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[whykikyouwhy]

OLDFARTKEYWESTER wrote...

Did anyone else notice the fleeting expression that crosses Larius' face just before the fade out at the end?  As soon as he says "Thank you for my...freedom!" the second time he gets this brief really diabolic gleam in his eye, which quickly disappears.  Also, previously, as  Cory is dying he looks toward Larius, who is seen standing in the background, then sighs and passes out.  Could the essence of Cory have passed into Larius?  Could Hawke ironically by slaying Cory have unintentionally set him loose in Larius' body?  Or am I reading too much into the scene?  I suspect Larius will play a major part in the story as it goes on.

pssst....

Modifié par whykikyouwhy, 30 juillet 2011 - 05:40 .

[SirDoctorofTARDIS]

Conspiracy theory.

Perhaps this has something to do with the primeval thaig. The tevinter magistares decided that the surface wasn't suitable for the ritual to enter the gold city and they ventured into the deep roads whcih could explain why it dosn't look Dwarven. And perhaps they used the idol to enter the Golden city.

End Conspiracy theory.

[GavrielKay]

When I heard the Corypheus dialog, I immediately thought that it sounded like the magisters had no idea for sure that there was a Golden City and felt betrayed when they saw only the Black City. So, to me, the dialog indicates that either the city really was Black predating the magisters trip into the Fade, or was corrupted the instant the magisters arrived.

Alternatively, they never actually went to the Fade as they thought and the Chant of Light is completely wrong. I think they would know what the Fade looks like from going there mentally, but perhaps it's different in the flesh.

I wanted there to be a dialog option to tell Anders that Corypheus didn't really confirm the Chant, only that the magisters went somewhere and found a Black City when they arrived. It wouldn't have to confirm or deny the Maker and the rest of the myth.

I also interpreted his "darkness ever since" line to be personal, either his taint, or his imprisonment.

[Torax]

GavrielKay wrote...

When I heard the Corypheus dialog, I immediately thought that it sounded like the magisters had no idea for sure that there was a Golden City and felt betrayed when they saw only the Black City. So, to me, the dialog indicates that either the city really was Black predating the magisters trip into the Fade, or was corrupted the instant the magisters arrived.

Alternatively, they never actually went to the Fade as they thought and the Chant of Light is completely wrong. I think they would know what the Fade looks like from going there mentally, but perhaps it's different in the flesh.

I wanted there to be a dialog option to tell Anders that Corypheus didn't really confirm the Chant, only that the magisters went somewhere and found a Black City when they arrived. It wouldn't have to confirm or deny the Maker and the rest of the myth.

I also interpreted his "darkness ever since" line to be personal, either his taint, or his imprisonment.

In regards to never actually going. The Spirits don't even know what happens when they die. They are also confused about most things from Justice's dialogues in Awakening. So it's possible that they do not even know where or what the "Black city" is. It may actually not exist. What if that Black City everyone sees is just a distant black location that the spirita project for themselves? One of the things that Justice kind of laments in Awakenings is that things in the fade are not constant. So what if that thing that supposedly can be seen at all times is only because the spirits wish to see it? Even if they can never go to this place. They could think it exists as well subconsciously because the mortals dream about it. Just a thought.

Modifié par Torax, 31 juillet 2011 - 05:43 .

[GavrielKay]

Torax wrote...

In regards to never actually going. The Spirits don't even know what happens when they die. They are also confused about most things from Justice's dialogues in Awakening. So it's possible that they do not even know where or what the "Black city" is. It may actually not exist. What if that Black City everyone sees is just a distant black location that the spirita project for themselves? One of the things that Justice kind of laments in Awakenings is that things in the fade are not constant. So what if that thing that supposedly can be seen at all times is only because the spirits wish to see it? Even if they can never go to this place. They could think it exists as well subconsciously because the mortals dream about it. Just a thought.

Yeah, I agree that the Black City may have nothing to do with the Maker or Chantry myth.  It could be a mortal projection from dreamers' visions of "hell" or as you say, the spirits creating their own blackness. 

It is telling that Anders has enough guilt that he leaps to the conclusion that the Chantry might be right.  I didn't think it proved anything except that the magisters were mislead somehow.

[StarcloudSWG]

My own theory is this: The Golden City turning into the Black City happened when the Old Gods of the Elves / Dragons were buried in the earth by the machinations of the Dread Wolf. This happened even before Tevinter, and was a myth/legend/folklore that was appropriated through osmosis into Andraste's Chant. The Chant itself has been heavily modified over the centuries, and may not even have *existed* during Andraste's lifetime.

