executed. That way there would be even less wardens at hand than before. Great thinking there anora <_<...

I understand why Anora wants to kill Alistair, but to be fair, no one in that room except Riordan understand why the Wardens are needed to kill an archdemon. He is a threat to her throne as long as he's alive, and she wants him executed for the same reason Bhelen wanted Harrowmont executed. She can't begin her reign as the sole Queen of Ferelden worrying if there are going to be uprisings in Alistair's name.

Well i quess that depends on the person. Those simple words "Im sorry" or something similar, do have a certain magical affect on me personally. When someone says those words in the real world or in videogames, I cant think that badly about that person anymore.

I do blame a bit Riordan about the landsmeet situation. He should have opened his mouth at that point and just tell the truth. Maybe alistair would have been more understanding about the situation etc. Im not sure was it more about not wanting outsiders to hear or that he simply assumed the warden and Alistair already knew the truth. Still it could have changed things had he only told the truth and not talk in riddles:"...compelling reasons...".

If you want, check Alistair´s DA2 scenes from youtube. Should be pretty easy to find. You can check if  he commented like I mentioned, because I dont remember the exact words he used. Dont want to give people false information after all.

[Mike3207]

As to why Anora kills Alistair, I'm reminded of a scene between Loghain and Morrigan. If you have Loghain go through the ritual with Morrigan, he specifically asks her about the possibility Anora would have to contend with the child putting in the claim to the throne, as the child would be her brother. She specifically states she'll never return to Ferelden-lie and the child will never know their father. Both Anora and Loghain seem to want to eliminate all possibilities to take the throne.

[Monica21]

Mike Smith wrote...

As to why Anora kills Alistair, I'm reminded of a scene between Loghain and Morrigan. If you have Loghain go through the ritual with Morrigan, he specifically asks her about the possibility Anora would have to contend with the child putting in the claim to the throne, as the child would be her brother. She specifically states she'll never return to Ferelden-lie and the child will never know their father. Both Anora and Loghain seem to want to eliminate all possibilities to take the throne.

To be fair, Alistair wants to ensure the same when he agrees. It's not an unusual thing for rulers to want to prevent their thrones being taken.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

With Alistair, it's more than that, though. Alistair is a far more emotional person. His concerns weren't just the throne, it was the fact that Morrigan, a person he disliked immensely and who he felt was never up to anything but bad, wanted to create an old god baby from an archdemon soul, something he probably personally thought was on the evil side by nature. Plus, it meant having to have sex with someone who he not only had no love for, but even loathed. I think personal ethics played a part more than pragmatism in Alistair's case. Though I'm sure he thought the throne angle was also scary and something to be avoided.

[Bleachrude]

Monica21 wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

Er no...Cailan's plan was to WAIT for the Orlesians.

Loghain said no, I can come up with a battleplan that doesn't require the Orlesians.

So yeah, Ostagar is totally Loghain's fault...

At this point you're just being willfully ignorant, so, thanks for playing.

Really? 

How so?

Maybe I'm missing a scene but I do have Cailan explictly mention that he wants to wait for the Orlesians to face the horde, Loghain says quite explictly no we don't need them...

So how exactly does this become Cailan's plan if his plan was "join up with the Orlesians".

re: Penalty for Loghain

Let's assume for a moment there was no blight.
Exactly what punishment does he deserve for poisoning an arl?

Modifié par Bleachrude, 02 août 2011 - 11:25 .

[Monica21]

Bleachrude wrote...
Really? 

How so?

Maybe I'm missing a scene but I do have Cailan explictly mention that he wants to wait for the Orlesians to face the horde, Loghain says quite explictly no we don't need them...

So how exactly does this become Cailan's plan if his plan was "join up with the Orlesians".

re: Penalty for Loghain

It was Cailan's plan to make the stand at Ostagar. With regard to forces, he refused Redcliffe's which would have taken less time to get there. (Seriously, I think this is the fourth time I've said this.) As for whether it's a penalty for Loghain, as a player I've read The Stolen Throne, my character's father fought in the rebellion with Loghain, she knows Ferelden's history. I didn't want Orlesian boots on the ground. It's either a wash or a penalty to Cailan for being an idiot.

Let's assume for a moment there was no blight.
Exactly what punishment does he deserve for poisoning an arl?

Depends on who wins. The winners write the history. But being no fan of Eamon myself, I'm not really concerned with an unconcious arl.

Modifié par Monica21, 02 août 2011 - 02:44 .

[Mike3207]

One of the things about the pre-Landsmeet dialogue I've never understood is that certain parts of the dialogue have no effect on the Landsmeet. For example, you get a opportunity to tell Alistair you'll be supporting Anora. He says he's relieved, but Eamon would blow a gasket if he found out. Surely he has to know it's possible that you may need to spare Loghain since he's her father? Overall I enjoy the Landsmeet, but things like that detract from the experience.

[Wulfram]

Monica21 wrote...

I understand why Anora wants to kill Alistair, but to be fair, no one in that room except Riordan understand why the Wardens are needed to kill an archdemon. He is a threat to her throne as long as he's alive, and she wants him executed for the same reason Bhelen wanted Harrowmont executed. She can't begin her reign as the sole Queen of Ferelden worrying if there are going to be uprisings in Alistair's name.

Using your first action as reigning Queen to establish yourself as an arbitrary tyrant who will kill anyone inconvenient is not the way to ensure a serene reign.  The open murder of Alistair isn't just wrong, it's foolish.  If she wanted him disposed of, she should have at least had the sense to quietly contact the Crows.