27 réponses à ce sujet

[dfle3]

I know that this is the wrong section for this, but I'm not online, and I got the following message when I tried to post in what I thought was the right board:  "You do not meet the requirements to post in this forum".

Not sure how to meet that requirment in any case.

Be aware of possible spoilers in my questions below...

Q1 - Since there is a trophy for losing no members of your team (does that include those abducted during the IFF mission? All of them died for me, apart from Dr. Chakwas or however you spell it), I'd like to be able to achieve this (only Jack died in the final mission, and she wasn't loyal to me). I got the impression that you could either have Jack be loyal, or Miranda, but not both. It's occurred to me since I completed the game that maybe I could have them both loyal, by gaining Jack's loyalty first, then taking on the mission which makes Miranda loyal. Will that work? In the final mission, with the non-loyal Jack, I had her with me when Miranda made the shield to protect us. Jack died in a cut scene. On a mulligan I had Jack create the shield and I had Legion with me...Legion died in the cut scene. So, another possible solution, if you have the non-loyal team mate NOT with you in that shielded party, or later, perhaps, too, do they live?

Q2 - How do you recruit Samara's daughter? I generally played the good guy, but the info after Samara's daughter died made it sound useful to have the daughter...how do you achieve that? By not promising to let Samara kill her? Did learn of this possibility beforehand via a cheat book, but that book gave no details on how to achieve this...and the game gave me no option to make a choice between Samara and her daughter.

Unrelated, but just curious...on one of the missions there is a guy you run into who has made a Virtual Shepard for computers...you have the option of getting a copy from him, which I chose to do...is that available to inspect in the game?

On first play through I did some things to help people, but I'm not so sure now if I will do on replay, whereon I'll delete my original playthrough save. E.g. giving the false passport to that woman and stuff like that. Thoughts on these kinds of actions? I haven't played ME1, so I don't know if that kind of stuff can bite you on the bum!

Modifié par dfle3, 29 juillet 2011 - 09:45 .

[caradoc2000]

You meet the requirements by registering your game. In the mean time, I'll answer a couple of your questions.

You can get all party members (including Jack and Miranda) loyal simultaneously.

To recruit Morinth, you need high enough Paragon/Renegade score to resist her before Samara arrives. Select the Para/Rene convo option and you'll get to select between Samara and Morinth. If you pick the "Can't think" option, you'll automatically side with Samara.

[dfle3]

Thanks for that. That was probably it...I didn't have a lot of options available to me as far as conversation goes with Morinth...I'm guessing that my game playing style with Shepard has been a bit of a Kirk/Spock hybrid...not really being a bad arse unless the situation calls for it...low renegade score no doubt. A cheat book has info on increasing these scores...not sure if I want to take advantage of bugs though...they did mention a way to get Morinth's bonus power even if you side with Samara...anyway, I think I only had "Can't think" as an option for me. Better to do that mission near the end so I have higher P and R scores?

re Jack/Miranda...my suspicion was confirmed re this by glancing at the cheat book...you side with Jack first THEN you do Miranda's loyalty mission. BUT, I still wonder if my other guess has worked out for some...i.e. in the final mission, you do NOT have Jack with you on any of the missions. Has that worked for anybody, if Jack is NOT loyal to you? I.e. is it Jack's non-loyalty (or anyone's) which sees them die at the end? Is one death in your squad typical?

[caradoc2000]

dfle3 wrote...

I'm guessing that my game playing style with Shepard has
been a bit of a Kirk/Spock hybrid...not really being a bad arse unless
the situation calls for it...low renegade score no doubt.

This is the worst thing you can do.

The amount of P/R needed to pass a persuasion check is not fixed, rather it increases over time. This is due to the fact that the game calculates how many P/R points have been available to you thus far (you'll need a percentage of the total points). So if you pick a paragon option here and a renegade option there, you won't be able to pass any of the more difficult checks later in the game. You have to be either consistently paragon or consistently renegade.

For example you should side with neither Jack nor Miranda to keep them both loyal. The same applies to Tali and Legion.

There is a guide to the suicide mission here.

Modifié par caradoc2000, 31 juillet 2011 - 10:46 .

[dfle3]

   Can you clarify your advice? I always press whatever the screen says re the flashing Paragon/Renegade signals during the cut scenes. You saying I should ignore one set of them? (I don't imagine that you would get any more opportunities for either P or R options by choosing one set only...and they score the same amount of points in any case, don't they?). 