Tevinter's attempts to enter the Black City might just have been a consequence of them dreaming of the Dragons' own wishes to be free and return from their imprisonment...

[Sepewrath]

My thoughts were definitely that the magisters had never been in the Fade, hence it was sold to them as a land of milk and honey and that the city has been corrupt like that to begin with. I think it does have something to do with the Darkspawn, but I don't think the magisters do.

[StarcloudSWG]

Another possibility I've thought about: The Golden City was the result of the dreams of the Dragons. By using a blood magic ritual to direct the Elven Mirror Portals to allow them to physically enter the Golden City, the magisters corrupted the dream with their presence and were *pulled* from the Fade, to be dumped near Dumat's 'prison', becoming warped and twisted in the process.

[whykikyouwhy]

@StarcloudSWG - In that scenario, what would have been the impetus for the magisters to enter the dream city? What would they have accomplished? Was it to corrupt the dream all along, and in doing so, vanquish the old gods?

[LobselVith8]

Rifneno wrote...

Indeed.  I anxiously await the next DLC where Hawke travels briefly to a future where goodness itself has been sacrificed by blood mages.  ...  Yes, I'm a little pissy about this reveal because it stinks of the DA team trying to justify the Chantry's own crimes so they can have this moral ambiguity they want so bad.

That seems to be the entire premise of Legacy.

[D.Sharrah]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

..."Darkness ever since. How long?" ...

I always took this part to mean that it has been "dark" since he was trapped by the wardens and "put to sleep".  Not having to do with the city...but with his imprisonment.

[IanPolaris]

Filament wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Indeed.  I anxiously await the next DLC where Hawke travels briefly to a future where goodness itself has been sacrificed by blood mages.  ...  Yes, I'm a little pissy about this reveal because it stinks of the DA team trying to justify the Chantry's own crimes so they can have this moral ambiguity they want so bad.

That seems to be the entire premise of Legacy.

It's not like they just pulled that explanation out of the blue. That's been the Chantry's story all along. If there's anyone you should be pissy at it's yourself for assuming said story must be a complete fabrication.

Lob is being "pissy" for good reason.  It tells me that bioware still has it's nose out of joint for people favoring mages and will continue to dump on them in DA3 and beyond.  It is this that has made me an ex-customer.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Filament wrote...

Far be it from mages to ever use the enormous power at their disposal to do questionable things.

What like commit genocide over a crime that that targeted group never committed?

Oh wait.......

-Polaris

[TEWR]

StarcloudSWG wrote...

Another possibility I've thought about: The Golden City was the result of the dreams of the Dragons. By using a blood magic ritual to direct the Elven Mirror Portals to allow them to physically enter the Golden City, the magisters corrupted the dream with their presence and were *pulled* from the Fade, to be dumped near Dumat's 'prison', becoming warped and twisted in the process.

The Tevinters used blood magic on the Eluvians and only got a device for communication across Thedas, so blood magic doesn't do anything to them.

[LobselVith8]

"Technically," that's the only reason Meredith gives for committing genocide against hundreds of men, women, and children.

[TEWR]

"The Grand Cleric has been slain, the Chantry destroyed."

secretly she's thinking "A mage killed her! This is my chance! I'll kill them all and invent a story to pin the blame on the mages!"

Honestly I can't see how supporting the Templars is the good choice because it's just more death and that thins the Veil even more than it already is.

[Conduit0]

IanPolaris wrote...

Lob is being "pissy" for good reason.  It tells me that bioware still has it's nose out of joint for people favoring mages and will continue to dump on them in DA3 and beyond.  It is this that has made me an ex-customer.

-Polaris

If you're an "ex-customer" why are you still posting on these forums, whats the point?

As for why Lob is being pissy, it seems more like it must just be that time of the month than anything else. If anything Corypheus' statements exonerate the Magisters from the evil the Chantry claim they commited. If the city was already black and corrupted before they even entered it, than it means the claims that the Darkspawn taint was a punishment handed down by the Maker is a lie and infact isn't Magisters who corrupted the city, but rather it was the city who corrupted them. Meaning that the Magisters are only guilty of being unwitting dupes in Dumat's plan to free himself.

Furthermore Codex entries from Legacy seems to suggest that the madness, violence, and rampant blood magic use that has plagued Kirkwall for centuries may infact have been due to Corypheus' influence on the areas surrounding the prison.

[Harcken]

I think it was already black like Corypheus said. It would make for an interesting story/plot thread. It would be more interesting and plausible if the chantry got some of the story right...but missed an even darker point (which could be explored in another DA game).