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[LobselVith8]

Are people only allowed to post on these forums if they are fanboys, Conduit0? Are people not allowed to voice criticism of a product they paid money for? I didn't realize blind devotion was the only form of post permitted here, I thought people were allowed to provide their honest opinion on a product they purchased.

As for not liking Legacy, I thought it was a poor story, and Anders' words seemed like another blatant attempt to bash the mages, especially given Gaider's infamous comments about mages only being innocent of being mages, and criticizing people who sided with the mages because of their "Western values." I expected a good story, one where choice would be significant, which was addressed as one of the problems that would be tackled in LaidlW's "Thank You" thread. Instead, it was as honest as Dragon Age 2 being about Hawke's "rise to power," where every choice we mXd would shape Kirkwall. If you feel the need to denigrate women because I don't like being lied to by the Powers That Be, that's your perogative.

[stewie1974]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Are people only allowed to post on these forums if they are fanboys, Conduit0? Are people not allowed to voice criticism of a product they paid money for? I didn't realize blind devotion was the only form of post permitted here, I thought people were allowed to provide their honest opinion on a product they purchased.

No but it does help if you read the topics.

This is a discussion about the golden city not a discussion of wether you liked or disliked the story.

[Alexander1136]

TheTWF wrote...

To quote Corypheus:

"The light. We sought the golden light. You (Dumat) offered the power of the gods themselves."

"But it was... black... corrupt."

"The city! It was supposed to be golden!"

Hot damn. Is he implying that the Golden City was already the Black City when they arrived?

people have said this already but it sounds like what really happend was a mix of chantry and dalish lore. the magisters went to the black city and the old gods went to the deep roads and got trapped in prisons

[LobselVith8]

It would probably help if you read the prior topics so you would realize what you're talking about, stewie1974.

[whykikyouwhy]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Are people only allowed to post on these forums if they are fanboys, Conduit0? Are people not allowed to voice criticism of a product they paid money for? I didn't realize blind devotion was the only form of post permitted here, I thought people were allowed to provide their honest opinion on a product they purchased.

As for not liking Legacy, I thought it was a poor story, and Anders' words seemed like another blatant attempt to bash the mages, especially given Gaider's infamous comments about mages only being innocent of being mages, and criticizing people who sided with the mages because of their "Western values." I expected a good story, one where choice would be significant, which was addressed as one of the problems that would be tackled in LaidlW's "Thank You" thread. Instead, it was as honest as Dragon Age 2 being about Hawke's "rise to power," where every choice we mXd would shape Kirkwall. If you feel the need to denigrate women because I don't like being lied to by the Powers That Be, that's your perogative.

I don't think, for a single minute, that only "blind devotion" is what is allowed on the BSN. The numerous threads of criticism would counter that.

The thing is, people are going to disagree. Either we can try to make our cases soundly and poiltely and hopefully be able to say to one another "Hey, that's a good point, and while I may not fully believe what you propose, you've given me much to consider", or we can go our separate ways and agree to disagree, then move on to something else.

But regarding being lied to - I posted this in another thread, but it's applicable here:

"Rise to power" and "shape Kirkwall" are really vague statements at best. There is implication in both, but there is plenty of room for interpretation. Did Hawke rise to power? Yes. Hawke's station in life changes from refugee to noble/champion. Did Hawke shape Kirkwall? Yes. Hawke affected the lives of numerous individuals as well as became a figure in the mage/templar conflict.

How Hawke rose to power and how Hawke shaped Kirkwall is really the issue for most people, I would wager.

Maybe this is just me, but I don't give a lot of credence to catch phrases, especially those in advertising or marketing campaigns. There are numerous things that draw me to make a purchase of a game. So, as such, I don't feel like I was lied to, nor do I feel like any lies were told. But that hearkens back to disagreement and perspective.

Modifié par whykikyouwhy, 10 août 2011 - 02:06 .

[Medhia Nox]

I have yet to play Legacy, but so what if the Chantry is right?

So what if the mages of the Tevinter Imperium were evil bastards and cursed everyone with the darkspawn.

So what if mages are genuinely dangerous and some level of precaution should be leveled against them.

So what if "sometimes men in power do bad things" - this notion that it's okay for mages to be a-holes but not the Chantry is a double standard anyway.

===

So, the Chantry is right and hubris turned the Golden City black. What does that mean for the protagonist of DA 3? "He/She" didn't do it?

