149 réponses à ce sujet

[esper]

Yeah. I don't belive in the Maker so I don't by the first children theory. But it is good we don't know for sure, that means I haven't missed a codex. But it does kind of make me wonder how new are born since they apperently don't think in male and female.

[TEWR]

It's possible the way a new spirit is created has to do with the idea of Shah Wyrd, the rage demon that had to do with distraction IIRC. By thinking of a spirit that embodies a virtue or demon that embodies a vice, maybe he comes into existence?

Or maybe it's tied to the wisps. As remnants of demons, maybe they're reborn as something else?

Or Justice's line has something to it.

I was not born. I simply am--- Justice

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 10 août 2011 - 06:24 .

[LobselVith8]

esper wrote...

Yeah. I don't belive in the Maker so I don't by the first children theory.

Merrill doesn't either, much to Anders' annoyance. He verbally talks about the Maker's First Children to her when discussing spirits and demons.

[esper]

Anders is actually a very devout andrastian - he don't like the institution: The Chantry.
But I am not sure we will ever get to the answer of what spirits and demons really are, because for some reason Justice gave me the impression in DA:A that the spirits takes their belief from human dreams, and the demons really don't care - so if neither spirit nor demons really know then who can give us a reliable explanation.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

If they were the Maker's first Children, then Justice and all the other Fade denizens would've known that. They wouldn't have had to look into the dreams of mortals to wonder if there was a Maker when demons supposedly envy mortals for the Maker turning his gaze on them.

And then the demon in the Ser Otto quest said "There is no Maker. There is no Golden City."

That demon says a lot of things. Earlier in the quest he also says "Your pathetic Maker is nothing compared to my glory" and "Let us see if your precious Maker can protect you now, worm" so I'm fairly sure he was just trying to get under Ser Otto's skin, especially since Justice says spirits don't know any more than mortals and even have their own set of diverse beliefs on the subject.

[Herr Uhl]

Filament wrote...

Anyway... it's a shark.

I wonder if the leader of the magisters operation was named Arthur.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 10 août 2011 - 07:43 .

[TEWR]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

If they were the Maker's first Children, then Justice and all the other Fade denizens would've known that. They wouldn't have had to look into the dreams of mortals to wonder if there was a Maker when demons supposedly envy mortals for the Maker turning his gaze on them.

And then the demon in the Ser Otto quest said "There is no Maker. There is no Golden City."

That demon says a lot of things. Earlier in the quest he also says "Your pathetic Maker is nothing compared to my glory" and "Let us see if your precious Maker can protect you now, worm" so I'm fairly sure he was just trying to get under Ser Otto's skin, especially since Justice says spirits don't know any more than mortals and even have their own set of diverse beliefs on the subject.

You're confusing what one of the Rage Demons in that quest says with another. There were three demons in that quest.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 10 août 2011 - 07:54 .

[esper]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

If they were the Maker's first Children, then Justice and all the other Fade denizens would've known that. They wouldn't have had to look into the dreams of mortals to wonder if there was a Maker when demons supposedly envy mortals for the Maker turning his gaze on them.

And then the demon in the Ser Otto quest said "There is no Maker. There is no Golden City."

That demon says a lot of things. Earlier in the quest he also says "Your pathetic Maker is nothing compared to my glory" and "Let us see if your precious Maker can protect you now, worm" so I'm fairly sure he was just trying to get under Ser Otto's skin, especially since Justice says spirits don't know any more than mortals and even have their own set of diverse beliefs on the subject.

You're confusing what one of the Rage Demons in that quest says with another. There were three demons in that quest.

I love that quest , but it isn't the most reliable thing to build a view on considering that all the rage demons in that quest were properly trying to get under the templars' skin.

[TEWR]

perhaps. Still, it's something to ponder on. I'm not saying it's definite, but it is interesting. Maybe they were doing both? Saying the truth and getting under his skin.

