54 réponses à ce sujet

[ReiSilver]

Mr.House wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Corypheus

Dumat. You promised us the power of the gods! But city was black. Tainted. It was supposed to be Golden!!!

He never once mentions the maker. According to the Chant of Light and the Chantry, the old Tevinters went there trying to usurp the power of the Maker. He never once mentions him, and seems to have gone there at the behest of Dumat.

Yup, this is something that proves the Chantry is not tellingt he full truth, also this happen two thousand years ago and the attacks happen underground before it even hit the surface, another Chantry lie.

I really apreciated that Cory didn't mention the Maker, gives us new information while still adding layers of mystery and the unknown. And it makes sense since the Tevinters didn't worship The Maker that their 'invasion' of the Fade didn't have anything to do with challenging 'god'.
Do we know when The Maker belief started to crop up? Was it before Andraste?I was under the impression the belief was around before her, but looking at the wiki I don't think it's actually been mentioned.

I also had another random thought now we know that darkspawn can live forever without food etc. Who else do we know that were immortal? The elves. They (supposedly) lost their immortallity around the same time their gods dissapeared, so what if that immortality was given to them by their pantheon, when Fen Harel betrayed them the immortality was lost but Fen Harel would know how to do it too, what if he used a twisted version of that to make the darkspwan taint? Maybe that gave Fen Harel the ability to get at the Old Gods/Forgotten Ones who were becoming too close to getting free through the Tevinters and so the taint corrupted them and created blights which the mortals would fight against and target the arch demons with their old god souls, trapping them in that cycle of death and rebirth.

Wild, wild speculation I know but I love guessing about this stuff and making/hearing theories

[TOBY FLENDERSON]

Think old gods are dragons, and forgotten one demons. I think the creator is The dread wolf and he sealed the old gods in the earth (deep roads) and demons in the fade (black city).

[dklancer02]

Its probably not so much that the Chantry's not telling the truth so much as they don't know any better than the rest of us.

[brain_damage]

A question about Corypheus - he's been manipulating the Grey Wardens - including Lareka or whatever her name is for a long time. The notes that you find about him indicate that he was found by the Grey Wardens - they communicated with him, he shared knowledge with them and later they trapped him. So he must be aware of the situation at hand. Yet, when you free him, he babbles on and on and gives a dramatic speech about the Golden City - what was that about? Didn't he know that Dumat was dead and he was trapped in a prison underground?

[Drz]

He was talking to people via the Fade when he was asleep, but he didn't have the concept of time, so he might have believed to be asleep for 5 minutes, not 2 thousand years.

[WhiteKnyght]

Sounds like this was just the old gods' plot to free themselves from their prisons. And the legions of monstrous minions are always a bonus.

They are locked in underground prisons and in a state of sleep. They likely knew of the taint, where it was, and what it could do.

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 28 juillet 2011 - 09:37 .

[Sepewrath]

ReiSilver wrote...
Do we know when The Maker belief started to crop up? Was it before Andraste?I was under the impression the belief was around before her, but looking at the wiki I don't think it's actually been mentioned.

The story of The Maker didn't exist until after the first Blight when Andraste and Maferath attacked the Imperium. So he wouldn't know anything about that story.

brain_damage wrote...

A question about Corypheus - he's
been manipulating the Grey Wardens - including Lareka or whatever her
name is for a long time. The notes that you find about him indicate that
he was found by the Grey Wardens - they communicated with him, he
shared knowledge with them and later they trapped him. So he must be
aware of the situation at hand. Yet, when you free him, he babbles on
and on and gives a dramatic speech about the Golden City - what was that
about? Didn't he know that Dumat was dead and he was trapped in a
prison underground?

Well what he said about the Golden City was to poke holes in what the Chantry said and he simply didn't know that Tevinter had fallen, something that didn't happen until well after the Blight was the over.

[WhiteKnyght]

Sepewrath wrote...

Well what he said about the Golden City was to poke holes in what the Chantry said and he simply didn't know that Tevinter had fallen, something that didn't happen until well after the Blight was the over.

Well technically Tevinter is still around. They just lost a lot of power and territory. And they've recovered a lot of it but are apparently deadlocked in a war with the Qunari.

[Sepewrath]

Yeah I know Tevinter still exist, but I wouldn't even classify it as a shell of its former glory. They had an empire, I would consider that fallen.

[elearon1]

Kwanzaabot wrote...

Also, it was kind of a pain that I couldn't tell Varric about his Legion of the Dead ancestor after the DLC. I assume he reacts DURING the DLC, but if you don't bring him, you seem to just miss out altogether. Lame.

