72 réponses à ce sujet

[MisanthropePrime]

I'd like to believe Flemeth is one of the two remaining Old Gods (Judging by her personality, I'd say Razikale) simply because, well, she turns into a high dragon. If she were Fen'harel, I'd like to THINK she'd turn into a wolf rather than a dragon, though granted, that'd be too... overt?

[Morroian]

Mash Mashington wrote...

Hey that's my theory!

Anyway, now tell me who Flemeth is

Andraste

[Rifneno]

miraclemight wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Maybe. We'd have to research and find out if any extremely powerful beings of mysterious origins appeared as an adult 26 years after Dumat was slain.

That's an interesting discovery.

Indeed. I think I still have a fracture in my jaw from when it hit the ground at mach 4 when I first read someone suggest it. I wanted to smack myself for not having thought of it myself, it makes so many pieces fit together.

Torax wrote...

Granted that Andraste was killed publically. Burned at the stake. Speared. Reduced to Ashes and so on. Fully dead.

Make sure you CC that memo to Corypheus. Flemeth too. Any archdemon not slain by a Grey Warden. Oh, and Commander Shepard.

Also Flemeth seems to be uncaring in regards to it all. Flemeth was from a time long before the days of Andraste it seems. Staying in the Wilds. I just fail to see the benefit on her end. Keep in mind from a writing premise that Flemeth & Morrigan serve one purpose. Preserving the World. They care about nothing else. She raised Morrigan to even be that way. Blights are something to worry about. Andraste had nothing to do with it. Grey Wardens she cares about. Yet another religion? Doesn't matter to Flemeth or Morrigan in the slightest.

So now we're so sure that Flemeth is Andraste that we're shooting down other theories based on that. Beautiful. It's also now impossible for someone's outlook or methods to change over 1,000 years.

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

We don't know how old Flemeth is. The legends of Flemeth date back to the Towers Age but beyond that we don't know if she predates Andraste or not.

We also don't know how reliable those records are. This DLC was about a Warden prison that predates when we were told the Wardens were founded by 800 years.

tmp7704 wrote...

Considering said being then went on a crusade to destroy the empire which worshipped the old gods... well, that would be an odd thing for an old god to do.

Odder than telling his devoted followers to do something that would lead them to a corruption that makes the bubonic plague look like a day at the beach? In fact, it may play into a greater scheme. The reason Andraste was able to bring down the Imperium is because 200 years of Blight, caused directly by Dumat in more ways than one, had already brought it to its knees. Or there's the simpler explanation... an OGB may very well not have a memory of its former life as a Tevinter dragongod. If Morrigan was telling the truth, this is almost certainly the case. She said she'd raise the child a certain way, but if it had its full memory and personality of lives past then there'd be no "raising" it.

Edit:  I suck at quoting.

Modifié par Rifneno, 28 juillet 2011 - 09:43 .

[WhiteKnyght]

Filament wrote...

If Flemeth is Dumat I guess she figured out a way to eat darkspawn without becoming an archdemon... and suppress whatever it is about Old Gods that naturally makes darkspawn drawn to them, making the spawn avoid her hut instead of swarming it.

How do we know that an old god is any different than an archdemon?

Perhaps the taint is just a jolt to wake them up and connect with the Darkspawn. Or perhaps they created the taint to begin with.

Flemeth did refer to the Archdemon as the "Core of the taint"

[whykikyouwhy]

Rifneno wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

Considering said being then went on a crusade to destroy the empire which worshipped the old gods... well, that would be an odd thing for an old god to do.

Odder than telling his devoted followers to do something that would lead them to a corruption that makes the bubonic plague look like a day at the beach? In fact, it may play into a greater scheme. The reason Andraste was able to bring down the Imperium is because 200 years of Blight, caused directly by Dumat in more ways than one, had already brought it to its knees. Or there's the simpler explanation... an OGB may very well not have a memory of its former life as a Tevinter dragongod. If Morrigan was telling the truth, this is almost certainly the case. She said she'd raise the child a certain way, but if it had its full memory and personality of lives past then there'd be no "raising" it.

One possibility could be that in order to ascend to a new level of divinity, and create a new pantheon or new order, Andraste-Dumat (for lack of a better way to refer to the potential old god reborn) would have to vanquish all traces of the old ways. Take down the old gods, undermine their worship, and then replace all of that adoration/faith/fear with his/herself. Become a 'new' god - but the reality is that it's an old god with a new face. Same core entity, but with a spit polish. And no competition.