Anders was already a disgusting bastard who killed innocent and guilty alike in his own act of hubris masked as 'mage liberation'. What does that mean to the protagonist of DA 3?

===

Having it shown that there's a Maker - or the Golden City was corrupted by mages (and shocker, mages can be bad too) - doesn't mean squat to a protagonist who probably doesn't know these things.

===

Bioware - just free the mages already so they can be like every other trite fantasy world where wizardry is everywhere and quite boring.

Exonerate them and turn them into heroes for the whole world to see - people who play mages tend to do so because they feel powerless in real life anyway - give them a bone in the game world and let their freak flag fly. Let them cut themselves like the little Twilight weirdos they are.

[LobselVith8]

Medhia, I take more issue with the "you have two choices that are going to lead to the same conclusion" route that people criticized about with Dragon Age 2. The mage aspect if the storyline bothers me because the writers handle templars and mages poorly - they killed Thrask instead of utilizing him as a good templar option, and Meredith was their best attempt to persuade people to side with the templars over an act the Circle of Kirkwall had nothing to do with. I simply don't think they have the writing ability to handle subtlety or address this dichotomy in an intelligent manner. We see how bad it got with Orsino and Meredith - two ridiculous caricatures who were more cartoons than characters.

[Macropodmum]

OK back on topic I had a thought. After discussing elven architecture yesterday I was pondering what the elven city would indeed look like if I decided to sit down and sketch it, funnily enough I couldn't shake the image of a soft golden glow coming from the city.

Now what if the golden city was never the seat of the maker as per chantry propoganda but instead it was Arlathan? Maybe the magisters were seeking the immortality of the elves but upon entering the city (which may have had a magical barrier?) it became tainted resulting in the elves losing their immortality, the city blackening it and the magisters then sinking the city in retribution?

It would figure that if Dumat was one of the forgotten ones that he may have known what would happen if the magisters entered Arlathan, gaining valuable servants who would attempt to free him and getting back at the elves for abandoning him...please feel free to poke holes in this now

[whykikyouwhy]

Macropodmum wrote...

OK back on topic I had a thought. After discussing elven architecture yesterday I was pondering what the elven city would indeed look like if I decided to sit down and sketch it, funnily enough I couldn't shake the image of a soft golden glow coming from the city.

Now what if the golden city was never the seat of the maker as per chantry propoganda but instead it was Arlathan? Maybe the magisters were seeking the immortality of the elves but upon entering the city (which may have had a magical barrier?) it became tainted resulting in the elves losing their immortality, the city blackening it and the magisters then sinking the city in retribution?

It would figure that if Dumat was one of the forgotten ones that he may have known what would happen if the magisters entered Arlathan, gaining valuable servants who would attempt to free him and getting back at the elves for abandoning him...please feel free to poke holes in this now

I think your theory has some validity, but Corypheus's comments regarding "the city was already black" (poor paraphrasing) would counter that.

But the magisters seeking immortality specifically - I think that might be something worth exploring.

[Macropodmum]

I realise he said it was black, but I also think the blackness could have occured as they pushed through the barrier, kind of like your golden twinkie idea...

Edit: Think of adding vinegar to bicarb, there is no reaction till the two meet...

Modifié par Macropodmum, 10 août 2011 - 02:37 .

[whykikyouwhy]

Macropodmum wrote...

I realise he said it was black, but I also think the blackness could have occured as they pushed through the barrier, kind of like your golden twinkie idea...

Ha! You get major points for the reference of the almight Twinkie!

That's a possibility, sure. They breach the threshold, and walk into the shadowy vileness. But it would seem that if the magisters then destroyed the Golden-Black City (or Arlathan) as retribution for the illusion, Corypheus would have mentioned it in some of his sleepy musings. Of course, that might be too much of a give-away.

If that occured though, how does that explain the constant-in-the-distance image of the Black City when entering the Fade? Is it an echo of the destroyed elven capital?

[Macropodmum]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Macropodmum wrote...

I realise he said it was black, but I also think the blackness could have occured as they pushed through the barrier, kind of like your golden twinkie idea...

Ha! You get major points for the reference of the almight Twinkie!

Lol

whykikyouwhy wrote...

