273 réponses à ce sujet

[robarcool]

lazuli wrote...

Quething wrote...
Vanguards should have the same versatility, and be able to be Samara, Grunt or Thane (right now we can only be Grunt, though I must say we're way more awesome at it than infiltrators are at being Legion).

I don't really understand where you're going with this.  Why an Infiltrator would ever want to mimic Legion's terrible build is beyond me.

I'd like for the focus to remain on close quarters combat for the Vanguard in ME3, not a return to the rather stale ME1 version.

Again, the change proposed in this thread is about making charge more versatile, that doesn't necessarily mean you should not or cannot use it the way you want.

[Fata Morgana]

Quething wrote...

Charging boxes wouldn't really help. To make the programming feasible, it'd have to be a destructive use that worked only to smash up destructible boxes (the way Throw, Shockwave, etc currently do). Thus, an area with no destructible cover is an area you can't charge to. Thus, since the game has no way to be sure that you haven't already destroyed all the destructible cover in an area.... it can't let you charge people on ledges because it still can't be sure you can charge back. So you're still going to have unreachable enemies against which your signature power is useless, like the thresher and human reaper..

So?  Charging destructible boxes still has strategic value.  I'm OK with some enemies being unreachable in game, that doesn't bother me very much.

[Autoclave]

Quite possible that this will be some sort of evolved version of charge.

[Clonedzero]

alot of people seem to forget that the vanguard is alot more than just a charge bot....

[LPPrince]

This is how you play a Vanguard-

Two Battles-Vanguard vs. Three YMIR Mechs

I love how one of the comments I got on the video was, "Ever heard of cover?"

My response- "I play a Vanguard, WE DON'T NEED COVER."

[Homey C-Dawg]

I'd like to be able to charge wherever I want like Vasir instead of needing a target, but still lock onto targets of they're there.

[Masquerade_Assassin]

What about a Vanguard biotic explosion after the charge? Like an Apprentice Phonix release? Would be a skill tree ability choice? Get in close with the charge (you'll have a biotic barriar around you) and when you get there you explode it off like a radial blast, damaging/ knocking back enemies.

Or

After the charge happens you auto cast a biotic barriar that only lasts 10 secs or less. It will protect you long enough to get some cover.

Or

A biotic ability called Biotic Reflect. This takes that phonix release ball of the Apprentice. Normally you'd just stand in place and form a biotic ball around you (by holding down the Y button you charge it up and hold it longer, up to 25 secs) It'll take bullets only (incinerates and cryo won't stop the attack but you'll take damage). Then after a few seconds you'll release it, making the bullets fly back towards enemies and if they are close enough, they'll take damage and fly back (equates to a sentinal tech armor blast). In combo with the Biotic charge, I'll give you more of that dominate feeling.

You have to realize that Vanguards are the "Incredible Hulks" of the biotic world. Adapts might have more biotic techinal skill, but Vanguards are soldiers with raw biotic abilities. They deliver a 1 hit punch, while skill adapts wear you down with biotic mastery.

[pablodurando]

Clonedzero wrote...

alot of people seem to forget that the vanguard is alot more than just a charge bot....

Charge is the only draw of the Vanguard, without charge the vanguard would hardly ever be used.

[Kabanya101]

LPPrince wrote...

This is how you play a Vanguard-

Two Battles-Vanguard vs. Three YMIR Mechs

I love how one of the comments I got on the video was, "Ever heard of cover?"

My response- "I play a Vanguard, WE DON'T NEED COVER."

That is why I completely resent the Vanguard class. Aside from Insanity, which it blows on, on any other difficulty you don't need cover. It becomes absolutely unstoppable, when the strongest class, Soldier, is left defenseless and weak.

The strength of the Soldier is nothing compared to what it use to be. No longer can wear heavy armor, since everyone practically gets the same amount of protection, and the extra health doesn't do anything, you constantly need to be in cover like every other class, except for the Vanguard. I call bull**** on that. Soldier is run and gun, they are the ones that take the brute of any fight, that is why I hate the Vanguard.

By the way, I have played half a playthrough as a Vanguard, and Charge is nowhere as good as people says it is. Soldier or Sentinel for life.

[lazuli]

Kabanya101 wrote...
That is why I completely resent the Vanguard class. Aside from Insanity, which it blows on, on any other difficulty you don't need cover. It becomes absolutely unstoppable, when the strongest class, Soldier, is left defenseless and weak.