    Early on the replay of the game I'm doing now (so as to have my Normandy crew not die when they're abducted) I've noticed some Renegade conversation options which maybe I didn't have before. You saying I should ignore one set of them too? (i.e. I suppose I'm asking if Paragon/Renegade is closely linked to Charm/Intimidate or if they are unrelated...do both go towards your P/R score?) Further, does it matter which set you work on, for, e.g. the option to choose Morinth over Samara? I.e. a high Renegade OR Paragon score will let you recruit her? How full does either meter have to be to choose her?

re side with neither Jack nor Miranda...I don't think I had that option, which made me think that the workaround is to side with Jack THEN do Miranda's loyalty mission AFTER Jack's, if needs be. Some online advice I've seen suggests that too. I thought another workaround would be to do those loyalty dilemmas right before you take on the IFF mission...by that stage you SHOULD have enough conversation options to ensure everybody's loyalty, right? (regardless of whether you concentrated on P/R?).

Thanks for the link...I think I intuitively did the 'right' thing for first play through, apart from the 'fault' that I didn't have Jack's loyalty...which is a flaw of the game, I think...if the advice is right re siding with Jack and doing Miranda's loyalty mission last, then it is just a matter of luck for a novice to stumble on that and to have a 100% survival rate for the end mission...the game should take dumb luck out of the equation and allow you to work to get everybody's loyalty, irregardless of what sequence you do...should add that to my other thread here re suggestions of the game.

Modifié par dfle3, 02 août 2011 - 06:28 .

[caradoc2000]

Take a look at the morality guide here, especially this section.

No luck is needed for Jack/Miranda, you just have to be consistent with your morality choices.

Modifié par caradoc2000, 02 août 2011 - 08:49 .

[Blackguard82]

Try the mass effect wikipedia. You will find answers for everything. Keep in mind that you need to use as much as possible of paragon/renegade dialogue options(choose one and keep with it) in order to keep loyalties when your crewmates make you choose between them(I still don't get what the point of the bar is, since it is a percentage of how much paragon/renegade dialogue options you have used that counts...)
link to ME Wiki:
http://masseffect.wi...ass_Effect_Wiki

Modifié par Blackguard82, 04 août 2011 - 11:30 .

[dfle3]

I had a look at the earlier link provided and it mentioned bugs which allow you to gain an inordinate amount of P/R points, apparently. Think I've seen something similar mentioned in cheat books. Are cheats like that deliberately created by the programmers? Personally, I don't think it's desirable or fair...you should be able to get conversation options open to you just through the ordinary course of the game...it would be bad if you needed bugs in the game to get the requisite score in P/R...bad programming, I think...even if they become open on replays.

There's obviously a truck load of info to trawl through...just appreciate the answer to this if someone knows it at the top of their head:

* Do you have to ration your Charm options in conversations? I mean do you have to make sure that you don't 'waste' such Charm options and risk not having options where it counts...in settling loyalty disputes in a manner which doesn't put one squad member offside? That kind of info would be good to know.

re luck between Jack and Miranda loyalty...on first playthrough I had no Charm option, so had to choose. I'm replaying the game now and recently Chambers has added Jack to the list of people who want to speak with me...I'm wondering if I got it wrong re sequence...I'm assuming that when the loyalty dispute comes up between Jack and Miranda and you have to pick one (I forget what triggers that choice), that you should side with Jack THEN do Miranda's loyalty mission in order to win her back. Now I'm wondering if it doesn't matter...i.e. you can also do Miranda's loyalty mission first, side with her, then do Jack's loyalty mission. Is that right? Of course, I'm assuming I don't have Charm/Intimidate option to choose from, like I did with Tali and Legion...no problems there.

So, my point re "luck" re Jack and Miranda was that IF there is 'right' sequence to gain the loyalty of both, then that is mere luck in picking it...I'm saying that sequence shouldn't matter...it would suck to not have the chance to have everybody's loyalty because you didn't read a walkthrough on a site like this...I don't like the idea of having to brush up on that kind of info before you play a game.

Just by the by, some of this Charm/Intimidate stuff doesn't seem plausible to me...intuitively it makes sense to have a commander who can do both for effect in reality. And it seemed silly to try and charm the judges in Tali's trial...I didn't do that first time around, because I was thinking how doing that in reality would make you seem a suck.

Anyway, I'm leaving the Jack/Miranda/Samara missions until later, in the hope that more conversation options open up to me, so I can have everyone loyal.

Thanks for the Wiki link...lot of info to go through...which is why I'm hoping a straight answer to my question here will suffice...but I'll try and check those links out more later.

