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[TheTWF]

To quote Corypheus:

"The light. We sought the golden light. You (Dumat) offered the power of the gods themselves."

"But it was... black... corrupt."

"The city! It was supposed to be golden!"

Hot damn. Is he implying that the Golden City was already the Black City when they arrived?

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I haven't played the DLC but looking over his quotes on his Dragon Age wiki page he also says "Darkness ever since. How long?" I don't know the tone of voice he used so it's impossible for me to gauge his intention but that sounds like it could mean either "The city has been dark ever since I was there. How long has it been?" or "How long had the city been dark?"

[Daerog]

It could have turned Black *right* when they arrived. The ritual they did may have caused the corruption when tearing through the Veil to enter physically into the Fade, so when they finally stepped through, it was all Black.

[Ginkeh]

I have a feeling this will be one of the questions asked in DA3 if the game revolves around the mage/templar conflict.

If the Chant was wrong about this, what else was it wrong about? Maybe we`ll see more and more people doubting the Chantry in Thedas in the future, evolving the mage/templar conflict into a full scale religious revolution of some sorts.

On the other hand, I suspect Daerog is right in what he says.

[wetnasty]

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

It could have turned Black *right* when they arrived. The ritual they did may have caused the corruption when tearing through the Veil to enter physically into the Fade, so when they finally stepped through, it was all Black.

That's what I thought as well. It would take a whole lot of bad (blood) magic to even arrive at the Golden City in the first place, and I wouldn't be surprised if that ended up messing things up in the fade.

[Ausstig]

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

It could have turned Black *right* when they arrived. The ritual they did may have caused the corruption when tearing through the Veil to enter physically into the Fade, so when they finally stepped through, it was all Black.

I agree with this, as the idea that mages are the reason for darkspawn was right why not the corrupting the city?

besides they were/are Mages of Tiventer, they probably used blood mage or something even more nasty, so who knows also the 'conductor' was not that coherent so who knows what he was really saying. 

[phleg921]

I'd be very interested for a transcript of all his battle dialogue if it was at all possible.

This DLC in relation to the overall story of the series is massive. I hope Bioware continue it on in DA3/future DLC.

[FaeQueenCory]

When I got it, that pause before "ever since" made it seem as if he was saying that it was blackened after he and the other magisters got there. Basically it seemed like they got to the golden doors (it had to have been golden at first, otherwise there would have been no pining over it) and upon opening it everything turned black.

[Bazedragon]

I blame Anders. He wants the attention.

But then. The question to me is... was he REALLY a magister? 

Modifié par Bazedragon, 28 juillet 2011 - 01:53 .

[CrimsonZephyr]

I think it was always black. How many things will the game blame on mages? Throw them a bone, just once.

[Nauks]

I'm inclined to believe it was always Black.

The Tevinter Magisters were essentially tricked into going there in the first place (by being promised the golden light or w/e).
Since the old gods were trapped in the earth, their play was to teach the Tevinters blood magic through the fade, semingly to eventually release them.
Which they did, technically though creating darkspawn, how optimal this solution was is up for debate

[WhiteKnyght]

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

It could have turned Black *right* when they arrived. The ritual they did may have caused the corruption when tearing through the Veil to enter physically into the Fade, so when they finally stepped through, it was all Black.

Thats not what the Chant says. The very first line of Origins says "Marvel at perfection, for it is fleeting." But they never even saw perfection.

Also doesn't it seem unrealistic that a place that is supposed to be the domain of an almighty being could be destroyed and hopelessly tainted by a mere mortal stepping in just because he isn't nice?

[Cutlass Jack]

I'm pretty sure Sandal did it.

[Sepewrath]

Yeah I believe the city was already black to begin with, them arriving there made no difference. Really it sounds like they had never even seen the city, meaning they had never even been in the Fade, Dumat or whoever was whispering in their ear, sold them on this whole image of a golden city, something they've never seen before.

[Rifneno]

Ausstig wrote...

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

It could have turned Black *right* when they arrived. The ritual they did may have caused the corruption when tearing through the Veil to enter physically into the Fade, so when they finally stepped through, it was all Black.

I agree with this, as the idea that mages are the reason for darkspawn was right why not the corrupting the city?

besides they were/are Mages of Tiventer, they probably used blood mage or something even more nasty, so who knows also the 'conductor' was not that coherent so who knows what he was really saying. 

First of all, blaming mages as a whole for the darkspawn is like blaming medical researchers for street drugs.  Bayer, who invented asprin, created another drug for pain relief.  There were... unforeseen consequences.  They called it "heroin."  The mages of Tevinter are no more evil than the templars of Andraste.  Which is to say, most of them are.  People are people, power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.

But I digress, what I want to say is this: because there's an extremely important part of the story that the Chantry left out.  The magisters went to the golden city at the behest of their god, Dumat.  This was not solely caused by the hubris of man.  A powerful deity was pulling the strings.  The magisters were bastards, no doubt, and this does not exonerate them of responsibility.  But it does add a whole new spin.

Bazedragon wrote...

I blame Anders. He wants the attention.

But then. The question to me is... was he REALLY a magister? 

Yes.  You'd know if you brought Anders along.    When you loot Coryntheus' body, Anders notes the amulet he had bears the design of a small sect of Dumat worshipers which only existed over a millennium ago in Tevinter.  Anders didn't believe Corypheus was a magister from talking to him, but that amulet instantly convinced him.

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

I think it was always black. How many things will the game blame on mages? Throw them a bone, just once.

Indeed.  I anxiously await the next DLC where Hawke travels briefly to a future where goodness itself has been sacrificed by blood mages.  ...  Yes, I'm a little pissy about this reveal because it stinks of the DA team trying to justify the Chantry's own crimes so they can have this moral ambiguity they want so bad.