Sort of like Zeus taking down the Titans, just under a different form/guise.

[B3NGU1N]

I think that the Maker is actually a very powerful demon, thats why none or the spirits or demons go near the black city.

In terms of Andraste, I'm not sure what to make of her. On one hand she could just be a religous nut who had a vision and took it as gospel, but the Dumat theory is also very plausible.

[tmp7704]

Rifneno wrote...

Odder than telling his devoted followers to do something that would lead them to a corruption that makes the bubonic plague look like a day at the beach?

Yes.

Plagues tend to make the believers pray more. Running an effective advert campaign for another religion, on the other hand... well.

Or there's the simpler explanation... an OGB may very well not have a memory of its former life as a Tevinter dragongod.

Note, that's presuming gods actually have minds working like these of humans, which doesn't have to be the case at all.  I must say the concept of a god being unaware of who they are doesn't really strike me as very god-like.

Regarding Morrigan and her plans to "raise" said god... well, we don't know how plausible these plans really are. Or whether her plans are anything like what she said they were, for this matter.

[tmp7704]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Become a 'new' god - but the reality is that it's an old god with a new face. Same core entity, but with a spit polish. And no competition.

Sort of like Zeus taking down the Titans, just under a different form/guise.

There was no competition to speak of that would need to be removed though, was there? No one paid mind to the elven gods, the Maker was long forgotten.. the old gods already were the established pantheon. The analogy is more like Zeus taking down the Olympians rather than the Titans... himself included.

[Sepewrath]

Well you have to keep in mind that things like "God of Silence" is a title created by man, for characteristics they envisioned about this god. I doubt these gods had a Comic Con panel and he never said a word, so they started calling him the God of Silence lol. And the plural on the creators could refer to the supposed seven dragons or as someone else said gods in general. The whole Dread Wolf thing is just another story, for the Elves to give face to the events that shaped their existence. And that whole makers rules against magic, those are just convenient rules to use when your rallying support against your oppressors who happen to use magic.

[Rifneno]

tmp7704 wrote...

Yes.

Plagues tend to make the believers pray more. Running an effective advert campaign for another religion, on the other hand... well.

This plague didn't. They knew that Dumat was the archdemon devastating their lands. Granted, that billionfolded the worship of the other dragongods whose Tevinter was begging for help, but being trapped themselves they couldn't do anything even if they wanted to.

Besides, who's to say that believers and faith are Dumat's goal? He may have wanted to sow chaos and war for whatever reason, and if that's the case he did an excellent job. As evil as Tevinter was, they were so immensely powerful that chaos and war couldn't reign for long because any resistance would be put down with relative ease. It took 200 years of the most potent Blight ever to decimate Tevinter badly enough for Andraste's armies to be able to defeat them. We've had a world divided ever since.

Note, that's presuming gods actually have minds working like these of humans, which doesn't have to be the case at all.  I must say the concept of a god being unaware of who they are doesn't really strike me as very god-like.

Regarding Morrigan and her plans to "raise" said god... well, we don't know how plausible these plans really are. Or whether her plans are anything like what she said they were, for this matter.

In most ancient religions gods were simply extremely powerful beings. The idea of a deity being so far "beyond" humanity is a more modern thing. One of the most noteworthy parts of Norse mythology has the god Baldr being slain by a piece of frickin' mistletoe.

[Morroian]

Rifneno wrote...

miraclemight wrote...

Granted that Andraste was killed publically. Burned at the stake. Speared. Reduced to Ashes and so on. Fully dead.

Make sure you CC that memo to Corypheus. Flemeth too. Any archdemon not slain by a Grey Warden. Oh, and Commander Shepard.

And Leliana 

Modifié par Morroian, 28 juillet 2011 - 11:06 .

[Sepewrath]

Well some gods have more juice than others I guess lol. But gods have always been far above and beyond humans, I mean you got one guy carrying around the sun on back of a flying horse and chariot, if that's not far beyond human, I don't know what is. The actions of Dumat, seem so pointless for a god, minor manipulation is something anyone can do. Personally I think they got Reapers in my Dragon Age and Dumat was an Archdemon to begin with.

