273 réponses à ce sujet

[lazuli]

AcidGlow wrote...

i personally dont have a problem with vanguard its the coolest class but my thought is weather a enemy is shielded or armored the sheer force of a vanguard's charge should send them flying like someone without any shield or armor

That would be awful.  Then you'd have a fully defended enemy knocked far away, well out of reach of your shotgun.  Boo.

[Arbalest7]

lazuli wrote...

AcidGlow wrote...

i personally dont have a problem with vanguard its the coolest class but my thought is weather a enemy is shielded or armored the sheer force of a vanguard's charge should send them flying like someone without any shield or armor

That would be awful.  Then you'd have a fully defended enemy knocked far away, well out of reach of your shotgun.  Boo.

Yeah Charge is really only viable on Hardcore/Insanity because everyone has protections. On Veteren and lower its just throw that puts you in harms way and has double the cooldown.

[robarcool]

Well, I also don't like the idea that enemies with protections should fly from the impact of charge. The point blank attack gives the double damage bonus to shotguns which is otherwise can't happen (unless you are lucky to get close without using charge!).

[snackrat]

Vanguard and Adept are the only classes I haven't enjoyed. Vanguard because it seems more short-ranged damage without aiming ( I HATE shotguns) rather than long-ranged, less damage for more accuracy, and because whenever I used the charge, the enemies weren't hurt altogether that much. I could have just punched them. I was then in the thicket of enemies without any long-distance cover, the shotgun reloaded slowly and did little damage and I was owned. My practiced accuracy with the sniper rifle and heavy pistol gets more (if you'll excuse the term) DPS than any close-ranged shotgun usage.

As for biotics, well, they had a whole host of abilities but they were all offensive, and only worked on unshielded, unarmoured, and (for the most part at least) unbarriered targets. Which is NOT MANY. At that point, you can usually kill an enemy by sneezing on it. Combine that with not having a barrier of your own, and not having ammo powers, I didn't know whether to make the extra ability Warp Ammo or Barrier. I felt I needed them both, and there was no way I'd use the whole host of offensive abilities provided in a regular battle.

[marshalleck]

Karsciyin wrote...

Vanguard and Adept are the only classes I haven't enjoyed. Vanguard because it seems more short-ranged damage without aiming ( I HATE shotguns) rather than long-ranged, less damage for more accuracy, and because whenever I used the charge, the enemies weren't hurt altogether that much. I could have just punched them. I was then in the thicket of enemies without any long-distance cover, the shotgun reloaded slowly and did little damage and I was owned. My practiced accuracy with the sniper rifle and heavy pistol gets more (if you'll excuse the term) DPS than any close-ranged shotgun usage.

charge isn't supposed to be used for damage by itself, and you should be aiming for the head with your shotgun

even on insanity it can almost one-shot kill most enemies. there's nothing wrong with shotgun damage

[robarcool]

marshalleck wrote...

Karsciyin wrote...

Vanguard and Adept are the only classes I haven't enjoyed. Vanguard because it seems more short-ranged damage without aiming ( I HATE shotguns) rather than long-ranged, less damage for more accuracy, and because whenever I used the charge, the enemies weren't hurt altogether that much. I could have just punched them. I was then in the thicket of enemies without any long-distance cover, the shotgun reloaded slowly and did little damage and I was owned. My practiced accuracy with the sniper rifle and heavy pistol gets more (if you'll excuse the term) DPS than any close-ranged shotgun usage.

charge isn't supposed to be used for damage by itself, and you should be aiming for the head with your shotgun

even on insanity it can almost one-shot kill most enemies. there's nothing wrong with shotgun damage

No. I disagree to one shot kills. Unless the enemy has taken a little amage already or your shotgun is at least upto 3rd upgrade, one shot kills are rare on insanity.

[ChyronBlue]

robarcool wrote...

As I said folks, it is powerful when it works, but when it doesn't, you are in for a blood smeared treat!

That is exactly how it should be. The Charge isn't a catch all ability. It is useful in some situations not all. Use wisely.

This is more of a complaint that it can't be spammed or work every single time.

Charge is ability that requires some thinking before using.

[marshalleck]

robarcool wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Karsciyin wrote...

