149 réponses à ce sujet

[craneo99]

I believe it was turned black during a battle between Dumat and the other Old Gods(Forgotten Gods) and the Creator Gods. It is black now due to a curse placed upon it by the creator gods. In turn cursing their city they expelled the Forgotten to the depths of Thedas and they themselves were cast into the beyond and sealed until the Chant of Light is completed as indicated by the Chantry will the creators be able to pass back to the fade and clean up the mess.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Rifneno wrote...

But I digress, what I want to say is this: because there's an extremely important part of the story that the Chantry left out.  The magisters went to the golden city at the behest of their god, Dumat.  This was not solely caused by the hubris of man.  A powerful deity was pulling the strings.  The magisters were bastards, no doubt, and this does not exonerate them of responsibility.  But it does add a whole new spin.
.

I don't know. I thought it was commonly suspected that Dumat was pulling the strings. I can't remember where offhand but I thought there was a codex entry where a Chantry source beleived that the Old Gods had goaded the Magisters into breaching the city.

[In Exile]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I haven't played the DLC but looking over his quotes on his Dragon Age wiki page he also says "Darkness ever since. How long?" I don't know the tone of voice he used so it's impossible for me to gauge his intention but that sounds like it could mean either "The city has been dark ever since I was there. How long has it been?" or "How long had the city been dark?"

I thought that meant that he was consumed in darkness ever since he went to the 'Golden' City, not that it was dark ever since, i.e. he was lamenting his suffering as a darkspawn. 

[Nethalf]

I think it's not so important dialog as it seems. Yeah, Corypheus said something unusual about Golden city but look at the reaction of Larius/Janeka. They are not surprised or shocked. And they're talking about Golden City as if Corypheus' words are abcolutely usual and not contrary to Chant of Light.

So I think it's just a phrase.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Nethalf wrote...

I think it's not so important dialog as it seems.

I think otherwise. Looking at what the OP stated (I haven't played the DLC yet), it is the first confirmation we've had that there is probably some truth to the origins of the darkspawn taint, as stated by the Chant of Light. We now know the following to be true:
1. The Old Gods (or something pretending to be them) did talk to the magisters, and promised great power
2. The magisters did reach the Black City (presuming Corpyheus is talking about it)
3. The darkspawn corruption/taint did originate there

I think we do not know what caused the taint, though. For #1 and #3, I do not know if we really know the true reasons.

Yeah, Corypheus said something unusual about Golden city but look at the reaction of Larius/Janeka.

But what is so unusual about what he said? It just seems like an affirmation of what the Chant of Light says. And if I have my timelines correct, Corpheus came before the Chant of Light, and is probably unaware about any of it, so probably lending solidity to the theory.

They are not surprised or shocked. And they're talking about Golden City as if Corypheus' words are abcolutely usual and not contrary to Chant of Light.

So I think it's just a phrase.

True, that. Nevertheless, the first real confirmation we've had from the horse's mouth itself, so to speak?

[Nethalf]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...
I think otherwise.

I mean this dialogue is self-contradictory (uhm, I'm sorry if my English is ridiculous). At first, this magister says that Golden City was already blackened but further he says "Darkness ever since". And as you can see, the discussion is around this contradiction. My point: the contradiction exists just because Corypheus' speech... uhm... is not considered, not well-thought-out.

MichaelFinnegan wrote...And if I have my timelines correct, Corpheus came before the Chant of Light, and is probably unaware about any of it, so probably lending solidity to the theory.

Yep. Corypheus was catched by Wardens between 1004 and 1014 T.E., Andraste's rebellion began in 1020 T.E.

But:

MichaelFinnegan wrote...
But what is so unusual about what he said? It just seems like an affirmation of what the Chant of Light says. 

Nope. Corypheus says that Golden City was already corrupt when he'd come however Chantry says that Golden City was corrupted by magisters. And this is the reason to doubt in rightness of the Chant.

Modifié par Nethalf, 29 juillet 2011 - 05:33 .

[MichaelFinnegan]

Nethalf wrote...

I mean this dialogue is self-contradictory (uhm, I'm sorry if my English is ridiculous). At first, this magister says that Golden City was already blackened but further he says "Darkness ever since". And as you can see, the discussion is around this contradiction. My point: the contradiction exists just because Corypheus' speech... uhm... is not considered, not well-thought-out.

I'm sorry I misinterpreted what you wrote. And, yes, the "blackness" and "darkness" mean different things, I think. Blackness may be a reference to condition of the City itself, and "darkness" to Corypheus' imprisonment "ever since."

Yep. Corypheus was catched by Wardens between 1004 and 1014 T.E., Andraste's rebellion began in 1020 T.E.

I actually haven't played Legacy, so I didn't know that Corypheus was caught by the Wardens. Don't mind me though - I don't mind spoilers at this point. I even read up some things on the Wiki.

