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[DieHigh2012]

Sohaim wrote...

Man i realy loved how Origins created the whole myth and how the codex pages and some NPC Slightly gives hints about what really may have happened, and DA2 took all that and just trew it away, but the DLC make it up for the main campaing, i too think there was no Golden City, and the whole thing about the Maker being there was just something made up by Dumat and the chantry just used the tale to force opression on the mages, now what i really want to see is how all this connect with the Elven Gods and Forgoten Ones, man it was AWESOME to see one of the ACTUAL Magister that invaded the Fade,i wonder where flemeths connect with the story, she obviously is a part of all this, i am really loving the direction this DLC took us ;]

Well don't forget the thousand or so years when mages ruled all of thedas, and the countless atrocities they comited like forceing any non-magic user into slave status. (e.g. the destruction of Arlathen, rampent blood magic that slaves were the fuel for, I can go on if need be...)

[Sons of Horus]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Someone several posts ago mentioned that it's possible the Chantry didn't know or recognize that the creators may have been the elven pantheon, or in the very least, a group of entities versus one. (Hopefully I paraprased correctly.) I'm wondering if the Chantry was always aware but has manipulated the story to change the greater faith of Thedas from polytheistic to monotheistic. Having one god vs several allows for greater control of the "truth" and of the people. The Chantry then disavows any other faith as being against the Maker.

Just some speculation, mind you. Lots of gaps exist.

Its interesting that Sebastian take the opposite viewpoint when talking with Merrill about this. Brother Genitivi also sought knowledge about the World and other cultures such as the dalish and the Qun.
Perhaps view's like "The Chantry then disavows any other faith" is only political tided to one fraction or political reasons. If this is the case the chantry may have been more ideologically fractured before the mage/templar war.

[whykikyouwhy]

Sons of Horus wrote...

Its interesting that Sebastian take the opposite viewpoint when talking with Merrill about this. Brother Genitivi also sought knowledge about the World and other cultures such as the dalish and the Qun.
Perhaps view's like "The Chantry then disavows any other faith" is only political tided to one fraction or political reasons. If this is the case the chantry may have been more ideologically fractured before the mage/templar war.

The Chantry always struck me as a sort of "with us or against us" organization in terms of faith - touting one way, one religion, etc and not being all too tolerant when it came to the ways of others. Not to say that all members of the Chantry are this way. I found this bit in the wiki:

"The view of the Chantry on non-humans is that they need saving -- they have turned even further from the Maker's grace than humanity has. Elves were, and in some cases still are, pagan and dwarves do not worship any gods at all. The Chantry's goal is to spread the Chant of Light to all four corners of the world, that includes non-humans as well. Once all peoples have accepted the Chant and practice its teachings, supposedly the Maker will return to the world and return it to its previous Edenic state."

Sebastian and Genitivi are much more embracing in their views of Thedas as a whole, probably due to their individual upbringings and stations in life. Also, I think they are meant to be characters that are not so rigid in their viewpoints in order to be a nice middleground between the non-faithful (or non-declared or non-practicing) and those clearly following the Maker.

In terms of the religion of the Maker/Andraste, I could easily see the Chantry manipulating facts and history to serve its own goals. Fear and devotion can sway people. Saying this though, is not meant to imply that I believe the Chantry to be a wholly nefarious entity. There's some good to be found, but political goals exist amidst the core tenants of altruism, and those may be what has caused a blurring or rewriting of the existence of gods.

Modifié par whykikyouwhy, 30 juillet 2011 - 05:58 .

[Darth Revan Mester]

zthix wrote...

stewie1974 wrote...

Hmmmmm....

It's possible the maker is not one god, but the elven pantheon of 9 gods , just the chantry messed it up.
It's possible what the elves call the -forgotten ones- are the "old gods"
It's possible that Fen'Harel: The Dread Wolf tricked them...
Lord of Tricksters and bringer of nightmares. His supposed betrayal of the gods of both good and evil by sealing them away in their respective realms

So dumat one of the tricked gods, called to the trevinter mages through the fade .... teaching them magic and such.... with promises of the golden city or what not.

