273 réponses à ce sujet

[lazuli]

robarcool wrote...

lazuli wrote...

Arppis wrote...

Every class has it's weak points. Deal with it.

False.  What is the Soldier's weak point?

Exactly! Vanguards are left with only weapons (Shockwave, pull? No sir!) for usually any enemy (or group of enemies) outside the reachable area. So better level design or tweaks in charge can help that. Also, actually boss fights might not be very affected by charge usage (if the boss is in the reachable area at all) unless the level design is good, because you don't want to charge to the boss having ton of health, for he will simply shrug those 2-3 shotgun shots and then kill you. So for boss fights, level design will be equally important apart from bug fixing and tweaking charge.

At the risk of going off topic, it's not the Vanguard's Charge that needs revision (apart from the obvious glitch fixes).  It's the Soldier's Adrenaline Rush that needs revision.  It has an insanely short cooldown, a huge damage boost, and contributes greatly to the Soldier's self defense.  I'm fine with it having all of these effects, though perhaps some of them could be reduced or rebalanced.

But Adrenaline Rush really isn't even that overpowered if you're using anything other than the Mattock/Widow combination.  The AR + Revenant combo, for instance, doesn't strike me as overpowered.

[robarcool]

Fata Morgana wrote...

robarcool wrote...

Fata Morgana wrote...

The more I think about it (and the further I get into my Insanity playthrough), the more I just want Vanguard bugs to be fixed. It doesn't need any tweaks beyond that.

I also want to thank the person who suggested maxing out cryo ammo so that I could have my squad use cryo while I use inferno. That's a lot more helpful a combination than I gave it credit for.

Dude, have you reached collector ship? That pretorian was a real tough nut to crack (with my vanguard). I chose assault rifle training and it was a good decision over taking claymore.

Yes, I've gone all the way through to the suicide mission on Insanity now. I haven't had much of a problem with praetoreans since my first playthrough. They move slowly, it's just a matter of beating them down.

Though I do usually take assault rifles as my specialization, since I'm perfectly happy using the eviscerator as my shotgun. 

Looks like I am doing things differently than you are on collector ship. On horizon, the pretorian was alone, so I could deal with it. But on Collector ship, as I charge the two Collector drones first, I reach the farther side of the room, where there aren't any tall covers to hide from the pretorian and he cathes up and kills me. I don't exactly remember how I eventually defeated it, but it sure was a tough fight for me.

[robarcool]

lazuli wrote...

robarcool wrote...

lazuli wrote...

Arppis wrote...

Every class has it's weak points. Deal with it.

False.  What is the Soldier's weak point?

Exactly! Vanguards are left with only weapons (Shockwave, pull? No sir!) for usually any enemy (or group of enemies) outside the reachable area. So better level design or tweaks in charge can help that. Also, actually boss fights might not be very affected by charge usage (if the boss is in the reachable area at all) unless the level design is good, because you don't want to charge to the boss having ton of health, for he will simply shrug those 2-3 shotgun shots and then kill you. So for boss fights, level design will be equally important apart from bug fixing and tweaking charge.

At the risk of going off topic, it's not the Vanguard's Charge that needs revision (apart from the obvious glitch fixes).  It's the Soldier's Adrenaline Rush that needs revision.  It has an insanely short cooldown, a huge damage boost, and contributes greatly to the Soldier's self defense.  I'm fine with it having all of these effects, though perhaps some of them could be reduced or rebalanced.

But Adrenaline Rush really isn't even that overpowered if you're using anything other than the Mattock/Widow combination.  The AR + Revenant combo, for instance, doesn't strike me as overpowered.

Take these things to other threads please. BTW, you are sounding like if they can't balance charge, why don't just nerf the soldier! I don't find that a good thing. It is a great class and I prefer it subduing anything that comes before it!

Modifié par robarcool, 04 août 2011 - 04:53 .

[MELTOR13]

robarcool wrote...

MELTOR13 wrote...

I'm very confused by this thread. Charge is probably one of the more OP powers in the game and Vanguards are nigh indestructible once it's maxed. Why does it need revisions?

Tried on insanity bro? Try it and once you reach collector ship or the thresher maww level, then you tell how you find it OP! Or just experience one of those moments when charge bugs out on you and while you were hoping to kill that enemy with ony a sliver of health left, he kills you instead!

