72 réponses à ce sujet

[Torax]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

Yes, perhaps. But, still, the rest of it. Doesn't it make you wonder? Any thoughts on it?

2 flaws to your logic.

1. The Fade IS NOT constant. This is actually something that is touched on by Justice in Awakening. See the spirits make the fade into whatever they want. The very islands you are walking through in the Fade are willed into being by the spirits. So actually the only constant (assuming it is even constant) is the Black City. The rest is just created at will. The spirits even create the dreams for the people who are dreaming in the fade. So it can't have a tie to Thedas in that sense at all. There isn't a single point that equal the other. Besides the minds of the mortals anyway.

Edited to add.

As been confirmed via lore. The Dwarves evolved to or were created separeate of the fade and infact their proximity for ages to the Lyrium underground made them immune to it. They very well could have been earthen and made as servents thousands of years ago to a being of some kind. Much like the Elves they are ancient in history and have lost most of the knowledge they had. It's also possible the Maker & his spirits have nothing to do with the Origins of both the Elves & the Dwarves. That they existed before the Maker opted to create spirits and the demons. Just 1 race evolved to use Magic and one didn't due to being under ground  while the other populated the above natural world.

Modifié par Torax, 29 juillet 2011 - 04:40 .

[MichaelFinnegan]

Torax wrote...

2 flaws to your logic.

1. The Fade IS NOT constant. This is actually something that is touched on by Justice in Awakening. See the spirits make the fade into whatever they want. The very islands you are walking through in the Fade are willed into being by the spirits. So actually the only constant (assuming it is even constant) is the Black City. The rest is just created at will. The spirits even create the dreams for the people who are dreaming in the fade. So it can't have a tie to Thedas in that sense at all. There isn't a single point that equal the other. Besides the minds of the mortals anyway.

I haven't played Awakening, and many of the DLCs, even for Origins.

But, ah, well. You're right about things within the Fade being everchanging. Attempts by the Tevinter magisters to map the Fade in detail have always proven to be unsuccessful for this very reason (I remember reading that somewhere).

Still, thinking more on it, I wasn't so much referring to the exact "contents" of both worlds, but to their "boundaries," their access points as such - I don't know really if they're one-to-one, but the Veil appears to stretch all the way in Thedas. I might be heavily mistaken if this actually means every "exit" point in Thedas has a unique "entry" point in the Fade. But such is what I believe.

Edited to add.

As been confirmed via lore. The Dwarves evolved to or were created separeate of the fade and infact their proximity for ages to the Lyrium underground made them immune to it. They very well could have been earthen and made as servents thousands of years ago to a being of some kind. Much like the Elves they are ancient in history and have lost most of the knowledge they had. It's also possible the Maker & his spirits have nothing to do with the Origins of both the Elves & the Dwarves. That they existed before the Maker opted to create spirits and the demons. Just 1 race evolved to use Magic and one didn't due to being under ground  while the other populated the above natural world.

Dwarves becoming "immune" to the Fade because of proximity to lyrium is actually not true. I have it on good authority here:
http://social.biowar...383900/4#385109

The logic is simply this: Dwarves don't go to the Fade,
1. so they're more resistant to the effects of lyrium compared to other races
2. so they're more resistant to magic compared to other races

Their reasons for not entering the Fade is actually unknown. And a very good mystery, if you ask me. One I found gets rarely discussed.

How Thedas, the Fade, etc, and their inhabitants came to be is entirely beside the point, I think, even to the DA story. I always assumed we could deduce things based on whatever happened next or much further down the line.

[Torax]

Nothing in what Gaider stated disproved my saying they evolved or were engineered to not enter it. I even implied that it is possible both the Elves and Dwarves predate the concept of the Fade and the Spirits for all we know. That the Maker and his Humans are a newer thing. Just somehow the Elves evolved to use magic like Humans did meanwhile the dwarves did not. I'd liken it closer to Dwarves being engineered to be immune. Alas bioware's hints in other games of engineered species for certain tasks. For examples Jolee Bindo's belief that Kashyyk was a planet engineered for Gardening with the Wookiee as their Engineered Gardeners. Meanwhile in ME universe it was species that were remodeled to be servants.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Torax wrote...