The strength of the Soldier is nothing compared to what it use to be. No longer can wear heavy armor, since everyone practically gets the same amount of protection, and the extra health doesn't do anything, you constantly need to be in cover like every other class, except for the Vanguard. I call bull**** on that. Soldier is run and gun, they are the ones that take the brute of any fight, that is why I hate the Vanguard.

By the way, I have played half a playthrough as a Vanguard, and Charge is nowhere as good as people says it is. Soldier or Sentinel for life.

Vanguards have a steeper learning curve than other classes on Insanity difficulty.  Soldiers have seen a shift from defense (Immunity spam in ME1) to offense (the game-breaking Adrenaline Rush).  If you can't accept that, try the Assault Sentinel, another class besides the Vanguard that really has no need for cover.

By the way, it takes most people a lot more than half a playthrough to get the hang of Charge on Insanity.

[Someone With Mass]

I just want them to fix some of the few annoying Vanguard bugs.

[Darth_Ravor]

Charge is fine as it is.

[Praetor Knight]

Masquerade_Assassin wrote...

After the charge happens you auto cast a biotic barriar that only lasts 10 secs or less. It will protect you long enough to get some cover.

Charge already has that, so you'd like it to last longer?



The main thing for me, as others have already said, was the bugs with locking onto targets.

But I do wonder what is going to be added.

[renzpwns]

As long as Shephard dont say "Cant reach the target" to an enemy 10ft. away, I am all good.

[pablodurando]

renzpwns wrote...

As long as Shephard dont say "Cant reach the target" to an enemy 2-20ft. away, I am all good.

Fixed.

[Praetor Knight]

Rezources wrote...

Unfortunately, that leaves the Vanguard in a weird situation. Making other biotic powers more useful in ME3 on higher difficulties may leave the risky Charge Vanguard in the dust. If Shockwave actually did what it should do against enemies with defenses, why would I ever use Charge? It's a single target move that opens you up to a lot of trouble. It would be relegated to defensive use only when your shields are down. Alternatively, Improving other biotics like Shockwave in ME3 and giving them a long cooldown to compensate for how good they are would only lead to more Charge-only Vanguards like in ME2 (assuming Charge stays on the short cooldown it's on, which it should to remain viable on higher difficulties). There's no real middle-ground there.

I dunno, I can see how staggers can be longer, and have enemies draw from a larger pool of stagger animations, but Protections are fine as they are. From available gear in ME1, Protections make enough sense for enemies to have them, and Protections are easily defeated anyway, with all of the multipliers available to defeat them.

Unreachable enemies are more of a pet peeve than Protections resisting physics type attacks for me at least, and that's more a level design issue.



There are only two things that come to mind with improving Charge, so if bugs in targeting are unavoidable, then when we go to use the power and cannot lock on, and the power goes into a cooldown, that we at least get the recharge for the Barriers (I hope I'm explaining myself well enough here).

The second is being able to hit multiple enemies with a Charge, one after another. Although, I think this could be better tied with the Vanguard's equivalent of Overpower, then with Charge itself.

[Fata Morgana]

Rezources wrote...

Unfortunately, that leaves the Vanguard in a weird situation. Making other biotic powers more useful in ME3 on higher difficulties may leave the risky Charge Vanguard in the dust. If Shockwave actually did what it should do against enemies with defenses, why would I ever use Charge?

If Superman can take a bus, why would he ever fly?

[marshalleck]

rofl, wondering why a vanguard would ever use charge when they could use shockwave

two different tools for entirely different purposes. no wonder you think vanguard is risky and dies a lot

[The Spamming Troll]

Praetor Shepard wrote...

I dunno, I can see how staggers can be longer, and have enemies draw from a larger pool of stagger animations, but Protections are fine as they are. From available gear in ME1, Protections make enough sense for enemies to have them, and Protections are easily defeated anyway, with all of the multipliers available to defeat them.

Unreachable enemies are more of a pet peeve than Protections resisting physics type attacks for me at least, and that's more a level design issue.

protections arent bad on paper, but there should be limits on how effective protections are. i dont think defenses should simply trump abilities. whatll be the point in evolving abilities if they only cause staggers?

you not liking unreachable enemies is the same as adept players not liking enemy protections.  not locking with charge happens pretty rarely, atleast your aware of those locations by now. wiht the adept an entire setting is completely unenjoyable because of one small feature.