I've beaten it on Insanity. It's not hard, and Charge is still ridiculously powerful. And are you really complaining about not being able to Charge a freakin' Thresher Maw??

You do have other powers and *gasp* weapons, you know that right? 

[lazuli]

robarcool wrote...

lazuli wrote...

At the risk of going off topic, it's not the Vanguard's Charge that needs revision (apart from the obvious glitch fixes).  It's the Soldier's Adrenaline Rush that needs revision.  It has an insanely short cooldown, a huge damage boost, and contributes greatly to the Soldier's self defense.  I'm fine with it having all of these effects, though perhaps some of them could be reduced or rebalanced.

But Adrenaline Rush really isn't even that overpowered if you're using anything other than the Mattock/Widow combination.  The AR + Revenant combo, for instance, doesn't strike me as overpowered.

Take these things to other threads please. BTW, you are sounding like if they can't balance charge, why don't just nerf the soldier! I don't find that a good thing. It is a great class and I prefer it subduing anything that comes before it!

Make up your mind.  It's either okay to discuss Soldiers in this thread or it isn't.  I'm talking about how Soldiers compare to Vanguards, so I think it's relevant.

So let's not nerf the Soldier.  Let's nerf the Mattock.  It goes from being a great gun to being too good when combined with time dilation, as its fire rate is in no way impeded by time dilation effects.

[Fata Morgana]

robarcool wrote...

MELTOR13 wrote...

I'm very confused by this thread. Charge is probably one of the more OP powers in the game and Vanguards are nigh indestructible once it's maxed. Why does it need revisions?

Tried on insanity bro? Try it and once you reach collector ship or the thresher maww level, then you tell how you find it OP! Or just experience one of those moments when charge bugs out on you and while you were hoping to kill that enemy with ony a sliver of health left, he kills you instead!

Thresher maw level was easy on insanity. Or are you talking about how you can't use charge on the thresher maw itself?  That's hardly a flaw, you'd be insane to charge to the thresher maw.  Yeah, you have to take it down with weapons, the same as you do the human reaper. I don't see that as a flaw.

Honestly, the collector ship is ONLY difficult because of the cover bug (ie, being unable to target and charge enemies that you should be able to charge. Once you figure out how to work past the bug, you can dominate on the collector ship just like you do everywhere else.

[robarcool]

Fata Morgana wrote...

robarcool wrote...

MELTOR13 wrote...

I'm very confused by this thread. Charge is probably one of the more OP powers in the game and Vanguards are nigh indestructible once it's maxed. Why does it need revisions?

Tried on insanity bro? Try it and once you reach collector ship or the thresher maww level, then you tell how you find it OP! Or just experience one of those moments when charge bugs out on you and while you were hoping to kill that enemy with ony a sliver of health left, he kills you instead!

Thresher maw level was easy on insanity. Or are you talking about how you can't use charge on the thresher maw itself?  That's hardly a flaw, you'd be insane to charge to the thresher maw.  Yeah, you have to take it down with weapons, the same as you do the human reaper. I don't see that as a flaw.

Honestly, the collector ship is ONLY difficult because of the cover bug (ie, being unable to target and charge enemies that you should be able to charge. Once you figure out how to work past the bug, you can dominate on the collector ship just like you do everywhere else.

Well, on collector ship, the only point I got stuck for a while was the pretorian. I was fine elsewhere. As for Thresher maw, I would say that charging it is of course stupid, I didn't mean that. I even said in my previous post that charging a boss won't help unless the level deisgn is good. I meant that there could be some compensation for not being able to use charge, for other classes are able to use their powers and thus are better equipped.

[Fata Morgana]

robarcool wrote...

Fata Morgana wrote...

robarcool wrote...

MELTOR13 wrote...

I'm very confused by this thread. Charge is probably one of the more OP powers in the game and Vanguards are nigh indestructible once it's maxed. Why does it need revisions?

Tried on insanity bro? Try it and once you reach collector ship or the thresher maww level, then you tell how you find it OP! Or just experience one of those moments when charge bugs out on you and while you were hoping to kill that enemy with ony a sliver of health left, he kills you instead!

Thresher maw level was easy on insanity. Or are you talking about how you can't use charge on the thresher maw itself?  That's hardly a flaw, you'd be insane to charge to the thresher maw.  Yeah, you have to take it down with weapons, the same as you do the human reaper. I don't see that as a flaw.