Nothing in what Gaider stated disproved my saying they evolved or were engineered to not enter it.

That actually has been deliberately kept a mystery. And I've found it very hard to speculate on what it could be - the context, events, etc. are all mostly missing.

But the thing is, the dwarves not going to the Fade when they dream has got nothing to do whatsoever with the lyrium they mine. That was mostly what I wanted to point out by Gaider's reply.

I even implied that it is possible both the Elves and Dwarves predate the concept of the Fade and the Spirits for all we know. That the Maker and his Humans are a newer thing. Just somehow the Elves evolved to use magic like Humans did meanwhile the dwarves did not. I'd liken it closer to Dwarves being engineered to be immune. Alas bioware's hints in other games of engineered species for certain tasks. For examples Jolee Bindo's belief that Kashyyk was a planet engineered for Gardening with the Wookiee as their Engineered Gardeners. Meanwhile in ME universe it was species that were remodeled to be servants.

That could be true. Dwarves could be engineered. And, in any case, I find the histories of dwarves and elves fascinating - there is first class mystery in both their pasts.

Still, my mind wanders toward the Fade and its relation to Thedas. How things map to each other, and how everything seems to be linked with the subconscious or lyrium-induced mind. Thinking hard on it, I'm finding it very difficult to fault my theory at this point. Seems like I'm missing something obvious, but I can't point my finger on it.

Maybe I should start a new thread for this. What I wanted to say has got nothing to do with "The identity of the maker." It seems out of context.

In fact, I'll do so right away.

[Arokel]

I have been considering the "Fen'harel is the Maker" theory for some time as well. The evidenceis compelling. If Fen'harel is the Maker that would mean the Forgotten Ones are the Old Gods. That leaves us with questions of who are the Creators? If the Golden City was already Blackened when the Magisters arrived who drove off the Creators? Where did they go? This last one is a bit of a stretch but did Morrigan's Eluvian take her to where the Creators are?

Personally I have no idea. I am seeing some good ideas on here though. Keep brainstorming!

Another theory I like (for its sheer silliness) is that Sandal is the Maker!

[Torax]

Now lets say the World when it was formed by some sort of beings or an idea of that type. They needed servants to help them create it. It's possible that some would have filled a role of some kind. All theory with nothing to back such a claim.

Dwarves were the earthen type used to help shape the ground and maintain stability and possibly even build great under ground monuments to their creators since lost and said structures just evolved into being their cities. Since losing that history they translated a worship of creatures like them (Earthen) into being well their ancestors.

The Elves were above ground and were the tenders to the nature and creatures of the wild. This eventually had them growing an infinity to the nature and possible mutated over time to an affinity to magic. Not of earthen instead of nature in some way.

The only other race truly explained is the Qunari. Possibly a form of guard or protectors of their creations that eventually also lost their way. Overtime the evolved the original structure there were commanded to follow into becoming the Qun as we know it. Since Qunari is just a member of the Qun and not their actual race. The idea of them as engineered for Guard is also based on their size, strength, ability to survive long times without food or water and so on. The perfect soldiers.

p.s. Dwarves, Qunari and the Dalish all use a cast like system. Why the theory could hold water or just being blowing it out of my arse.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Fen'harel was always the likely suspect for the identity of "the Maker".

Likewise for a certain trickster witch we meet early on in both games.

[Arokel]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Fen'harel was always the likely suspect for the identity of "the Maker".

Likewise for a certain trickster witch we meet early on in both games.

An excellent point about Flemeth. She is indeed a trickster. I am still not sure about Flemeth. She is incredibly powerful and incredibly ancient. I suspect that she is far older than even the oldest stories about her would indicate. She is capable of regenerating herself (apparently to full power) from the tiniest fragment of her soul. She doesn't seem to emit "the call" which may eliminate her as an Old God. In the end I think we have much to learb about the being we call Flemeth.