But when the mages reached the city, it was the black city.... as fen had already sealed the elven gods /the maker away...

The Golden City exists or existed in the fade....as the black city is always visiable from within it..
It could be the maker is -one- god and the dalish simply worship different aspects of him as different individuals...

I don't know, but you can't have two religions with creator gods responsible for this world. Likely same gods, different telling....

With religion in Dragon Age, its always seems to me there are two things going on. "The Ancient Religion" which probably details actual events of the world (more or less) and then the more abstract intangible religion of the Chantry.

Corypheus seems to support this and to understand this i think we need to seperate two.

The Gods (a powerful/old race, worshipped by the elves, rather than the intangable spirit idea of The Maker) go to war with the Forgotten  Ones (either other Gods or a similar, equally powerful race). The War is eventually ended by Fen'harel who trapped both sides away. The Gods from then on seem to be quite absent, but the Fogotten Ones do seem to analogous or even interchangable with the Old Gods/Blight Dragons who are trapped away beneath the earth.

The Black City exists, there is no evidence the Golden City ever did, Corpheus again confirms Dumat as the one that used the promise of The Golden City to tempt the magisters in. The Chantry later incorporates this story into thier Relgion as with many others (missing God for example),  to further thier control and expand thier influence in much the same way real world religions have done so over history.

I't seems to me the Old Gods/Forgotten ones needed the Darkspawn as an army they could telepathically control to help them break free and to that end manipulated the Tevinter Magister's into the Black City where they could be changed into Darkspawn and the Blight could begin.

Fen'Harel is the big Wild Card though. Clearly it didnt want the war of the Gods to continue and sides with the mortal races, and the legend sugests is the only God left actually in the world. So as a side point, we're looking for an increaibly old magical being that acivly works through manipulation against both the Chantry and the Blight, which i think can only be Flemeth.

It is possible that Fen'Harel, the Maker, Andraste and Flemeth are one and the same person/thing. Fen'Harel is the only god, so it can be the chantry's Maker. Fen'Harel stoped the War of the Gods. Dumat and the rest wanted to escape so they tricked the magisters etc.
Andraste wanted to destory the Imperium because of the "command"" of the Maker. If Fen'harel is the Maker than it is understandable 'cause Fen'harel did not want the Old Gods to be free. So let's say that Andreste is Fen'Harel, what if Andreste made up a religion so that she could defeat the Imperium preventing any attempt to free the Old Gods or the other gods and by making up this religion with ONE god no one will ever knonw about the other gods.  Flemeth cheated death more than once. So what if after her death she came back the same way as Flemeth did in DA2? Flemeth is againts the Blight. She helped the Warden so the Warden could end the Blight preventing once again the return of the gods. She also helped Hawke so she could return if she has to. And after Legacy it is possible that she had information about Malcolm and that magister darkspawn etc. so Flemeth might have knew that Hawke will be in the hearth of great event and Hawke will be useful later. Or may be not and may be Flemeth is an escaped god (not an archdemon kinda god. According to Merril there is/was two fraction of gods: the Forgotten Ones/Old Gods and the Creators and the outsider Fen'Harel). Well there is a lot of maybe and possible. One thing is sure: just like Mass Effect, Dragon Age will be a trilogy as well so sooner or later everything will be revealed.

[LobselVith8]

Sons of Horus wrote...

Its interesting that Sebastian take the opposite viewpoint when talking with Merrill about this. Brother Genitivi also sought knowledge about the World and other cultures such as the dalish and the Qun.
Perhaps view's like "The Chantry then disavows any other faith" is only political tided to one fraction or political reasons. If this is the case the chantry may have been more ideologically fractured before the mage/templar war.

Sebastian (if taken to the Dalish clan at Sundermount) thinks there are a lot of souls waiting to experience "the Light" of the Chant. It can be inferred that he thinks they should convert. Also, Brother Genitivi writes that he travels to spread word about the Chant of Light, and he addressed that he thinks humans are the masters of Thedas in his writing about the New Exalted Marches, which is an "interesting" statement in a universe where humans co-exist with elves and dwarves.