[Torax]

It should be mentioned. According to David Gaider. The Elven creation belief does not include their own gods. In fact the members of the "Pantheon" were born of the World. He also mentioned in that very same comparison of beliefs that it's unlikely that the Imperium would worship the same Gods of the Elves they hated. That the Magisters would have found the Elven Gods beneath them due to the contempt they had for the Elves. He stated that it could be possible that Old Gods point to the Forgotten Ones but that would put a strange contradiction in a few cases. Like The Dreadwolf being of both and so on. Regardless, neither the Imperium or the Dalish believe their Gods were "Creators". In fact you maybe just assume that when the Dalish say bless the Creators that it's the equivalent of thanking your ancestors. At least it's the feeling I have gotten from his comments. He even likened the Dalish to the Dwarves in a way. Especially in regards to their past compared to the belief of the Maker.

Furthermore, Gaider claims that while generally the beliefs would denounce each other. It's only Chantry that has openly said all other gods are false. Either way it's implicated and possible that the "Maker" didn't create the World, The Old Gods, Forgotten Ones or the Pantheon. Just that he created Mankind maybe? Finding a World and trying to shape it to his will. Separately of all the things that already existed there. It's been said that the Old Gods were separate of the Maker's Plans and were "not created". Nothing is truly clarified on purpose and in the end all the beliefs truly don't nullify each other. In fact the 2 oldest races have incomplete lore of their own past and creations. The Elven Pantheon belief far predates the cults of the Old Gods. Regardless Gaider basically pointed to that either way the "Good" gods that the Elves worshiped are not the Old Gods.

[tmp7704]

Rifneno wrote...

This plague didn't. They knew that Dumat was the archdemon devastating their lands. Granted, that billionfolded the worship of the other dragongods whose Tevinter was begging for help, but being trapped themselves they couldn't do anything even if they wanted to.

I'd say this shows the plague did in fact result in extra religious fervour. Apparently it wasn't enough to help the trapped old gods (if that was the goal to begin with) but that doesn't eliminate the existence of "plague = moar prayers" effect.

In most ancient religions gods were simply extremely powerful beings. The idea of a deity being so far "beyond" humanity is a more modern thing. One of the most noteworthy parts of Norse mythology has the god Baldr being slain by a piece of frickin' mistletoe.

Yes, and having a better developed self-awareness is part of my concept of such "extremely powerful being"  (i expect the power of both "body" and "mind" and see no reason why it should be limited to just one area)  The Norse myths are plain weird -- let's not forget the ship built from the toenails, e.g.

[Blacklash93]

As to who the maker is in the elven myths, I'll post this:

Long ago, when time itself was young, the only things in existence were the sun and the land. The sun, curious about the land, bowed his head close to her body, and Elgar'nan was born in the place where they touched. The sun and the land loved Elgar'nan greatly, for he was beautiful and clever. As a gift to Elgar'nan, the land brought forth great birds and beasts of sky and forest, and all manner of wonderful green things. Elgar'nan loved his mother's gifts and praised them highly and walked amongst them often.

My theory:

The Sun = The Maker
The Earth = The Stone

Modifié par Blacklash93, 28 juillet 2011 - 11:41 .

[MisanthropePrime]

B3NGU1N wrote...

I think that the Maker is actually a very powerful demon, thats why none or the spirits or demons go near the black city.

In terms of Andraste, I'm not sure what to make of her. On one hand she could just be a religous nut who had a vision and took it as gospel, but the Dumat theory is also very plausible.

The difference between spirits and demons is pretty fluid, isn't it? Justice became Vengeance. Who knows, Fen'harel or any other spirit could've become corrupted into a demon over time.

[MichaelFinnegan]

MisanthropePrime wrote...

Okay, so, here's a theory of mine based off some stuff said by Corypheus

1. The "Golden City" was supposed to be home to the "Creators", plural, not "Creator" or "Maker"
2. The Old Gods, or at least, Dumat, goaded Corypheus and his magisters to go into the golden city
3. The golden city was black when they got there

It seems like Corypheus was essentially tricked to go into the city. Now
who, in the DA setting, is famous for trickery? Fen'harel, of course,
the Dread Wolf of the elven pantheon, who could walk amongst the
Creators and Forgotten Ones and turn them against eachother. I think
this has something to do with the elven pantheon due to the multiple
creators, rather than one, singular maker. And personally, it strikes me
odd that the "god of silence" would trick the magisters into doing
this. As such, maybe Dumat was tricked by Fen'harel and he, in turn,
told Corypheus to go there?

I'm beginning to think that Fen'harel is/was the maker, actually. By instigating a war between the old gods and creators he gets THEM out of the way, and by creating a blight he neutralizes the power of "mortals" (humans- mostly tevinter at that time- elves and dwarves) and that allows him to reign supreme. It also explains why the maker has such prohibitions against magic: mages could theoretically reenter the black city and take him down.