[HTTP 404]

Torax wrote...

HTTP 404 wrote...

I do agree that the Dread Wolf is central to the DA plot. But I am unsure what that may be....OP's theory sounds good to me...but for some reason I doubt that it is the case.

I kind of doubt he's central to the DA plot. It's just yet another absent figure from ages ago. That means that from that weak thought process that means the Dread Wolf is only as important as any dead figure head of thousands of years ago. In the end the story could go on without ever recognizing a being that for starters only pertains to one if the races' beliefs. Which also happens to be the race that is missing the most of their history and just filling the holes they are lacking as they've felt necessary.


p.s.,
King Maric supposedly disappeared at Sea if I recall correctly. That would make him about as important as anyone else just considered missing and untouched in Origins & DA2...

haha, you are funny.  weak thought process.....oh man.  Well my weak thinking abilities disagree.   stop being so serious, its a freakin game, leave me to my speculations, no one has a steriod strong brain like yours.

p.s. you suck (an ode to your p.s.ing)

Modifié par HTTP 404, 29 juillet 2011 - 06:51 .

[elikal71]

There are many interesting theories on this matter. I have made similar theories.

My instincts however tell me something else. I fear, Bioware has no big plan at all. They just made some conspiracy-like pastiches, like Lovecraft myth and whatnot and mixed it all to some eerie sounding story, but in truth they have't made up a real backstory at all. I know, that sounds like a huge letdown, and I am sure we may hear a solution sometime. But I would not bet on it. Maybe we never hear what was "real", simply because a) they just don't know and they want to keep the suspense endlessly.

Also, back in the Baldurs Gate days and also in KOTOR, it was quite clear that Bioware has a relatively conventional moral. It usually all follows quite closely the Christian moral of good and evil. Such a complicated story of so many levels isn't anything Bioware has ever presented so far. Usually what is evil and good is quite plain relatively soon. Yeah, there may be some twists, but good is good and evil is evil in Bioware games, usually. I HOPE I am wrong, but I fear we who hope for intricate conspiracies are going to be disappointed.

[MisanthropePrime]

elikal71 wrote...

There are many interesting theories on this matter. I have made similar theories.

My instincts however tell me something else. I fear, Bioware has no big plan at all. They just made some conspiracy-like pastiches, like Lovecraft myth and whatnot and mixed it all to some eerie sounding story, but in truth they have't made up a real backstory at all. I know, that sounds like a huge letdown, and I am sure we may hear a solution sometime. But I would not bet on it. Maybe we never hear what was "real", simply because a) they just don't know and they want to keep the suspense endlessly.

Also, back in the Baldurs Gate days and also in KOTOR, it was quite clear that Bioware has a relatively conventional moral. It usually all follows quite closely the Christian moral of good and evil. Such a complicated story of so many levels isn't anything Bioware has ever presented so far. Usually what is evil and good is quite plain relatively soon. Yeah, there may be some twists, but good is good and evil is evil in Bioware games, usually. I HOPE I am wrong, but I fear we who hope for intricate conspiracies are going to be disappointed.

Most GAMES back then had rather simple morals. The modern era, where plenty of branching plots can be put on a game, is decidedly more morally ambiguous and BW is focusing on that.

[Recycled Human]

They've built up flemeth too much, they know exactly what/who she is and in the event that she is the dread wolf (or any number of other important figures) it would indeed be integral to the story.

Just throwing it out there in case no one mentioned it. It has been said that dumat convinced the ancient tevinter magister to enter the fade embodied and reach the golden (possibly already blackened) city. However, all that was ever claimed about the old gods was that they tought man magic (I believe). It stands to reason if Fen'harel tricked the elven creators and the forgotten ones into a trap then dumat wasn't acting under his own accord when he told the tevinter magister to seek the golden city.