P.S. unrelated, but out of curiousity, if you had Shepard provide the shield in the final mission, did you lose anyone, assuming that they were all loyal? With a non-loyal Jack in my first play through, I lost her with Miranda providing the shield, and, interestingly, I lost Legion when Jack provided the shield...so, a non-loyal team member either died themselves or saw a loyal team member die. Interesting.

[FemShep 4 President]

dfle3 wrote...
snip

After having completed both Miranda's and Jack's loyalty mission, you will be presented with the 'conflict' scene. It makes absolutely no difference in which order you do the loyalty missions, you will be presented with the scene immediately after you complete the second loyalty mission - whichever one that is. There is no luck factor, as you call it.

At this point you will have the following 4 options:

1) resolve conflict in favor of Jack (loosing Miranda's loyalty)
2) resolve conflict in favor of Miranda (loosing Jack's loyalty)
3) use paragon option to retain loyalty of both
4) use renegade option to retain loyalty of both

Options 3 and 4 will only be open to you if you have enough paragon/renegade points respectively. Otherwise they will be greyed out.


If you do loose the loyalty of one of them, then you will have the ability to gain regain their loyalty later on. Just go and speak to them immediately afterwards, and you should a greyed out conversation option - this is what you will need to select.  However, you will need an even higher paragon/renegade score than you needed at the time of the conflict, for it be selectable.


How much paragon/renegade points do you need to be able to select the appropriate paragon/renegade option?

It depends on the option. However it is very important to note that it is not a simple score - e.g. 100 paragon points. Instead it is a percentage of available points so far. This is very important for you to understand.

So, for example, to be able to pick option 3 in the above example you may need 80% (not the actual % - just using it as an example) of all paragon points that have been available to you so far in the game. So if you reach this conflict point early in the game, you might need 100 paragon points. However if you reach the conflict point later in the game, you would need 200 paragon points. Therefore, perversely, it is easier to 'jump these hurdles' if you do them earlier in the game, rather than later. This is particularly important when it comes to Morinth. It is virtually impossible to recruit her if you don't do Samarra's loyalty mission as soon as possible.


How to maximise your chances of accessing the paragon/renegade option in theory?

- Pick a side at the start - paragon or renegade.  Pick as many of the relevant conversation options as you can.
- Select every single interrupt that you can, irrespective of whether they are of your chosen alignment. They are effectively free morality points.
- Maximise your passive class power such that you take the 100% paragon/renegade bonus.

Obviously you have to combine this with your own role-playing style. In effect the game does penalise you for being morally ambiguous, which I don't really agree with - so make of it what you will.

Also, I have never used any of those cheats/glitches - and you certainly don't have to. But be aware that recruiting Morinth is very difficult, and you will need to play either a perfect paragon or renegade playthrough to get her.


Suicide mission

As the previous poster said, just read this.

Modifié par FemShep 4 President, 05 août 2011 - 02:06 .

[dfle3]

Thanks for that. What you said about it becoming harder to get loyal crew is a bit worrying because I thought it would be easier and that's what I've been doing...'sorting' this out later! The cheat book I have says specifically to wait to do Miranda's loyalty mission after you have sided with Jack, but like I said, my memory is foggy on what triggers the ruction between Jack and Miranda...my memory on why I had trouble with them is foggy too...because I had already done Jack's loyalty mission first, and then sided with Miranda? Just letting people know in any case that the cheat book mentions a particular sequence to get the loyalty of both.

re Morinth...yeah...chatting her up was pretty hard...had to to retry this a few times, but, like I said, had no conversation options to recruit her. Damn...I really hope it's not tough to sort this out, as I've recruited the better half of my team and have yet to recruit Samara...but your point is when I do recruit her, do her loyalty mission straight away when it comes up?

re regaining loyalty of Jack or Miranda in conversation...I know that it doesn't work for Jack...I've tried. But, like I say, my memory of what I had done to that point is foggy...perhaps I had already done both loyalty missions for them? I tried variations on first play through...choosing Jack meant that Miranda didn't want to talk to you afterwards and Jack was worse...throughout the course of the game she just doesn't want to know you anymore.

How is that % for P/R arrived at? I mean, how do you know if you have the requisite %?

It feels funny not pressing R2 when the symbol flashes, as I've been doing of late, concentrating on P, as I am. Also weird...I did press R2 for R when it comes up for the cutscene of shooting the mech on the Data Hound mission, I think...how does shooting a toaster make Shepard a bad boy? Hmm.

re passive power class - I think I saw something on this when I played at respeccing my stats. I think the cheat book mentions something about maxing out other parameters too...or maybe they meant respeccing what you already had, to get the full P or R bar...not sure.

re game punishes you for being ambiguous...I don't really see it in those terms...in reality, in managing people, you need to have more than one trick...carrots for some, sticks for others.