[Sepewrath]

Well I cant say you can blame the magisters at all, yeah the slavery and stuff like that on Earth, yeah their real scumbags for that. But there was no Maker when they went to the city, they worshiped these gods, if they gods invited them to the city to share in their power, they weren't technically doing anything wrong.

[WhiteKnyght]

Sepewrath wrote...

Well I cant say you can blame the magisters at all, yeah the slavery and stuff like that on Earth, yeah their real scumbags for that. But there was no Maker when they went to the city, they worshiped these gods, if they gods invited them to the city to share in their power, they weren't technically doing anything wrong.

Aside from the massive blood ritual they used.

According to a codex entry the alleged ritual the magisters used to enter the Fade and go into the city took the lives of thousands of slaves and almost all of the lyrium in Tevinter.

But I'd like to see Cassandra's reaction after Varric tells her about that stuff.

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 28 juillet 2011 - 11:31 .

[Sepewrath]

Accounts written by the Chantry, the one that wants to sell Tevinter as pure evil blood mages. What better way to do that than say that they sacrificed a whole towns worth of people to go to fuel up their Fade bus.

[stewie1974]

Is it any wonder that Andrestae created a set of rules and lore that oppressed mages when attacking a weakened trevinter empire?

Andrestae :*finger in her ear * hold on, hold on , the maker is telling me something now, Oh he says mages are responsible for everything evil and..... oh wait.... the old gods are evil.....and... Oh yes... magic exists to serve man not to rule him.... got it? did you write it down?, good"

Does the chantry have any  -pre- andrestae teachings... or was this woman the sole source of infomation. I believe most if not all humans were worshiping the old gods prior to the maker correct?

Modifié par stewie1974, 28 juillet 2011 - 11:55 .

[phaonica]

Did mages not visit the Fade before their attempt to travel to the Golden City? You would think that if they did they would have been able to *see* that the city was or was not Golden.

[Torax]

phaonica wrote...

Did mages not visit the Fade before their attempt to travel to the Golden City? You would think that if they did they would have been able to *see* that the city was or was not Golden.

All you'd ever see is a far off place either way. Keep in mind to what Dumat was asking them to do is something we have never seen in game. Everytime we've entered the fade it's been while our bodies are still in Thedas some where. Even with the First was betrayed by the Mother to send the Warden Commander into the fade the bodies were still there outside the fade. The Magisters had to devise a way to enter the Fade completely, including their bodies. An undertaking that apparently needed immense power to complete. Also in doing that is how their bodies were able to be tainted in the first place. The full physical entering into the fade also implied by the fact that if their bodies were back on Thedas then how could they be turned into Darkspawn by anything they did within the fade?

[tmp7704]

stewie1974 wrote...

Does the chantry have any  -pre- andrestae teachings... or was this woman the sole source of infomation. I believe most if not all humans were worshiping the old gods prior to the maker correct?

The cult of the Maker pre-dates the worship of the Old Gods, so in theory there may be some documents from these older times. But given they'd need to be about couple thousand years old (give or take few hundreds) they are probably as easy to find as the Dead Sea Scrolls.

[phaonica]

Torax wrote...
All you'd ever see is a far off place either way. Keep in mind to what Dumat was asking them to do is something we have never seen in game. Everytime we've entered the fade it's been while our bodies are still in Thedas some where. Even with the First was betrayed by the Mother to send the Warden Commander into the fade the bodies were still there outside the fade. The Magisters had to devise a way to enter the Fade completely, including their bodies.

So you're saying that the Magisters also had never completely entered the Fade before, which means that when they partially entered the Fade (as we did) they would have seen exactly what we could see--a black city, not a golden one.

[Rifneno]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Aside from the massive blood ritual they used.

According to a codex entry the alleged ritual the magisters used to enter the Fade and go into the city took the lives of thousands of slaves and almost all of the lyrium in Tevinter.

There was no law against blood magic. In fact there's still debate on the forums about whether blood magic is inherently evil. Slavery is wrong, certainly. But how long ago was slavery outlawed in the real world? Only a few hundred years in most cases, which considering the age of civilization is VERY recent. And it still exists in some places. A great deal of the cocoa (read: chocolate) we use today is farmed on the West Africa's Ivory Coast. By child slave labor. Think about that the next time you bite into a Nestle bar. So yeah, this isn't a problem that can be rightly blamed on Tevinter, mages, or even ass-backwards ancient societies. It's much simplier than that. People suck.

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I haven't played the DLC but looking over his quotes on his Dragon Age wiki page he also says "Darkness ever since. How long?" I don't know the tone of voice he used so it's impossible for me to gauge his intention but that sounds like it could mean either "The city has been dark ever since I was there. How long has it been?" or "How long had the city been dark?"

It seemed to me that his "darkness ever since" meant his imprisonment. His next line, "How long?" was angry.

[Macropodmum]

Rifneno wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

I think it was always black. How many things will the game blame on mages? Throw them a bone, just once.

Indeed.  I anxiously await the next DLC where Hawke travels briefly to a future where goodness itself has been sacrificed by blood mages.  ...  Yes, I'm a little pissy about this reveal because it stinks of the DA team trying to justify the Chantry's own crimes so they can have this moral ambiguity they want so bad.

I think that it possibly may have turned black on entry, not because they were mages or using blood magic but because they were human.... of course this would be dependent on someone having witnessed a golden city to start with and possibly the clue might be in what the magisters were promised i.e were they promised "A " golden city which would indicate to me that they had never laid eyes on one or "the" golden city which would indicate that they indeed knew of its existence...