That's a possibility, sure. They breach the threshold, and walk into the shadowy vileness. But it would seem that if the magisters then destroyed the Golden-Black City (or Arlathan) as retribution for the illusion, Corypheus would have mentioned it in some of his sleepy musings. Of course, that might be too much of a give-away.

Well we did awakenin him from how many years of sleep?  And Larius mentions we must kill him before he really gets his thinking cap back on...I really didn't think there was much of a time span between wakening him and killing him...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

If that occured though, how does that explain the constant-in-the-distance image of the Black City when entering the Fade? Is it an echo of the destroyed elven capital?

I would agree with the echo idea, a footprint of what was?

Modifié par Macropodmum, 10 août 2011 - 03:09 .

[whykikyouwhy]

I feel as though the Black City in the Fade is what the spirits of the Fade constructed when trying to emulate the living world - they lumped all of the negative that they found in the hearts of men and fashioned the city image. It is in the same point in the Fade because it's ever present in men's hearts - and always in his peripheral vision, so to speak.

So maybe, just maybe, the city-in-the-Fade is almost like a painting of what happened with Arlathan - a constant reminder of what was lost?

I don't know...something is there, all fuzzy and indistinct, but I don't think I've properly wrapped my head around it yet.

[TEWR]

Filament wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Honestly I can't see how supporting the Templars is the good choice because it's just more death and that thins the Veil even more than it already is.

Saying it's 'the' good choice implies the mage choice is 'the' evil choice, which is not what I'm saying. I'm saying, if you go from a point of view that the mages have no chance against the templars and rioting Kirkwallers, sure you can side with the mages, maybe you kill a lot of templars and a lot of Kirkwallers but eventually all the mages are going to die anyway (and yourself), as well as a lot of citizens of the city you're supposed to protect. Or you can side with the templars (not Meredith) and try to act as a tempering influence to try to limit casualties and spare innocent mages if possible.

Hawke doesn't know like the player does that both paths lead to victory.

Bah I meant to type "a good choice". Damn word confusions

Anyway, I don't see it as a good choice because of what I said. The Veil would thin even more with all the death that's caused (all mages die, Templars die too, civilians die if any). At least with the mages you're keeping the death toll to some mages, some templars, and some civilians if any (aside from the fireworks show that is)

You can think you're doing good by siding with the Templars, but because of how thin the Veil is and how many new deaths are caused, the Veil becomes even thinner, which will lead to Kirkwall being worse in the future. More demons, more abominations, more bad **** happening.

Even Hawke should know that if he picks up the Enigma of Kirkwall entries saying the Veil is thin in Kirkwall, along with his experiences with Lady Harimann where a non-mage person was influenced by a demon and given magic, along with how the red lyrium around Kirkwall thins the Veil even worse.

[TEWR]

I have to disagree. You're choosing to annul the entire Circle, which means all of the hundreds (possibly few thousand) of mages are all going to die.

Siding with the mages though doesn't mean you want to kill every Templar. It means that you want the mages to escape, which can be done by using the underground passage leading from the Gallows to Darktown.

Not only that, you have at least one rogue who could launch Miasmic Flasks at the Templars, stunning them and reducing the amount of killing you have to do.

Siding with the Templars only has one option: Kill. Siding with the Mages has options beyond just killing.

Though of course in-game all you do is kill.

[Macropodmum]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

I feel as though the Black City in the Fade is what the spirits of the Fade constructed when trying to emulate the living world - they lumped all of the negative that they found in the hearts of men and fashioned the city image. It is in the same point in the Fade because it's ever present in men's hearts - and always in his peripheral vision, so to speak.

So maybe, just maybe, the city-in-the-Fade is almost like a painting of what happened with Arlathan - a constant reminder of what was lost?

I don't know...something is there, all fuzzy and indistinct, but I don't think I've properly wrapped my head around it yet.

I think it is a perfectly plausible explanation

[TEWR]

Fancy cybernetic bear wrote...

You're choosing to side with the people annulling the Circle. To hopefully stay their hand when you can.

Except Meredith calls for the entire Circle to be annulled, and won't even bother to seek justice on the real culprit who's sitting on a crate staring at the walls.

Meredith was obviously going too far (while legally allowed, it was too far. Especially when the Circle wasn't beyond saving because Orsino makes one last ditch effort to get her to call off the Annulment saying he'll help her find blood mages (and I imagine he'd give himself up too), which she won't even listen to.).

If you side with the Circle instead, they'll still all be annulled, and you as well. And a lot more Kirkwallers and templars.