Anyone tried using Shepard for the shield duties in the final mission? What was that like? Any squad die, assuming all of them were loyal? If there was more opportunity to save in the game, it might be fun trying out different options, e.g. someone with no/little biotic abilities!

On replay, also noticing that my squad members die...but come back to life for the next section of the battle. Hmm.

*** Oh, darn...you mean I'm meant to focus on ONE of P or R as far as CONVERSATIONS go, BUT, to take up BOTH options for flashing interrupts? Hmm...this is the kind of info you need to know about...as in the game should tell you this, not forums. It's more complicated than the game lets on.

Modifié par dfle3, 07 août 2011 - 06:59 .

[FemShep 4 President]

re Morinth...yeah...chatting her up was pretty hard...had to to retry this a few times, but, like I said, had no conversation options to recruit her. Damn...I really hope it's not tough to sort this out, as I've recruited the better half of my team and have yet to recruit Samara...but your point is when I do recruit her, do her loyalty mission straight away when it comes up?

Actually you should have recruited Samara as soon as possible, and then done her loyalty mission immediately afterwards. As it stands you have virtually no chance to recruit Morinth in your current playthrough.

How is that % for P/R arrived at? I mean, how do you know if you have the requisite %?

The % is set by the game designers. And you won't know if you have the requisite %, until you actually reach the particular conflict point in the game. If there is an option greyed out, you don't have the required %.

re passive power class - I think I saw something on this when I played at respeccing my stats. I think the cheat book mentions something about maxing out other parameters too...or maybe they meant respeccing what you already had, to get the full P or R bar...not sure.

You can double your Paragon/Renegade score by developing your class skill and choosing the specialization that gives you a +100% bonus. Go to the level-up screen.

Anyone tried using Shepard for the shield duties in the final mission? What was that like? Any squad die, assuming all of them were loyal?

You cannot select Shepard for that task.

If there was more opportunity to save in the game, it might be fun trying out different options, e.g. someone with no/little biotic abilities!

As I said earlier, this guide will tell you everything you need to know about the suicide mission. In fact there is even a handy chart:

*** Oh, darn...you mean I'm meant to focus on ONE of P or R as far as CONVERSATIONS go, BUT, to take up BOTH options for flashing interrupts? Hmm...this is the kind of info you need to know about...as in the game should tell you this, not forums. It's more complicated than the game lets on.

Yes, exactly. That's if you want to maximise your chances of retaining loyalties, recruiting Morinth etc. However, that may not sit well with your role playing sensibiities.

Modifié par FemShep 4 President, 08 août 2011 - 08:36 .

[dfle3]

At the moment I'm annoyed that there is no fight between Jack and Miranda...I've gotten Jack's loyalty, but haven't done Miranda's mission yet...the cheat book says - I think - get Jack's loyalty first, then - for sure - do Miranda's loyalty mission. If that advice is right, I'd like to know WHAT mission triggers the fight between Jack and Miranda, so I can do Miranda's mission afterwards. It's just not happening for me now. Did look at the wiki and it says that the fight is triggered by completing the Miranda loyalty mission...hmm...am I missing something here? I.e. as in the cheat book is wrong? Or is there a workaround in doing Miranda's mission first, choosing her side, then doing Jack's mission? Otherwise I'd just like to know if there is some OTHER mission which triggers the fight between Jack and Miranda.

Your last comment...I'm not sure that you are right on that...I refrained from pressing R2 for that Nassana merc on Thane's recruitment mission, and that opened a Charm option on conversation with him, which was cool. I assume that gained me more Paragon points.

re Shepard on shield duties in final mission...I thought that there was, but, then again, I did call my character "Jack", so maybe I got confused. I do know that you could choose anyone for the mission...even people with no biotic abilities or close to.

re recruiting Morinth...I'm hoping that you are wrong but the info is useful if you are right. The thing is, I think Samara is one of the latter missions open to you. Anyway, I seem to be getting more charm conversation options open to me, which is why I'm hoping I can prove you wrong.

Anyway, mainly interested in the question of whether you can do something to trigger the Jack/Miranda fight, apart from doing Miranda's loyalty mission.

One thing that did annoy me...feeding the fishes on first playthrough. On second play through I'm holding back buying them until right before I do the IFF mission...but, Chambers just offered to feed my fish when I am away...even though I don't have any! Would have liked to have her do that first play through!