I did hate though how my Warden just stood there blankly while a pitchfork is raised into the air and he doesn't even push Ser Otto out of the way.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

If they were the Maker's first Children, then Justice and all the other Fade denizens would've known that. They wouldn't have had to look into the dreams of mortals to wonder if there was a Maker when demons supposedly envy mortals for the Maker turning his gaze on them.

And then the demon in the Ser Otto quest said "There is no Maker. There is no Golden City."

That demon says a lot of things. Earlier in the quest he also says "Your pathetic Maker is nothing compared to my glory" and "Let us see if your precious Maker can protect you now, worm" so I'm fairly sure he was just trying to get under Ser Otto's skin, especially since Justice says spirits don't know any more than mortals and even have their own set of diverse beliefs on the subject.

You're confusing what one of the Rage Demons in that quest says with another. There were three demons in that quest.

I thought they were all the same demon and killing it was harder than Otto thought. Either way though, the point mostly still stands.

[esper]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

perhaps. Still, it's something to ponder on. I'm not saying it's definite, but it is interesting. Maybe they were doing both? Saying the truth and getting under his skin.

I did hate though how my Warden just stood there blankly while a pitchfork is raised into the air and he doesn't even push Ser Otto out of the way.

The best lies alway contains part of the truth, right?

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

@ esper and @ Jedi Master

The DAO offical walkthrough has a section on population. For Ferelden alone this is what it states.

Capital of Denerim has a population of 70,000
Highever 20,000
Gwaren 10,000
Lothering 500
Redcliffe 200

Population total 1,000,000
Government: Monarchy
Religion: Chantry (90% of the population)

I guess every player would have to guess mages vs regular population.

I haven't checked my DA2 for population of the Free Marches.

I posted these figures in case anyone wants to figure out the possible mage vs regular population ratio.  I'm not good at math so I'll leave this to someone else if they'd like to try.

Modifié par ElvaliaRavenHart, 11 août 2011 - 12:30 .

[Sepewrath]

There's really no way to guess unless they give a number like say 1 out of every 50 are born with magic. Also that number for the population isn't right,because it doesn't take into account the Dalish and Chasind, which would also factor in figuring out a ratio.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

Sepewrath wrote...

There's really no way to guess unless they give a number like say 1 out of every 50 are born with magic. Also that number for the population isn't right,because it doesn't take into account the Dalish and Chasind, which would also factor in figuring out a ratio.

These figures are from the "Offical Walkthrough of DAO, page 349 to be exact.  Any one else want to verify this who might also have a CE of DAO walkthrough.

Anyone trained in figuring stats will be able to take these figures and arrive at an approximate ratio.  Also notice I did say each player will have to make their own guess what they think the ratio might be.

I posted this as an information tidbit only.  In case someone was interested. 

 The walkthrough doesn't say if the Dalish and Chasind are included.  So I can't address this, only the developers can do this.

[StarcloudSWG]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

@StarcloudSWG - In that scenario, what would have been the impetus for the magisters to enter the dream city? What would they have accomplished? Was it to corrupt the dream all along, and in doing so, vanquish the old gods?

Corypheus tells you what they meant to accomplish. Entering the Golden City was, they believed, supposed to give them the power of the Gods.

[Macropodmum]

GavrielKay wrote...

Do we know when Arlathan fell? If had been the Golden City and was turned black by the elves or Magisters, did it happen long enough before the attempt to reach the "Golden City of the Fade" for Corypheus to not recognize it or think it a possibility? He seems convinced that they went to the Fade and the city that was supposed to be Golden was already black. If it was Arlathan rather than the Fade, it would have to be pretty convincing.

I don't believe that Corypheus' words in any way prove that the Magister's corrupted the Golden City though. If anything, he opens up wild possibilities for if the city was ever Golden and if so, what happened to it.

Corypheus never mentioned the fade though, just they were promised the golden light and the city was supposed to be golden.  Everyone is assuming that the golden city was in the fade based purely on what the chantry says...