They'll still be annulled, yes, but you have the option of saving mages and you're not forced to kill Templars. It's not a requirement of siding with the mages.

The underground passage and miasmic flask plan does not sound like the most foolproof plan my Hawke has ever heard, not the least of which because the Templars know about the passage themselves... maybe that's why the only option given is 'stand and fight.'

I also forgot about Mind Blast. And Sleep. And Horror. And Telekinetic Burst. Mind Blast sends them flying back, Sleep is obvious, Horror makes them stand still with fright, Telekenetic burst sends them flying too.

Oh and Pommel strike and Petrify.

You have more ways to make sure Templars don't get killed beyond the Miasmic Flask. Even if you don't use the passage itself, you can still use them while fleeing the fortress and getting them to the boats (the Gallows has more than one way to its docking area). And while Templars can nullify magic, they can't always do it. Especially if you catch them by surprise.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 10 août 2011 - 04:18 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I have to disagree. You're choosing to annul the entire Circle, which means all of the hundreds (possibly few thousand) of mages are all going to die.

Siding with the mages though doesn't mean you want to kill every Templar. It means that you want the mages to escape, which can be done by using the underground passage leading from the Gallows to Darktown.

Not only that, you have at least one rogue who could launch Miasmic Flasks at the Templars, stunning them and reducing the amount of killing you have to do.

Siding with the Templars only has one option: Kill. Siding with the Mages has options beyond just killing.

Though of course in-game all you do is kill.

Hundreds? Thousands? I never got the impression from either game that there were all that much more than several dozen mages in the Circles we saw. If Meredith had been charged with watching thousands of mages there'd be no way she'd have been able to control the situation at all.

[Macropodmum]

Filament wrote...

If it's Arlathan (or dream Arlathan, as I like to think), it would have turned tainted when the Tevinters sunk the real Arlathan into the ground, I would think. Maybe the elves turned the magic of their immortality into a curse to spite anyone who should come upon the remains of their city. (I think this was Rifneno's idea)

Sorry Filament, I missed this post in amongst the mage Vs templar debate going on...if it only tainted after it was sunk then I would assume the magisters knew what was in it when they sunk it, from what Cory says I don't think he really knew what the state of the city he was entering was, I believe he was acting purely on information supplied by Dumat....

The elves could have cursed it as Rif thought but at the moment it is all wild speculation I guess

[Rifneno]

Filament wrote...

You're choosing to side with the people annulling the Circle. To hopefully stay their hand when you can.

No. You're choosing to murder a bunch of people who weren't even involved in the crime they're being executed without trial for. Sugar coat that all you want on your own, everyone's canon is their own. But trying to pass off that mockery of logic to us is just insulting the intelligence of everyone here.

I can just see how that argument would've worked at Nuremberg. "Yes, I killed 50 jews with my bare hands, but I only did it to get close to Hitler so I could talk some sense into him." ... They'd have probably hung the bastard with his own intestines. And rightfully so.

If you side with the Circle instead, they'll still all be annulled, and you as well. And a lot more Kirkwallers and templars.

Oh yeah, we wouldn't want the people trying to commit genocide against helpless prisoners to get hurt! Heavens no!

[LobselVith8]

Filament wrote...

Still a weak plan. Siding with the mages is suicide and serves nothing except your conscience, that you fought to the death against the injustice of an insurmountable force. My Hawke saw it as an injustice too, but he had to work with the cards he was given in the best interest of the city, mages included.

It's a plan that's meant to try to save the lives of hundreds of innocent men, women, and children who shouldn't be condemned simply because of the actions of one, single man, which Meredith makes clear is the only reason she's executing the enchanters, mages, and apprentices of the Circle of Kirkwall. Maybe Hawke doesn't know that it will work, but it seems that it's a gamble intended to save as many lives as he can from Meredith's insanity, no matter if he dies in the process. I don't see murdering men, women, and children who are being slaughtered simply for being mages as an alternative that I'd ever consider.

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Hundreds? Thousands? I never got the impression from either game that there were all that much more than several dozen mages in the Circles we saw. If Meredith had been charged with watching thousands of mages there'd be no way she'd have been able to control the situation at all.

Genitivi's codex on the Circle of Kirkwall specifically states there are hundreds at the time of his last visit, and that's before the influx of mages from the burned down Circle of Starkhaven.