Nope. Corypheus says that Golden City was already corrupt when he'd come however Chantry says that Golden City was corrupted by magisters. And this is the reason to doubt in rightness of the Chant.

Yes, that I find a debatable point. We can assume that when the magisters entered the City, hoping for "light" and "power" they found "darkness" and "corruption" instead. This suggests an element of surprise. But, then again, it could also mean that the very act of entering the City itself might have rendered it "black" and "corrupt."

So I don't know what to believe. Till proven otherwise though, the Chant may still be right. I hope there had been more dialogue - but looking at how DA might still have a long lineup of games, I don't think we'll get that yet.

[esper]

I have been thinking about it. The dwarves version of how the darkspawn coming from the depth of the deep roads to be is more logical than the chantry's golden city corrupted to black city, but I don't think Corypheus was lying either.
The only common thing I can see between the Deep roads and the Fade is the lyrium. Lyrium exits both places and I am inclined to believe that there exits some kind of 'tainted' lyrium that twists people to darkspawn. We don't know what the black city or more importantly what it is made of and what exits inside the Black City. Neither do we know what exits at the deepest depths of the Deep Roads.

[MichaelFinnegan]

esper wrote...

I have been thinking about it. The dwarves version of how the darkspawn coming from the depth of the deep roads to be is more logical than the chantry's golden city corrupted to black city, but I don't think Corypheus was lying either.

Actually, for all we know both versions may be correct.

The questions I have are:
1.How did the magisters enter the Golden City/Black City?
2. And why were the darkspawn first noticed underground? If they appeared there first and were banished out of the Black City, then they must have teleported there somehow.

The only common thing I can see between the Deep roads and the Fade is the lyrium. Lyrium exits both places and I am inclined to believe that there exits some kind of 'tainted' lyrium that twists people to darkspawn. We don't know what the black city or more importantly what it is made of and what exits inside the Black City. Neither do we know what exits at the deepest depths of the Deep Roads.

Lyrium is a grand mystery to me. Somehow I always felt that lyrium had a greater role to play in the grand scheme of things than even blood magic. Don't ask me why. It's just a hunch.

I have a theory about the Black City though - just a correlation of apparently random things. I've started a new post on it.

[Sepewrath]

Well my theory on the Darkspawn is they existed before the Magister's went into the Fade. And since they seem to like to hang out underground, that's probably where their from. That Thaig that seems to predate Dwarf history and for some reason has been left untouched by Darkspawn. I get the feeling that has more to do with them than some daytrip into the Fade.

And I don't think Arlathan is the Black City, I think simply put with the Eluvians and the Magisters sinking the city that place has played with some dangerous mojo. Sinking that place had to tear a hole in the Fade the size of Texas.

[Torax]

@ Filament,
The Magisters didn't really learn the art of being "Dreamers" from the Elves. Instead they learned of being Dreamers naturally and with likely aid from the Old Gods. As Dreamers they were able to hold Elven Mages as prisoners within the Fade, forcing them to teach them everything they wished to know. Long story short, they were born "Dreamers" and used this enhanced form of Magic to enslave elves within the fade. Eventually those "Dreamers" became the Magisters of the Imperium. This is a power that has faded over time. But our little Half/Bred mage pal is one of those "Dreamers". It's not something you can learn. But it does allow them to actually be the shapers of the fade. This is something otherwise that only spirits can do. Not mages.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Filament wrote...

I personally like the idea that Arlathan had a dual existence in both reality and the Fade, and when Tevinter destroyed the real version with foul magic and sunk it into the earth, the Fade version (the "Golden City") got corrupted. Or maybe real world Arlathan got corrupted by some foul magic after it was buried.

That is an interesting thing. Taking that further, I wonder if everything has such a dual existence.

Why the dual existence? Dreamers. Supposedly Elven immortality was achievable by the elder ones eventually going into a long 'hibernation.' Arlathan being the greatest elven city of old perhaps had a lot of these elder elves dreaming, enough to create a parallel city in the Fade.

Yes, I see what you mean. I'd say the elven immortality (if it was indeed true) has to do something with the magic which the dalish display in DA2 with regard to Flemeth. They could've preserved parts of themselves and then later on, with some form of magic are revived/regenerated anew. The arcane warrior spirit in DA:O seems to have been another such example - albeit a forgotten one. The long periods of slumber could just be that - the body dies, but it can be somehow brought back. It could give an "impression" of immortality.

...like Zanarkand.

Dream protagonist for DA3.

Oh? This has been confirmed? I didn't know that.

Speaking of Dreamers, it's interesting that supposedly the Tevinters learned the art of being 'dreamers' from the elves, hence the first archons were dreamers (taken from here).

My thoughts on this one are more in line with Torax's - dreamers are not made but born. Although, one could question, why the first Archons - what was so special about them - why not those who came before them? Leads me to an interesting thought about elven and human hybrid children. It doesn't sound all that impossible, even considering the magisters' supposed contempt for the elves.

And what's Corypheus doing for these thousands of years? What do Old Gods do? Hm...