Cory made mention to the city already being black when they arrived but what was that quote exactly? Also consider he was a bit incoherent at the time. Perhaps the details were skewed or we didn't hear the whole story.

Finally, wasn't it mentioned that people used to see the golden city when they entered the fade? If a golden city existed and it was already blackened when dumat's diciples arrived then that would mean the old gods =/= the forgotten ones. I think. XD

And just for a bit more food for thought, we've only heard from dumat's diciple it stands to reason that the other old gods were just as active at the same time. It's not like they took turns being old gods, it was a pantheon.

Finally, the how long has the maker been silent? Is it at all possible he was locked away into heaven with all the other deities? Is it possible he tricked andraste into thinking she heard the voice of the maker? Anyway, my suspicions are that flemeth and Fen'harel are tied together somehow...

Sorry for the mishmash of incoherent theories XD but I do love the amount of lore tucked away in this series! I can't wait to hear the whole story.

[jamesp81]

Intriguing OP, but I don't buy it.

Personally, when it comes to the elven pantheon and the information gleaned from Legacy, I've pretty well concluded that elven theology is mostly, well, wrong. The Chantry seems to have a better handle on these issues than the elves or the dwarves, although I suspect they haven't got every detail right either.

The Dread Wolf is probably real, however. Maybe we'll get to meet him in DA3. I'm kind of getting the idea that since he seems to have it in for anything of a god-like persuasion that he may have been one of the instigators to push the Tevinter magisters into tearing open the veil and corrupting the golden city.  It wouldn't be out of character with how he behaved towards the forgotten ones and the elven gods.

I also suspect the Dread Wolf and the Maker aren't on nice terms. The DW, again, seems to be waging this personal crusade against anything godlike. Apparently, he failed to lock away Dumat as he did other godlike beings. It's also not inconceivable he may have manipulated the tevinter magisters into tearing open the fade as part of his campaign against the godlike. You put all that together and all of a sudden the DW wears the blame for creating the conditions that gave rise to the first archdemon. The Maker would....probably not take that very well.

Modifié par jamesp81, 01 août 2011 - 02:00 .

[Torax]

James you can't have it both ways. You can't say the Elves have it all wrong and yet also state that the Dread Wolf is real. They are the ONLY race that acknowledge him as real. There is no Dread Wolf to either the Chantry or Tevinter. So if the Elves are wrong then so are you to say the Dread Wolf is "probably" real. You can't have it both ways. To the Elves the only one that came out of the war between the Pantheon and the Forgotten Ones was the Dread Wolf by betraying both sides. So even by that logic since even Gaider set out to prove that none of the beliefs override each other? Then why can you claim one side is wrong with NO shred of proof to say so. Especially if you want to write off any of their lore that just doesn't fit for you. Which is all but 1 being. They had many in the Pantheon and while less were in the Forgotten Ones? That doesn't diminish it.

Edited to add.

Further more. If you want the Dreadwolf to be real and if we generally consider the Old Gods to be real since they became the Arch Demons? Well the Dreadwolf is a possible link to why the Old Gods were burried under ground. Does that mean the Maker and the Dread Wolf are one and the same? Not necessarily. But if the Dread Wolf is real to you? Then so are the Forgotten ones and the Pantheon. If the Forgotten Ones are real then they are likely the Old Gods since they were trapped into the Abyss. The Pantheon was trapped in the sky. The Pantheon being trapped could possiblly explain the absence of the Maker btw.

Modifié par Torax, 01 août 2011 - 02:10 .

[jamesp81]

Torax wrote...

James you can't have it both ways. You can't say the Elves have it all wrong and yet also state that the Dread Wolf is real. They are the ONLY race that acknowledge him as real. There is no Dread Wolf to either the Chantry or Tevinter. So if the Elves are wrong then so are you to say the Dread Wolf is "probably" real. You can't have it both ways. To the Elves the only one that came out of the war between the Pantheon and the Forgotten Ones was the Dread Wolf by betraying both sides. So even by that logic since even Gaider set out to prove that none of the beliefs override each other? Then why can you claim one side is wrong with NO shred of proof to say so. Especially if you want to write off any of their lore that just doesn't fit for you. Which is all but 1 being. They had many in the Pantheon and while less were in the Forgotten Ones? That doesn't diminish it.