Honestly, the collector ship is ONLY difficult because of the cover bug (ie, being unable to target and charge enemies that you should be able to charge. Once you figure out how to work past the bug, you can dominate on the collector ship just like you do everywhere else.

Well, on collector ship, the only point I got stuck for a while was the pretorian. I was fine elsewhere. As for Thresher maw, I would say that charging it is of course stupid, I didn't mean that. I even said in my previous post that charging a boss won't help unless the level deisgn is good. I meant that there could be some compensation for not being able to use charge, for other classes are able to use their powers and thus are better equipped.

You can still use inferno ammo with the Thresher maw. Pull and shockwave are skills I never put any points into, anyway, since I never use them in any situation.  Not sure what skill you would like them to add here.  Once you get your bonus skill you can add reave which is the perfect support skill for situations like the Thresher Maw. You may quibble that that should be available to Vanguard from the begininning, but I really don't see Vanguard as a class that you want to start out new on. It's a class designed for people who already know the game and want something more exciting and challenging. 

[Domdeegrpgc]

It think it's less a matter of the inherent high risk/high reward style of Charge and more a matter of lrn2playnub.

I've completed ME2 on Insanity more than three times with the Vanguard.

[JaegerBane]

MELTOR13 wrote...

robarcool wrote...

MELTOR13 wrote...

I'm very confused by this thread. Charge is probably one of the more OP powers in the game and Vanguards are nigh indestructible once it's maxed. Why does it need revisions?

Tried on insanity bro? Try it and once you reach collector ship or the thresher maww level, then you tell how you find it OP! Or just experience one of those moments when charge bugs out on you and while you were hoping to kill that enemy with ony a sliver of health left, he kills you instead!

I've beaten it on Insanity. It's not hard, and Charge is still ridiculously powerful. And are you really complaining about not being able to Charge a freakin' Thresher Maw??

You do have other powers and *gasp* weapons, you know that right? 

I've always been amused by this response. The fact that you can shoot your opponent doesn't somehow 'fix' issues with powers... particularly powers like Charge, which have nothing to do with doing direct damage. It's a bit like saying you can still walk if you've lost your hand - it's the definition of missing the point.

Charge is a cracking power, true, but if you honestly think it's overpowered, I'd question your understanding of the term. 'Overpowered' does not mean it serves a purpose. The issue is that it's so specialised that, in plenty of situations, it is of no use.

This wouldn't be such an issue if the vanguard had other powers to use that were effective.... but the don't. Which is precisely why the vanguard is such a one-trick pony.

[CajNatalie]

Since it's been mentioned a few times, but I've never been able to find an answer around... how do you beat the Charge bug during Collector platform battles (the one where you use Charge, the animation happens, but you stay right where you are)?

[JaegerBane]

Domdeegrpgc wrote...

It think it's less a matter of the inherent high risk/high reward style of Charge and more a matter of lrn2playnub.

I've completed ME2 on Insanity more than three times with the Vanguard.

Oh geez, what a hero. Careful dude, I don't think this forum can take any more awesome than a guy who can complete the game. 

Modifié par JaegerBane, 04 août 2011 - 05:30 .

[Fata Morgana]

CajNatalie wrote...

Since it's been mentioned a few times, but I've never been able to find an answer around... how do you beat the Charge bug during Collector platform battles (the one where you use Charge, the animation happens, but you stay right where you are)?

What you do is, just before you charge, you take a step out of cover, then pull up the power wheel before you're all the way out of cover. Then you target and charge.  That has never failed to work for me. 

[Yezdigerd]

I find it amazing that people consider non-chargeable enemies "poor level design". If there is one flaw in the ME2 power system it's the spamming of the classpower to the exclusion of all others.
that is the problem with the shared cooldown. one ability will be the best and you want to use it all the time, the exception will be when you can't. It would be interesting if mixings powers were a viable alternative.
but whatever, vanguard is the only class I can do repeat playthroughs on insanity with, all others bore me

[JaegerBane]

CajNatalie wrote...

Since it's been mentioned a few times, but I've never been able to find an answer around... how do you beat the Charge bug during Collector platform battles (the one where you use Charge, the animation happens, but you stay right where you are)?

Jump up onto the platform your enemies are on before charging.

[Tonymac]

Fata Morgana wrote...