Vanguard and Adept are the only classes I haven't enjoyed. Vanguard because it seems more short-ranged damage without aiming ( I HATE shotguns) rather than long-ranged, less damage for more accuracy, and because whenever I used the charge, the enemies weren't hurt altogether that much. I could have just punched them. I was then in the thicket of enemies without any long-distance cover, the shotgun reloaded slowly and did little damage and I was owned. My practiced accuracy with the sniper rifle and heavy pistol gets more (if you'll excuse the term) DPS than any close-ranged shotgun usage.

charge isn't supposed to be used for damage by itself, and you should be aiming for the head with your shotgun

even on insanity it can almost one-shot kill most enemies. there's nothing wrong with shotgun damage

No. I disagree to one shot kills. Unless the enemy has taken a little amage already or your shotgun is at least upto 3rd upgrade, one shot kills are rare on insanity.

claymore + ap/warp ammo + get the shotgun upgrades asap works wonders

Modifié par marshalleck, 04 août 2011 - 04:25 .

[robarcool]

marshalleck wrote...

robarcool wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Karsciyin wrote...

Vanguard and Adept are the only classes I haven't enjoyed. Vanguard because it seems more short-ranged damage without aiming ( I HATE shotguns) rather than long-ranged, less damage for more accuracy, and because whenever I used the charge, the enemies weren't hurt altogether that much. I could have just punched them. I was then in the thicket of enemies without any long-distance cover, the shotgun reloaded slowly and did little damage and I was owned. My practiced accuracy with the sniper rifle and heavy pistol gets more (if you'll excuse the term) DPS than any close-ranged shotgun usage.

charge isn't supposed to be used for damage by itself, and you should be aiming for the head with your shotgun

even on insanity it can almost one-shot kill most enemies. there's nothing wrong with shotgun damage

No. I disagree to one shot kills. Unless the enemy has taken a little amage already or your shotgun is at least upto 3rd upgrade, one shot kills are rare on insanity.

claymore + ap/warp ammo + get the shotgun upgrades asap works wonders

So, you do agree that upgrades are needed. Good. BTW, with a single upgrade, the Eviscerator can single shot vorchas with inferno ammo and they are the only frequent one shot kills I have seen on insanity (I mean an enemy with full health and shields). You can get a few one shot mercenary kills (those lowest tier blue suns), but that is not as often as the vorcha kill.

Modifié par robarcool, 04 août 2011 - 05:37 .

[robarcool]

ChyronBlue wrote...

robarcool wrote...

As I said folks, it is powerful when it works, but when it doesn't, you are in for a blood smeared treat!

That is exactly how it should be. The Charge isn't a catch all ability. It is useful in some situations not all. Use wisely.

This is more of a complaint that it can't be spammed or work every single time.

Charge is ability that requires some thinking before using.

Wow, so Shepard can't target the enemy standing 5 feet away, just because he is past the next door (not covered behind the door, just standing past the door) and you are comfortable with that?

[marshalleck]

robarcool wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

robarcool wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Karsciyin wrote...

Vanguard and Adept are the only classes I haven't enjoyed. Vanguard because it seems more short-ranged damage without aiming ( I HATE shotguns) rather than long-ranged, less damage for more accuracy, and because whenever I used the charge, the enemies weren't hurt altogether that much. I could have just punched them. I was then in the thicket of enemies without any long-distance cover, the shotgun reloaded slowly and did little damage and I was owned. My practiced accuracy with the sniper rifle and heavy pistol gets more (if you'll excuse the term) DPS than any close-ranged shotgun usage.

charge isn't supposed to be used for damage by itself, and you should be aiming for the head with your shotgun

even on insanity it can almost one-shot kill most enemies. there's nothing wrong with shotgun damage

No. I disagree to one shot kills. Unless the enemy has taken a little amage already or your shotgun is at least upto 3rd upgrade, one shot kills are rare on insanity.

claymore + ap/warp ammo + get the shotgun upgrades asap works wonders

So, you do agree that upgrades are needed. Good. BTW, with a single upgrade, the Eviscerator can single shot vorchas with inferno ammo and they are the only frequent one shot kills I have seen on insanity (I mean an enemy with full health and shields). You can get a few one shot mercenary kills (those lowest tier blue suns), but that is not as often as the vorcha kill.