Edited to add.

Further more. If you want the Dreadwolf to be real and if we generally consider the Old Gods to be real since they became the Arch Demons? Well the Dreadwolf is a possible link to why the Old Gods were burried under ground. Does that mean the Maker and the Dread Wolf are one and the same? Not necessarily. But if the Dread Wolf is real to you? Then so are the Forgotten ones and the Pantheon. If the Forgotten Ones are real then they are likely the Old Gods since they were trapped into the Abyss. The Pantheon was trapped in the sky. The Pantheon being trapped could possiblly explain the absence of the Maker btw.

Yeah, actually I can have it both ways

The existence of one godlike being does not refute the existence of another.  The elves have some things right; they've got a LOT of things wrong.  The Chantry is in kind of the same position, although I think they're hitting a lot closer to the mark on some of this stuff (in that light it's really too bad the templars are a buch of bastards I'm going to have to wage total war against).  One place where they're blind, though, is they assume that the only godlike being in existence is the one they worship.  This is probably not the case; almost certainly not, considering that the first archdemon was, itself, an old god (or was he a "forgotten one", I get those two mixed up).

Also, the Pantheon being trapped probably is related to the whole "the maker abandoned humanity" thing.

But if the Dread Wolf is real to you? Then so are the Forgotten ones and the Pantheon.

Not particularly relevant.  Again, the existence of one godlike being does not refute the existence of others.  The elves don't believe in the maker; the chantry doesn't seem to believe the elven pantheon exists.  Odds are, they both do, at least in part, and are probably on familiar terms with one another.  Or really bad terms if my theories about the dread wolf are even anywhere close.

[Yalision]

The story in the DA universe has become overly convoluted. They keep throwing in little details and backdoors at every turn in the lore, and with an overabundance of possible speculation and few truly viable clue paths to follow, I have a feeling that when we learn some truth in any of the games it is going to be a mess.

Call me a cynic, but I was once a defender of this franchise through all of the changes brought on by the sequel and the party of bugs and glitches in the original's expansion. Color me unimpressed with how Bioware is approaching the mysteries within its own franchise's lore.

[Rez275]

I am seriously going to be amused if the Maker is a being similar to "God" from the berserk manga.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Dread Wolf is the only one of the gods between the Maker and all the Elven Gods that is said to be still active in the world so I expect that sometime in the future we'll see him. I don't think that every pantheon of gods needs to be the same as someone else's. I don't see why the Forgotten Ones and the Old Gods can't be the entirely separate beings for example. The stories about the them don't really have enough in common that stand out as being clear evidence of being the same beings. It's also very possible that the Dread Wolf is real and the other gods aren't. I don't think it has to be nessesarily an either or thing. I think that the Chantry's veiw of things for example is filled with a lot of correct ideas and a lot of wrong ones. Take the recent revelations from Legacy as one example. If Corphyeus' words meant that the Golden City was always the Black City, that makes the Chantry's view of that part of history completely  right about the Magisters breaching it and thus causing the Blight, but wrong about many of the important details.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 02 août 2011 - 07:15 .

[Rifneno]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The Dread Wolf is the only one of the gods between the Maker and all the Elven Gods that is said to be still active in the world so I expect that sometime in the future we'll see him. I don't think that every pantheon of gods needs to be the same as someone else's. I don't see why the Forgotten Ones and the Old Gods can't be the entirely separate beings for example. The stories about the them don't really have enough in common that stand out as being clear evidence of being the same beings. It's also very possible that the Dread Wolf is real and the other gods aren't. I don't think it has to be nessesarily an either or thing. I think that the Chantry's veiw of things for example is filled with a lot of correct ideas and a lot of wrong ones. Take the recent revelations from Legacy as one example. If Corphyeus' words meant that the Golden City was always the Black City, that makes the Chantry's view of that part of history completely  right about the Magisters breaching it and thus causing the Blight, but wrong about many of the important details.