[RPGamer13]

On Insanity, I had to look up videos to learn how to use Charge effectively.  I wasn't getting anywhere trying to get to Jack and got stuck in the room with the YMIR on the other end of the room.  But I looked up a video, and while it didn't work that well for me like it did in the video, it did give me more ideas on how to survive better.

Clonedzero wrote...

alot of people seem to forget that the vanguard is alot more than just a charge bot....

Not in Mass Effect 2.  The only ability I really actively used was Charge.  Shockwave sucked horribly, and when enemies have shields pull doesn't work either.  They got rid of Warp and I think that was a bad idea, I would have liked Warp instead of Shockwave or even Pull. 

I also found Cryo Ammo useless when you needed to put points into Incendiary Ammo to unlock it and freezing enemies wasn't all that useful.  So, Cryo Ammo could have been replaced as well.  It also hurt that all abilities had the same cooldown after you used an ability so the entire game turned out to be a decision of which active ability do you want to use all the time.

[Praetor Knight]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

protections arent bad on paper, but there should be limits on how effective protections are. i dont think defenses should simply trump abilities. whatll be the point in evolving abilities if they only cause staggers?

you not liking unreachable enemies is the same as adept players not liking enemy protections.  not locking with charge happens pretty rarely, atleast your aware of those locations by now. wiht the adept an entire setting is completely unenjoyable because of one small feature.

I think my main concern is straight up ragdolling enemies through protections, which is why I mention staggers.

I've gotta look for the thread where I first read the idea, but I sorta like the idea of directional staggers and definitely longer staggers to be involved in ME3, especially the more I think about them.

So enemies can still be ragdolled without protection as we got in ME2, but I'd like to see Pull, for example, nudge a protected enemy towards Shepard, or Heavy Throw knock an enemy backwards or to its knees, so that it would take that enemy longer to recover from that Pull or Throw than in ME2.

But I think the enemies should not be completely vulnerable, with the quick cooldowns that are gonna be available.

And having that new layer with CCing protected enemies, could also help make different power evolutions feel more different and more useful, than in ME2, while keeping protections more or less the same.

RPGamer13 wrote...

I also found Cryo Ammo useless when you needed to put points into Incendiary Ammo to unlock it and freezing enemies wasn't all that useful.  So, Cryo Ammo could have been replaced as well.  It also hurt that all abilities had the same cooldown after you used an ability so the entire game turned out to be a decision of which active ability do you want to use all the time.

Cryo ammo is great against husks, I really like using Squad Cryo on my companions, and when frozen you can deal a good chunk more of damage and neutralize a good number of enemies, it's annoying when the fall behind cover, but that's not too bad. I keep Inferno for myself when I'm not husk blasting.

Modifié par Praetor Shepard, 31 juillet 2011 - 02:22 .

[robarcool]

LPPrince wrote...

This is how you play a Vanguard-

Two Battles-Vanguard vs. Three YMIR Mechs

I love how one of the comments I got on the video was, "Ever heard of cover?"

My response- "I play a Vanguard, WE DON'T NEED COVER."

Not downplaying you, but was that on insanity? I seemed to last a little too long in front of the mech after your charge finished and he started firing. I tried the same thing, but after I charged, mechs could kill me before charge was up again.

[robarcool]

Kabanya101 wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

This is how you play a Vanguard-

Two Battles-Vanguard vs. Three YMIR Mechs

I love how one of the comments I got on the video was, "Ever heard of cover?"

My response- "I play a Vanguard, WE DON'T NEED COVER."

That is why I completely resent the Vanguard class. Aside from Insanity, which it blows on, on any other difficulty you don't need cover. It becomes absolutely unstoppable, when the strongest class, Soldier, is left defenseless and weak.

The strength of the Soldier is nothing compared to what it use to be. No longer can wear heavy armor, since everyone practically gets the same amount of protection, and the extra health doesn't do anything, you constantly need to be in cover like every other class, except for the Vanguard. I call bull**** on that. Soldier is run and gun, they are the ones that take the brute of any fight, that is why I hate the Vanguard.

By the way, I have played half a playthrough as a Vanguard, and Charge is nowhere as good as people says it is. Soldier or Sentinel for life.

Dude, Vanguards may be biotic gods, but soldier is the God. One class to rule them all. I like Vanguard, but soldier has simply no match.