Yes, you use shotgun upgrades. Of course. Just like any other class would pursue their weapon upgrades. Why does the distinction matter? It's not like anyone plays the game without getting upgrades.

Honestly this is kind of like saying charge (or any other power) sucks if you leave it at rank 1. Herp derp.

Modifié par marshalleck, 04 août 2011 - 06:06 .

[snackrat]

Maybe, but I'm talking in comparison to all the other powers not being upgraded either.

[Dexi]

robarcool wrote...

I have played as soldier (11 times) and infiltrator (once) and now playing as Vanguard. While the previous two classes could use their signature abilites (AR and TC respectively) whenever they want, charge is kind of hampered in usage. When it works, it is awesome. But you can't use it to break away from highly tense situations. Charge is also absolutely useless when all enemies are in the unreachable zones (by game design), say in the thresher maw level on Grunt's loaylty mission or the biotic walk on the suicide mission. So shouldn't they allow charge to be used whenever the player wants, rather than only when facing an enemy in the reachable zones? That too is at times not doable due to buggy locking system and often leads to death (I am talking about insanity).

And Tactical Cloak is useless against the Occulus... 
The Singularity is also useless against both the Tresher Maw and the Occulus. Not to mention some other bigger bosses. 
Same goes for the Combat Drone. 

The problem isn't with the ability but with the battle design...

[robarcool]

Dexi wrote...

robarcool wrote...

I have played as soldier (11 times) and infiltrator (once) and now playing as Vanguard. While the previous two classes could use their signature abilites (AR and TC respectively) whenever they want, charge is kind of hampered in usage. When it works, it is awesome. But you can't use it to break away from highly tense situations. Charge is also absolutely useless when all enemies are in the unreachable zones (by game design), say in the thresher maw level on Grunt's loaylty mission or the biotic walk on the suicide mission. So shouldn't they allow charge to be used whenever the player wants, rather than only when facing an enemy in the reachable zones? That too is at times not doable due to buggy locking system and often leads to death (I am talking about insanity).

And Tactical Cloak is useless against the Occulus... 
The Singularity is also useless against both the Tresher Maw and the Occulus. Not to mention some other bigger bosses. 
Same goes for the Combat Drone. 

The problem isn't with the ability but with the battle design...

What? Tactical cloak isn't useless against occulus. Here look this:
www.youtube.com/watch
I used it pretty comfortably!

Modifié par robarcool, 04 août 2011 - 02:24 .

[robarcool]

I do agree though that with better level design, charge can be made more effective.

[lazuli]

robarcool wrote...

I do agree though that with better level design, charge can be made more effective.

At the same time, I don't think it's the end of the world if the Vanguard can't use Charge against every opponent.  Still, it shouldn't be the case that come every boss fight the Vanguard turns into a bad Adept.

[JaegerBane]

lazuli wrote...

robarcool wrote...

I do agree though that with better level design, charge can be made more effective.

At the same time, I don't think it's the end of the world if the Vanguard can't use Charge against every opponent.  Still, it shouldn't be the case that come every boss fight the Vanguard turns into a bad Adept.

Agreed. Either they enhance Charge to the point where it's got some use against all opponents, or they stop trying to over-specialise the Vanguard.

[Arppis]

JaegerBane wrote...

lazuli wrote...

robarcool wrote...

I do agree though that with better level design, charge can be made more effective.

At the same time, I don't think it's the end of the world if the Vanguard can't use Charge against every opponent.  Still, it shouldn't be the case that come every boss fight the Vanguard turns into a bad Adept.

Agreed. Either they enhance Charge to the point where it's got some use against all opponents, or they stop trying to over-specialise the Vanguard.

Every class has it's weak points. Deal with it.

[lazuli]

Arppis wrote...

Every class has it's weak points. Deal with it.

False.  What is the Soldier's weak point?