*snipped*

You can still use inferno ammo with the Thresher maw. Pull and shockwave are skills I never put any points into, anyway, since I never use them in any situation.  Not sure what skill you would like them to add here.  Once you get your bonus skill you can add reave which is the perfect support skill for situations like the Thresher Maw. You may quibble that that should be available to Vanguard from the begininning, but I really don't see Vanguard as a class that you want to start out new on. It's a class designed for people who already know the game and want something more exciting and challenging. 

^ This is quite along the lines of what I was thinking. 

The trick with a vanguard is using your character like a precision tool - and this can only be done effectively when you are very good at the rest of the game - for most of us anyhow. 

Charge is some seriously amazing stuff, and can completely destroy enemies with speed and bone crunching force.  Knowing when to charge, and how to have your team set up is just as important as who/what/when/how to charge.

[Fata Morgana]

JaegerBane wrote...

MELTOR13 wrote...

robarcool wrote...

MELTOR13 wrote...

I'm very confused by this thread. Charge is probably one of the more OP powers in the game and Vanguards are nigh indestructible once it's maxed. Why does it need revisions?

Tried on insanity bro? Try it and once you reach collector ship or the thresher maww level, then you tell how you find it OP! Or just experience one of those moments when charge bugs out on you and while you were hoping to kill that enemy with ony a sliver of health left, he kills you instead!

I've beaten it on Insanity. It's not hard, and Charge is still ridiculously powerful. And are you really complaining about not being able to Charge a freakin' Thresher Maw??

You do have other powers and *gasp* weapons, you know that right? 

I've always been amused by this response. The fact that you can shoot your opponent doesn't somehow 'fix' issues with powers... particularly powers like Charge, which have nothing to do with doing direct damage. It's a bit like saying you can still walk if you've lost your hand - it's the definition of missing the point.

Charge is a cracking power, true, but if you honestly think it's overpowered, I'd question your understanding of the term. 'Overpowered' does not mean it serves a purpose. The issue is that it's so specialised that, in plenty of situations, it is of no use.

This wouldn't be such an issue if the vanguard had other powers to use that were effective.... but the don't. Which is precisely why the vanguard is such a one-trick pony.

You do understand that when you charge someone, it restores your shields, making it of much use in almost any situation?

I guess you mean it's specialized in that, if you are constantly behind cover and never lose sheilds or get low on health, then you'd never need an instant recharge on shields.

[JaegerBane]

Yezdigerd wrote...

I find it amazing that people consider non-chargeable enemies "poor level design". If there is one flaw in the ME2 power system it's the spamming of the classpower to the exclusion of all others.
that is the problem with the shared cooldown. one ability will be the best and you want to use it all the time, the exception will be when you can't. It would be interesting if mixings powers were a viable alternative.
but whatever, vanguard is the only class I can do repeat playthroughs on insanity with, all others bore me

This is a fair point, to be honest. I doubt Charge's shortcomings would be so blatant if the Vanguard actually had something else to use that was as worth the cooldown.

[Domdeegrpgc]

JaegerBane wrote...

Domdeegrpgc wrote...

It think it's less a matter of the inherent high risk/high reward style of Charge and more a matter of lrn2playnub.

I've completed ME2 on Insanity more than three times with the Vanguard.

Oh geez, what a hero. Careful dude, I don't think this forum can take any more awesome than a guy who can complete the game. 

I have to commend you good sir on your mastery of the strawman! 

There's nothing particularly heroic about completing the game on Insanity and I'd imagine I'm by far one of the worst players to do so on this site (as a caual stroll throught the strategy sections should illustrate that). I found the Vanguard to be the most challenging and exciting class to use, personally. You should notice my choice of words there - it IS challenging, but it's a long way from moderately difficult to fundamentally broken. It just requires a little more awareness of your surroundings and capabilites than the other classes. The Infiltrator, for example doesn't require anywhere near as much positional awareness. 

That, and, once you get the Geth shotgun Insanity becomes a joke anyway. 

Modifié par Domdeegrpgc, 04 août 2011 - 05:37 .

[JaegerBane]

Fata Morgana wrote...
You do understand that when you charge someone, it restores your shields, making it of much use in almost any situation?

And you do understand that you can't charge everyone, including the majority of the dangerous bosses? Which is kinda the point behind the whole debate?

Even when you can charge, charging forces you to abandon your position... which isn't necessarily a good thing, depending on what's going on. That's the whole point behind the issue. The power is such that it rigidly enforces a very narrow method of play that isn't tolerant of much customisation or changing circumstance.