You really should bring Varric through on another playthrough - he has a lot to say and some really good lines.  That stated, obviously you Did tell him about it at some point, since he is relating this to the Seeker ... either that, or it never happened and he just added it for flair. (I'm kind of leaning in the direction of the latter)

[Sons of Horus]

Rifneno wrote...

joelc16 wrote...

Did any of you guys complete the Grew Warden armor? Did you get the helmet?

I think the more interesting thing is that it is Grey Warden armor.  It's called "of the Silent One."  Dumat, whose temples were in the prison, was the Tevinter god of silence.  It follows then that this armor would be one of Dumat's clergy.  Yet it's clearly the same design the Wardens use.  Which leaves with an odd question.  Could it be that the Wardens were originally an off-shoot of Dumat's followers?!

More than likey, Grey Wardens were part of the imperial army. They only broke off at Weisshaupt fortress in the Anderfels, what I would like to know is how they managed to figure our the Ritual to create greywardens. Weisshaupt  may have been at the time some kind of blood magic research facility.

[Rifneno]

elearon1 wrote...

Kwanzaabot wrote...

Also, it was kind of a pain that I couldn't tell Varric about his Legion of the Dead ancestor after the DLC. I assume he reacts DURING the DLC, but if you don't bring him, you seem to just miss out altogether. Lame.

You really should bring Varric through on another playthrough - he has a lot to say and some really good lines.  That stated, obviously you Did tell him about it at some point, since he is relating this to the Seeker ... either that, or it never happened and he just added it for flair. (I'm kind of leaning in the direction of the latter)

They're not going to go with the Varric lied route.  They know it's the one thing that would make a million DA fans hit them with signs that say "Don't."

[elearon1]

::coughcough wastedjoke cough:: He did tell the Seeker that he was going to exaggerate for dramatic effect, didn't he?

[Rifneno]

elearon1 wrote...

::coughcough wastedjoke cough:: He did tell the Seeker that he was going to exaggerate for dramatic effect, didn't he?

Ditto with the "Don't" sign reference.    I think the exaggeration thing is only so Hawke can talk to dead people, right?  Or does he still say it if Leandra is alive?

[PsychoBlonde]

Rifneno wrote...

joelc16 wrote...

Did any of you guys complete the Grew Warden armor? Did you get the helmet?

I think the more interesting thing is that it is Grey Warden armor.  It's called "of the Silent One."  Dumat, whose temples were in the prison, was the Tevinter god of silence.  It follows then that this armor would be one of Dumat's clergy.  Yet it's clearly the same design the Wardens use.  Which leaves with an odd question.  Could it be that the Wardens were originally an off-shoot of Dumat's followers?!

That would explain where they came from originally and why they had some of Dumat's blood so they could defeat him.  (The wardens need some of the archdemon's blood to become wardens, after all.)

Looking forward to Asunder/more DLC/more game.  The darkspawn have definitely gone from "mindless horde of baddies to slaughter" to an actually interesting phenomenon.

[DRTJR]

the maker could be Fen'Herel, who sent Cory those images to eliminate the compition

[Hsien]

The Maker would make an awesome final boss of the Dragon Age series.

[Nerdage]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

That would explain where they came from originally and why they had some of Dumat's blood so they could defeat him.  (The wardens need some of the archdemon's blood to become wardens, after all.)

Looking forward to Asunder/more DLC/more game.  The darkspawn have definitely gone from "mindless horde of baddies to slaughter" to an actually interesting phenomenon.

Hasn't it already been established (or "confimed" may be a better word) that you don't need archdemon blood specifically? Archdemon blood is prefereable because it's more concentrated but any darkspawn blood can be magically altered to do the job. The wiki says you need all three for the ritual (archdemon blood, 'normal' darkspawn blood and magic), but it also says you don't... and reference is a link to David Gaider saying you don't, and between the two I'm inclined to believe him.

I'm just being pedantic though, a link between the wardens and Dumat's followers sounds interesting, even likely. Especially considering how few records there are from that time, and how other things we already "knew" are turning out to be wrong, or at least incomplete.

Honestly, when they said there would be interesting lore in Legacy they really weren't kidding, it has more than the whole rest of the game.

Modifié par nerdage, 29 juillet 2011 - 03:26 .

[THEZBEAST]

Hsien wrote...

The Maker would make an awesome final boss of the Dragon Age series.

It would make sense because the mages are rebelling. I think anyways.

[Ausstig]

Hsien wrote...

The Maker would make an awesome final boss of the Dragon Age series.

This would suck beyond everything else. 