[JaegerBane]

Karsciyin wrote...
As for biotics, well, they had a whole host of abilities but they were all offensive, and only worked on unshielded, unarmoured, and (for the most part at least) unbarriered targets. Which is NOT MANY. At that point, you can usually kill an enemy by sneezing on it. Combine that with not having a barrier of your own, and not having ammo powers, I didn't know whether to make the extra ability Warp Ammo or Barrier. I felt I needed them both, and there was no way I'd use the whole host of offensive abilities provided in a regular battle.

While I always thought the biotics in ME1 were a bit silly in their power, and could have done with some sort of rebalancing, I've always thought the heavy-handed approach of actually rendering them ineffective against defences was the single worst thing about ME2. It badly skewed the class balance on anything above Veteran and, to this day, remains my primary reason for pretty much neglecting any level of Hardcore or above. It just seems as silly, if not more, to relegate biotics to what are effectively finishing moves as it was to make them 'I Win' buttons as they were in ME1. The fact they landed the soldier with a hilariously overpowered ability that made anything in ME1 pale in comparison pretty much caused the idea they were bothered about balance to implode.

The Adept's ability set was something I actually enjoyed thanks to how will it worked in combination, but I agree that the developers left large holes in the arsenal for no good reason. It's telling that the most fun I had with the class was when I hacked it to have Reave, Barrier, Warp Ammo and Stasis. Ordinarily such major changes to a class would be something that would turn me right off, but not here.

I think, ultimately, the issues with Biotics stem from the simple fact that the devs didn't have a clear idea of how they wanted all the classes to function as a whole. They pretty much admitted that all classes are intended to function largely as a combo of powers and weapons, yet they advertised the adept as being the class that 'is best at defeating the opponent without firing a shot'.

Still, I don't have an issue just playing on Normal. On that, the Adept plays just fine. I just hope the developers come up with a working solution in ME3.

[JaegerBane]

Arppis wrote...

Every class has it's weak points. Deal with it.

*sigh* The point is that the consistency of the class weaknesses is virtually non-existent. Try to keep up, Arppis. As Lazuli points out, the Soldier's weaknesses, for example, are hardly on the same level.

Modifié par JaegerBane, 04 août 2011 - 04:24 .

[robarcool]

lazuli wrote...

Arppis wrote...

Every class has it's weak points. Deal with it.

False.  What is the Soldier's weak point?

Exactly! Vanguards are left with only weapons (Shockwave, pull? No sir!) for usually any enemy (or group of enemies) outside the reachable area. So better level design or tweaks in charge can help that. Also, actually boss fights might not be very affected by charge usage (if the boss is in the reachable area at all) unless the level design is good, because you don't want to charge to the boss having ton of health, for he will simply shrug those 2-3 shotgun shots and then kill you. So for boss fights, level design will be equally important apart from bug fixing and tweaking charge.

Modifié par robarcool, 04 août 2011 - 04:36 .

[MELTOR13]

I'm very confused by this thread. Charge is probably one of the more OP powers in the game and Vanguards are nigh indestructible once it's maxed. Why does it need revisions?

[Fata Morgana]

robarcool wrote...

Fata Morgana wrote...

The more I think about it (and the further I get into my Insanity playthrough), the more I just want Vanguard bugs to be fixed. It doesn't need any tweaks beyond that.

I also want to thank the person who suggested maxing out cryo ammo so that I could have my squad use cryo while I use inferno. That's a lot more helpful a combination than I gave it credit for.

Dude, have you reached collector ship? That pretorian was a real tough nut to crack (with my vanguard). I chose assault rifle training and it was a good decision over taking claymore.

Yes, I've gone all the way through to the suicide mission on Insanity now. I haven't had much of a problem with praetoreans since my first playthrough. They move slowly, it's just a matter of beating them down.

Though I do usually take assault rifles as my specialization, since I'm perfectly happy using the eviscerator as my shotgun. 

[robarcool]

MELTOR13 wrote...

I'm very confused by this thread. Charge is probably one of the more OP powers in the game and Vanguards are nigh indestructible once it's maxed. Why does it need revisions?

Tried on insanity bro? Try it and once you reach collector ship or the thresher maww level, then you tell how you find it OP! Or just experience one of those moments when charge bugs out on you and while you were hoping to kill that enemy with ony a sliver of health left, he kills you instead!