That said, as someone has pointed out, if the classes had more powers, or powers that were more flexible, this wouldn't be such an issue.

Modifié par JaegerBane, 04 août 2011 - 05:40 .

[JaegerBane]

Domdeegrpgc wrote...
I have to commend you good sir on your mastery of the strawman! 

There's nothing particularly heroic about completing the game on Insanity and I'd imagine I'm by far one of the worst players to do so on this site (as a caual stroll throught the strategy sections should illustrate that). I found the Vanguard to be the most challenging and exciting class to use, personally. You should notice my choice of words there - it IS challenging, but it's a long way from moderately difficult to fundamentally broken. It just requires a little more awareness of your surroundings and capabilites than the other classes. The Infiltrator, for example doesn't require anywhere near as much positional awareness. 

That, and, once you get the Geth shotgun Insanity becomes a joke anyway. 

The point is that, even on insanity, you can complete the game using nothing but medigel and a Locust quite easily. The fact that you've 'completed it three times on insanity' has no relevance whatsoever to whether the power could do with a bit of modding.

And frankly, harping on about strawman after bringing up 'l2pnub' is irony indeed.

[MELTOR13]

This is hilarious. What are you guys going to complain about next? Singularity being useless? Combat Drone doesn't work on large bosses either, it totally needs to be fixed. Tactical Cloak doesn't allow me to stay invisible forever, so broken, it needs revision.

[didymos1120]

JaegerBane wrote...

And you do understand that you can't charge everyone, including the majority of the dangerous bosses?

The majority?  I don't think so.  I say it's exactly the opposite, in fact.  And to be clear: no, I don't consider stuff like the Reaper ME core or the Human-Reaper Larva to be particularly dangerous.  Even the Thresher Maw isn't, unless you're completely stupid about it.  How are you defining "boss" wrt ME2 anyway?

Modifié par didymos1120, 04 août 2011 - 05:50 .

[Fata Morgana]

JaegerBane wrote...

Fata Morgana wrote...
You do understand that when you charge someone, it restores your shields, making it of much use in almost any situation?

And you do understand that you can't charge everyone, including the majority of the dangerous bosses? Which is kinda the point behind the whole debate?

So you're saying that biotic charge is useless against enemies that you can't use it against? Bravo on your mastery of the obvious. 

The 'majority' of the dangerous bosses, meaning Thresher Maw, Oculus, and Human Reaper?  Thresher Maw and Oculus are also immune to cryo blast/ammo, overload, and any other skill that doesn't cut through armor.  Having some skills that don't work all the time is not a flaw. As for the Human reaper, you can still use charge to restore your shields, since there are plenty of collectors around to charge to.  This should be obvious, but you don't always use charge to jump to your main foe; more often, you use it to charge to that husk in the corner, then fire at your main foe, then charge to that husk in the other corner, etc.  This is the main technique behind taking down praetorians, which makes the one on Horizon so easy to kill that it almost seems like cheating. The one on the collector ship is a little bit harder because of the layout of the room, but you can still use biotic charge to use the battlefield to your advantage, and win the day. 

Even when you can charge, charging forces you to abandon your position... which isn't necessarily a good thing, depending on what's going on. That's the whole point behind the issue. The power is such that it rigidly enforces a very narrow method of play that isn't tolerant of much customisation or changing circumstance.

You can use charge to stay in front of the enemy that you're with, you don't have to charge across the battlefield if you don't want. The skill does require you to stay out of cover pretty much continuously, but when your sheilds keep getting refilled, cover hardly seems to be an issue. 

[Fata Morgana]

didymos1120 wrote...

JaegerBane wrote...

And you do understand that you can't charge everyone, including the majority of the dangerous bosses?

The majority?  I don't think so.  I say it's exactly the opposite, in fact.  And to be clear: no, I don't consider stuff like the Reaper ME core or the Human-Reaper Larva to be particularly dangerous.  Even the Thresher Maw isn't, unless you're completely stupid about it.  How are you defining "boss" wrt ME2 anyway?

yeah,, this bothered me, too... Baby reaper is an easy boss. Thresher Maw is an easy boss. Oculus is a little harder, but still fairly slow moving.  The hardest boss on insanity is probably Harbinger, and you can charge him all day long.