Rifneno wrote...

As to the question of the Golden City, here's a thought... what if it was full of lyrium?  Here's a sniplet of the original lyrium codex: "Mages have additionally been known to suffer physical mutation: The magister lords of the Tevinter Imperium were widely reputed to have been so affected by their years of lyrium use that they could not be recognized by their own kin, nor even as creatures that had once been human."  It would also explain why some ancient dwarven writings claim they showed up there first.  What if darkspawn are just the result of exposure to incredible amounts of lyrium?

It is a possibility I guess...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

If they were the Maker's first Children, then Justice and all the other Fade denizens would've known that. They wouldn't have had to look into the dreams of mortals to wonder if there was a Maker when demons supposedly envy mortals for the Maker turning his gaze on them.

And then the demon in the Ser Otto quest said "There is no Maker. There is no Golden City."

Which would support the notion that if there was a golden city it was never in the fade....

[esper]

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

@ esper and @ Jedi Master

The DAO offical walkthrough has a section on population. For Ferelden alone this is what it states.

Capital of Denerim has a population of 70,000
Highever 20,000
Gwaren 10,000
Lothering 500
Redcliffe 200

Population total 1,000,000
Government: Monarchy
Religion: Chantry (90% of the population)

I guess every player would have to guess mages vs regular population.

I haven't checked my DA2 for population of the Free Marches.

I posted these figures in case anyone wants to figure out the possible mage vs regular population ratio.  I'm not good at math so I'll leave this to someone else if they'd like to try.

Uhm... why are you randomly postin population number to me when we were discussing demons? I guess I could find my databook for DA2 to see what the population in Kirkwall was, but... what is the point. I think that the mages are vastely outnumbered, but again I don't see what it had to do with the rage demons lying to ser Otto in the orphange quest. I have been involved in a discussing about how the demons are born and what the believe in, know abouts the Maker....   

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

esper wrote...

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

@ esper and @ Jedi Master

The DAO offical walkthrough has a section on population. For Ferelden alone this is what it states.

Capital of Denerim has a population of 70,000
Highever 20,000
Gwaren 10,000
Lothering 500
Redcliffe 200

Population total 1,000,000
Government: Monarchy
Religion: Chantry (90% of the population)

I guess every player would have to guess mages vs regular population.

I haven't checked my DA2 for population of the Free Marches.

I posted these figures in case anyone wants to figure out the possible mage vs regular population ratio.  I'm not good at math so I'll leave this to someone else if they'd like to try.

Uhm... why are you randomly postin population number to me when we were discussing demons? I guess I could find my databook for DA2 to see what the population in Kirkwall was, but... what is the point. I think that the mages are vastely outnumbered, but again I don't see what it had to do with the rage demons lying to ser Otto in the orphange quest. I have been involved in a discussing about how the demons are born and what the believe in, know abouts the Maker....   

Maybe I misread, but I thought a point was made in this discussion of this thread back near page four to be exact, on what could be the ratio of mages within the general population.  I think where it was stated how many mages could be within each circle.  Like I said, someone who has been trained to figures stats might come up with an approximate number given the population stated in the walkthrough.   I'm not sure if it was you or someone else that mentioned their own guess on how many mages might be within the circles.  

Actually it was Jedi Master of Orion that brought this point up. 

I got the impression from both games, there are alot of mages.  The gallows is a good indication of this with just it's size if you really take a look at this building.  I got  the impression that there are as many mages in Ferelden as with Kirkwall.   The Ferelden Circle seems to be slightly smaller though and this could be just due to how the tower looks and the way the developers built the tower.   The building and compound could be larger than the tower actually appears in Ferelden. Also the war with Orlais, the broken circle quest, and the mages helping battle the blight and it's just common sense that many have died.