You know, maybe we're looking at it intently. Maybe there's a simpler explanation. Maybe Thedas doesn't have any gods. People are idiots, they'll worship anything if they don't have anything better. Look at the dwarves. Those idiots worship rocks.

As for the Chantry, it matters a lot whether the city was already black. Someone that created a disease is more responsible than someone that just happened to spread the infection by catching it.

[MichaelFinnegan]

My personal take is that the existence of all these gods is actually quite irrelevant to the story being told. And the "myth" about the gods will be kept alive. We may not see anything that counters the beliefs or enforces them. It is something that will always be "just out there."

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Rifneno wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The Dread Wolf is the only one of the gods between the Maker and all the Elven Gods that is said to be still active in the world so I expect that sometime in the future we'll see him. I don't think that every pantheon of gods needs to be the same as someone else's. I don't see why the Forgotten Ones and the Old Gods can't be the entirely separate beings for example. The stories about the them don't really have enough in common that stand out as being clear evidence of being the same beings. It's also very possible that the Dread Wolf is real and the other gods aren't. I don't think it has to be nessesarily an either or thing. I think that the Chantry's veiw of things for example is filled with a lot of correct ideas and a lot of wrong ones. Take the recent revelations from Legacy as one example. If Corphyeus' words meant that the Golden City was always the Black City, that makes the Chantry's view of that part of history completely  right about the Magisters breaching it and thus causing the Blight, but wrong about many of the important details.

You know, maybe we're looking at it intently. Maybe there's a simpler explanation. Maybe Thedas doesn't have any gods. People are idiots, they'll worship anything if they don't have anything better. Look at the dwarves. Those idiots worship rocks.

As for the Chantry, it matters a lot whether the city was already black. Someone that created a disease is more responsible than someone that just happened to spread the infection by catching it.

My point was that it's possible to be right about some things and not others.

I don't know if Bioware had a decision in mind for whether the Maker or any of the other gods exist or not but even if they do I don't expect us to ever get a clear answer either way so I don't think it's relevant to the story either.

I'd not be surprised to see Fen'harel as an atagonist in the future, but if he does show up I'd expect he'd be treated like the Urn of Sacred Ashes.

[Virginian]

There is no Maker. The Maker is a lie.

[Rifneno]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

My point was that it's possible to be right about some things and not others.

I don't know if Bioware had a decision in mind for whether the Maker or any of the other gods exist or not but even if they do I don't expect us to ever get a clear answer either way so I don't think it's relevant to the story either.

I'd not be surprised to see Fen'harel as an atagonist in the future, but if he does show up I'd expect he'd be treated like the Urn of Sacred Ashes.

Ahh, yes, sorry, my mind tends to wander when we start theorycrafting.  I love the theorycrafting so much I can't contain myself to the theory at hand.  

Virginian wrote...

There is no Maker. The Maker is a lie.

I agree. I'm unsure about the other gods, but I'm 95% sure the Maker isn't real. For one, he seems to be all but omnipotent. Not just really really powerful like most pantheons but seriously all-powerful like the Judeo-Christian deity. He can't be a villain because he'd be unbeatable. He can't be an ally to the protagonist because he could fix every problem in the world just by thinking about it. So I can only conclude if he is real then we have been grossly misled about him, but more than likely he's a myth, like the Loch Ness Monster or a fix for DAO's memory leak perforation. Secondly, Flemeth sees pretty much everything. She's nearly omniscient. If there's a Maker, she'd know. She raised Morrigan to be like her in most regards and imparted some of her superwisdom. But Morrigan thinks the Maker story is retarded. Granted, that's pretty shaky by most people's standards, but I really think if he was real, Morrigan would have been taught.