Interesting theory. A few things though.

You assume that Fen'Harel tricked Dumat. I think though that the "truth" may be a bit more involved than that. Though it is true that, if Dumat did promise some of the magisters great power, he doesn't appear to have anticipated what would happen next.

Mages re-entering the Black City (as you put it) doesn't appear to be on the cards, unless you're assuming that the taint is no longer there. The thing with the Black City is that it no longer appears to be the seat of power - having been tainted, from what we know. So if Fen'Harel has to be stationed there, he/she must have means to counter the taint.

My own beliefs are that all of this will be explained without revealing anything about any of the deities (elven or human), unless they do turn out to be just spirits or demons from the Fade. But we'll see. The Golden City/Black City as another dimension (apparently impassable at present) is certainly intriguing, and I think we'll learn about the hows of it in later games.

[HTTP 404]

I do agree that the Dread Wolf is central to the DA plot. But I am unsure what that may be....OP's theory sounds good to me...but for some reason I doubt that it is the case.

[Torax]

HTTP 404 wrote...

I do agree that the Dread Wolf is central to the DA plot. But I am unsure what that may be....OP's theory sounds good to me...but for some reason I doubt that it is the case.

I kind of doubt he's central to the DA plot. It's just yet another absent figure from ages ago. That means that from that weak thought process that means the Dread Wolf is only as important as any dead figure head of thousands of years ago. In the end the story could go on without ever recognizing a being that for starters only pertains to one if the races' beliefs. Which also happens to be the race that is missing the most of their history and just filling the holes they are lacking as they've felt necessary.


p.s.,
King Maric supposedly disappeared at Sea if I recall correctly. That would make him about as important as anyone else just considered missing and untouched in Origins & DA2...

Modifié par Torax, 29 juillet 2011 - 04:18 .

[MichaelFinnegan]

I just had a pretty weird theory about the Black City. I hesitate to say it out loud, though. Oh, well. What the heck. (Feel free to mock me on this one.)

It is my belief that every point of Thedas, and beyond, has access to the Fade, and every such point of one "world," "dimension," whatever is veiled (literallly concealed) from the other. There are some points where there is direct access (wherever the Veil is torn), and other points where the access is indirect (via subconscious dreamworld, lyrium, etc). So, if the world of Thedas and beyond is actually a sphere, then the Fade must be a sphere as well, based on this assumption.

What is the one point of a sphere that is equidistant from all points on its surface? It must be the centre. Now taking the similarity between the "real" world an the Fade further, we do have such corresponding "centre" points in both. For Thedas (for lack of a better word) it is its centre (underground). And for the Fade it is the black form hovering that is supposedly equidistant from every point within it.

But what could this really mean?

Well, we do know that non-mages enter the Fade when they dream (subconscious state) and mages can in their conscious state (assisted by lyrium). So, assisted or unassisted, everyone has access to the Fade.

Or do they?

Dwarves living underground don't. They don't go to the Fade when they dream. So, whatever it is that should represent them (the underground world) in the Fade might somewhat be more faded than usual in the Fade (no pun intended). Nay, inaccessible. And, yes, the black form in the Fade does fit this description - at least somewhat, in my mind at least.

This I think means that one cannot tap into the subconscious representationof the underworld/underground within the Fade,  which I take to mean the Black City, what I started off trying to form a theory for.

Now, was this always the case? It doesn't appear to be. The Primeval Thaig seems to suggest dwarven mages. So, at some point in the past, this must have changed. One could interpret this to mean going from some sort of Golden City to the Black City, but I guess that would be going too far. Right?

[Torax]

Nothing in the Primeval Thaig hints at Dwarven Mages. The only thing that Thaig proved was that it was so old that it didn't match Bartrend's beliefs on dwarves worshiping their Paragons. The Dwarves are missing a lot of their history, from stealing, selective editing, warring houses for power and so on. So it doesn't even say much if it doesn't match the current picture that is Dwarves now. Should also note that it is located near Kirkwall and both the Imperium and the Dwarves had a long standing arrangement. They traded with each other for ages. The Dwarves have always had an eye for business and odds are started to work with the Humans as soon as they arrived on Thedas. Which could be as old as the Thaig in question.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Yes, perhaps. But, still, the rest of it. Doesn't it make you wonder? Any thoughts on it?