What are the Old Gods? Dragons, dragon cults, what's the correlation? So many unknowns...

Modifié par MichaelFinnegan, 30 juillet 2011 - 02:20 .

[MichaelFinnegan]

Filament wrote...

Oh, no, I was just speculating and pushing my (facetious) suggestion for DA3. (if you're unaware, in Final Fantasy X, the protagonist, along with his home city of Zanarkand, is actually the dream of some ancient civilization manifested into reality)

Ah, I see. I haven't played any of the FF games, so, I wouldn't know anything about it.

Well, maybe it's not a matter of being taught to be a dreamer so much as being taught how to deal with and take advantage of such powers. The same reason Feynriel is headed to Tevinter if you make the right choices.

Yes, that is entirely possible. And if those archons went on to betray the elves, it would provide for a very interesting past.

[DRTJR]

Filament wrote...

Oh, no, I was just speculating and pushing my (facetious) suggestion for DA3. (if you're unaware, in Final Fantasy X, the protagonist, along with his home city of Zanarkand, is actually the dream of some ancient civilization manifested into reality)

RRRRAAAAGGGGEEEEE!!!!!!! 

sorry it that happens I'd go back in time and terminate the idea before it formed

[Macropodmum]

Torax wrote...

@ Filament,
The Magisters didn't really learn the art of being "Dreamers" from the Elves. Instead they learned of being Dreamers naturally and with likely aid from the Old Gods. As Dreamers they were able to hold Elven Mages as prisoners within the Fade, forcing them to teach them everything they wished to know. Long story short, they were born "Dreamers" and used this enhanced form of Magic to enslave elves within the fade. Eventually those "Dreamers" became the Magisters of the Imperium. This is a power that has faded over time. But our little Half/Bred mage pal is one of those "Dreamers". It's not something you can learn. But it does allow them to actually be the shapers of the fade. This is something otherwise that only spirits can do. Not mages.

Actually that doesn't quite add up if we are to believe that the golden city is indeed in the fade.  Going over Cory's words last night he stated that they were promised the golden light, to which Larius stated that he was talking about the golden city, Cory then responded saying "yes, the city it was supposed to be golden" which indicates to me that he (one of the magisters) didn't really know.  If they had been trapping elves in the fade as you sugest then it should have been evident that the city was golden or not, but from what was said I have to wonder if the magisters had even been in the fade prior to the the attempt to enter the city.

As for his "darkness ever since" comment, I took that to mean that upon entering the blackened city (or the golden one that blackened as they entered) they were tainted and that the darkness he was refrerring to was the darkness within himself.

[Aimi]

Filament wrote...

Dream protagonist for DA3.

On one of these excursions through the Fade, I swear, we're going to run into a guy with a jack o'lantern for a head and a really talkative raven...

[mione]

It's an interesting twist to the story, considering that the tale is the first thing we hear when we enter the series. The 'Golden' city wasn't golden at all, but was already black and corrupted. The Mages are suffering for a crime they didn't even commit. Unless the city was corrupted because it was the home of the dark spawn. Do we know where the city is? we are told it's in the fade but we can't really trust that 100%

[Fault Girl]

Would Dumat have known that the Magister's would have turned/created darkspawn who would in then free the him and Old Gods?

The magisters entering the golden/black city somehow made them connect to the old gods and hear their song. if it was already black, perhaps they (old gods) had already tainted it or created a place where if they were ever defeated or trapped they have a way out?

So many theories.

[Ginkeh]

mione wrote...

 Unless the city was corrupted because it was the home of the dark spawn. Do we know where the city is? we are told it's in the fade but we can't really trust that 100%

Sounds plausible that the the Golden City always was black an tainted, and it`s where the Darkspawn was originally trapped. The Magisters breaking in broke the prison doors wide open and the Darkspawn poured out and into our world.

[TheCreeper]

My theory is that the magisters where actually the first darkspawn as the chantry says but they didn't corrupt the city, the city corrupted them. I also think this maybe part of a plan to wipe out the Old Gods, For all we know a grey warden killing a tainted old god may the only to trully kill an old god, so the darkspawn might be part of a long running plan by the maker or something to elimate the them and he tricked the mages into going by pretending to be Dumat.

[OLDFARTKEYWESTER]

Bazedragon wrote...

I blame Anders. He wants the attention.

But then. The question to me is... was he REALLY a magister? 

Did anyone else notice the fleeting expression that crosses Larius' face just before the fade out at the end?  As soon as he says "Thank you for my...freedom!" the second time he gets this brief really diabolic gleam in his eye, which quickly disappears.  Also, previously, as  Cory is dying he looks toward Larius, who is seen standing in the background, then sighs and passes out.  Could the essence of Cory have passed into Larius?  Could Hawke ironically by slaying Cory have unintentionally set him loose in Larius' body?  Or am I reading too much into the scene?  I suspect Larius will play a major part in the story as it goes on.