Also I have been thinking about the open narration of DA:O and I don't see any contadictions  to what cory said.

quote "The mages sought to usurp heaven" Well they did seek the power of the "gods themselves"

It is also possible that they witnessed its destruction, as he says "It's been black ever since" and "It was supposed to be golden" 

"but they were caste out cursed by they own corruption" also true, though they never said WHO caste them out. 

So don't jump to conclusions wait for events to reveal themselves.  

[zthix]

stewie1974 wrote...

Hmmmmm....

It's possible the maker is not one god, but the elven pantheon of 9 gods , just the chantry messed it up.
It's possible what the elves call the -forgotten ones- are the "old gods"
It's possible that Fen'Harel: The Dread Wolf tricked them...
Lord of Tricksters and bringer of nightmares. His supposed betrayal of the gods of both good and evil by sealing them away in their respective realms

So dumat one of the tricked gods, called to the trevinter mages through the fade .... teaching them magic and such.... with promises of the golden city or what not.

But when the mages reached the city, it was the black city.... as fen had already sealed the elven gods /the maker away...

The Golden City exists or existed in the fade....as the black city is always visiable from within it..
It could be the maker is -one- god and the dalish simply worship different aspects of him as different individuals...

I don't know, but you can't have two religions with creator gods responsible for this world. Likely same gods, different telling....

With religion in Dragon Age, its always seems to me there are two things going on. "The Ancient Religion" which probably details actual events of the world (more or less) and then the more abstract intangible religion of the Chantry.

Corypheus seems to support this and to understand this i think we need to seperate two.

The Gods (a powerful/old race, worshipped by the elves, rather than the intangable spirit idea of The Maker) go to war with the Forgotten  Ones (either other Gods or a similar, equally powerful race). The War is eventually ended by Fen'harel who trapped both sides away. The Gods from then on seem to be quite absent, but the Fogotten Ones do seem to analogous or even interchangable with the Old Gods/Blight Dragons who are trapped away beneath the earth.

The Black City exists, there is no evidence the Golden City ever did, Corpheus again confirms Dumat as the one that used the promise of The Golden City to tempt the magisters in. The Chantry later incorporates this story into thier Relgion as with many others (missing God for example),  to further thier control and expand thier influence in much the same way real world religions have done so over history.

I't seems to me the Old Gods/Forgotten ones needed the Darkspawn as an army they could telepathically control to help them break free and to that end manipulated the Tevinter Magister's into the Black City where they could be changed into Darkspawn and the Blight could begin.

Fen'Harel is the big Wild Card though. Clearly it didnt want the war of the Gods to continue and sides with the mortal races, and the legend sugests is the only God left actually in the world. So as a side point, we're looking for an increaibly old magical being that acivly works through manipulation against both the Chantry and the Blight, which i think can only be Flemeth.

Modifié par zthix, 29 juillet 2011 - 10:43 .

[harazal]

The chantry knew where the prison was, even if it was supposed to be a secret. They didnt seem surprised by the grey wardens there, and they're very interested in Hawke. They know he knows something he shouldn't. I think its clear the chantry is covering up something horrific.

[BigEvil]

harazal wrote...

The chantry knew where the prison was, even if it was supposed to be a secret. They didnt seem surprised by the grey wardens there, and they're very interested in Hawke. They know he knows something he shouldn't. I think its clear the chantry is covering up something horrific.

It seems likely that they're simply trying to cover up any information which might show their religion's history as not being accurate. As for the prison being a secret, it seemed well known that there was a Grey Warden base there, just not that it was a prison. There were codexes which mentioned the Wardens putting about rumours that the area was full of dangers to keep people away, and that they had built the fortress to guard the mountain pass.

[whykikyouwhy]

Someone several posts ago mentioned that it's possible the Chantry didn't know or recognize that the creators may have been the elven pantheon, or in the very least, a group of entities versus one. (Hopefully I paraprased correctly.) I'm wondering if the Chantry was always aware but has manipulated the story to change the greater faith of Thedas from polytheistic to monotheistic. Having one god vs several allows for greater control of the "truth" and of the people. The Chantry then disavows any other faith as being against the Maker.

This is something I had discussed with a friend of mine - that part of what makes a god a god is the aspect of worship. Reverence,fear, etc all boost the power of an entity to a god-level, actual abilities and magics aside. So if the creators are either literally or figuratively imprisoned or locked away, their power diminishes. People no longer have the same direct link to them. Then those gods become weak, allowing for a Chantry-crafted god (the Maker) to ascend to a role of significance and influence. Thus allowing the Chantry to become a global power.

Just some speculation, mind you. Lots of gaps exist.