Also, consider that templars are also stationed there and they would have their own barracks and quarters.  The game is limited in it's size on how the developers build these buildings.  This doesn't take away from what we actually see on screen to the population.  The Chantries in Ferelden also point to this.  They have Templars living there along with the Reverend Mothers and Lay sisters they have to have large living quarters to house all of these people.  Even though the buildings don't actually indicate this. 

Denerim doesn't appear to be that big or have a population of  70,000 people within it's walls, given we don't actually see that many people walking around.  This information from the walkthrough is to give you a mental image of the various sizes of the population and the people said to be living in these areas.  I'd image there are 1/4 to 1/2 of the population being mages in all of Thedas.  This is my guess.  These buildings the cirlces are to represent the living quarters of a very large group of people.  Templars and mages alike.  

Without the walkthrough I would never had guessed there was that many people living in just Denerim alone.  I would have guessed 5,000 and below.  I thought the stats for Redcliffe was kinda low from the developers where they say Redcliffe has a population of 200.  Especially given the size of Redcliffe castle off in the distance when looking at the castle from the Village.  I'd come closer to saying this was the population of just the village even through the walkthrough says Recliffe period.

It would take alot of people in service to the Arls and Teyrns to maintain castles of these sizes.  In the Human Noble Story, we are not even shown the possible full size of Highever.  Highever and Gwaren are where the Monarch's troops are housed and trained. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

Sepewrath wrote...

There's really no way to guess unless they give a number like say 1 out of every 50 are born with magic. Also that number for the population isn't right,because it doesn't take into account the Dalish and Chasind, which would also factor in figuring out a ratio.

Neither Chasind, nor Dalish are Fereldan, which is why they aren't part of the statistic over Ferelden's population. Those two are at best temporary residents, and at worst permanent uninvited "houseguests", neither of which would qualify them as Fereldan.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Sepewrath wrote...

There's really no way to guess unless they give a number like say 1 out of every 50 are born with magic. Also that number for the population isn't right,because it doesn't take into account the Dalish and Chasind, which would also factor in figuring out a ratio.

Neither Chasind, nor Dalish are Fereldan, which is why they aren't part of the statistic over Ferelden's population. Those two are at best temporary residents, and at worst permanent uninvited "houseguests", neither of which would qualify them as Fereldan.

The walkthrough nor have the developers addressed this issue over these other people being part of the population count. 

Do players consider Orzammar being part of Ferelden?

Personally, I would include all of these people myself. 

Once again, this is something that a developer would have to adddress. 

[TEWR]

I'd consider Orzammar and Kal-Sharok as two separate countries unto themselves.

I also imagine that Kal-Sharok, being at one time the seat of the Dwarven empire, is a bigger city than Orzammar and thus has more people than Orzammar. Though we know they suffered heavy losses in their survival, but that doesn't really tell us much. They could've suffered heavy losses and still have more Dwarves than Orzammar.

And I actually want to see a few more great thaigs that survived. I enjoy the Dwarves greatly. I also want the damn dwarves that live underground to have Scottish accents.

[EmperorSahlertz]

BioWare purposely chose not to stereotype the Dwarves into having scottish accent. Sadly.

[TEWR]

Well I hope they change their stance and give the ones underneath Thedas Scottish accents. It does fit the Dwarves very well.

[Sepewrath]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Sepewrath wrote...

There's really no way to guess unless they give a number like say 1 out of every 50 are born with magic. Also that number for the population isn't right,because it doesn't take into account the Dalish and Chasind, which would also factor in figuring out a ratio.

Neither Chasind, nor Dalish are Fereldan, which is why they aren't part of the statistic over Ferelden's population. Those two are at best temporary residents, and at worst permanent uninvited "houseguests", neither of which would qualify them as Fereldan.

If I was doing a count to see how many people are born with magic vs those who are not, I couldn't limit it by people's nationality. I would have to take everyone in Ferelden into account, I wouldn't count Orzammar though(or any dwarf for that matter) because they have no mages and would skew the number to be lower than it should.