Cheers.

edit in...I did trawl through some of the wiki notes and found something of use to me...I'll give the link below and the heading for the useful section, for future reference for me:

http://masseffect.wi..._Effect_2_Guide


LoyaltyEdit
See also: Loyalty

Note on Loyalty MissionsEdit

Modifié par dfle3, 11 août 2011 - 06:15 .

[FemShep 4 President]

At the moment I'm annoyed that there is no fight between Jack and Miranda...I've gotten Jack's loyalty, but haven't done Miranda's mission yet...the cheat book says - I think - get Jack's loyalty first, then - for sure - do Miranda's loyalty mission. If that advice is right, I'd like to know WHAT mission triggers the fight between Jack and Miranda, so I can do Miranda's mission afterwards. It's just not happening for me now. Did look at the wiki and it says that the fight is triggered by completing the Miranda loyalty mission...hmm...am I missing something here? I.e. as in the cheat book is wrong? Or is there a workaround in doing Miranda's mission first, choosing her side, then doing Jack's mission? Otherwise I'd just like to know if there is some OTHER mission which triggers the fight between Jack and Miranda.

No, there isn't. Your cheat book is wrong. Burn it, its rubbish. The wiki is your best source of info.

Your last comment...I'm not sure that you are right on that...I refrained from pressing R2 for that Nassana merc on Thane's recruitment mission, and that opened a Charm option on conversation with him, which was cool. I assume that gained me more Paragon points.

Yes. There are a three or four instances where selecting an interrupt will remove the opportunity to select a charm or renegade option in a subsequent conversation. However, the rest of the 40 or so interrupts are not like this, so I didn't bring it up because I didn't want to complicate the matter when you already seemd a little confused.

If you want to be extra careful, then you can restrict yourself to selecting conversation options and interrupts for only your chosen alighment. Though that is being unecessary careful. Even on my Morinth playthrough I wasn't that anal.

re recruiting Morinth...I'm hoping that you are wrong but the info is useful if you are right. The thing is, I think Samara is one of the latter missions open to you. Anyway, I seem to be getting more charm conversation options open to me, which is why I'm hoping I can prove you wrong.

Lol. You won't. But good luck trying.

And yes, you can't do Samara's recruitment immediately, but you should do it as soon as you can.

One thing that did annoy me...feeding the fishes on first playthrough. On second play through I'm holding back buying them until right before I do the IFF mission...but, Chambers just offered to feed my fish when I am away...even though I don't have any! Would have liked to have her do that first play through!

Yes - romance Kelly a little, and she will offer to feed your fish.

Modifié par FemShep 4 President, 11 août 2011 - 01:41 .

[dfle3]

re wrong cheat book...I hate wasting my time like this, because redoing missions or undoing progress is such a pain. How about the flipside? I mean, if instead of doing Jack's loyalty mission first, I had done Miranda's loyalty mission first, would that have triggered the fight between Jack and Miranda? If yes, then I suppose the solution would be to side with Miranda in that fight and then do Jack's loyalty mission. That would work, yeah? Not sure what to do now...do Miranda's loyalty mission and hope I have enough P points to persuade her backing Jack a moment ago was just a ploy?

That's the kind of thing I'm saying I'm not liking...i.e. the game has a random 'correct' way to do things, which means if you want that outcome you have to read the script on forums like this...I'd just rather it make no difference what order you do things...you could still get the desired outcome that you want. The game makers way is more suitable to a movie...movies follow scripts.

Back to the cheatbook...it probably has some other useful info on the game though...like planets which are good for mining...I actually bought a map on Ilium but I'm not sure that info from that is coming up on my map, which is annoying.

re Kelly...I did take an interest in her first play through but it got pretty boring...our conversations always seem to go around in circles...where she'd blah about it being an honour to serve with Cerberus and I'd embrace her if she fell yadda yadda. It didn't really seem to go beyond that. Not sure why things seem to be progressing more now...she had dinner in my cabin...I'm assuming that eat was all that we did!

On first play through I scored with Miranda...not sure how much siding with Jack and then trying to win Miranda over verbally will change things as far as scoring goes. After the game proper, it was like Shepard and Miranda were back to before they had sex, conversation wise.

Hmm...Tali also seemed pretty keen on Shepard.

Would be interested - probably in a few months - to play the game as a female...it would be nice to have the option to score with Kelly, but it sounds like my options are limited to Jacob and lizards. Hmm.

Would finishing my second play through of the game give me any start up bonuses creating a new Shepard (of a different gender and appearance)? It was good to have bonuses for my second play through...I'm more of a hero this time around...actually helping Kasumi take down that South African sounding guy and Grunt to defeat that giant octopus or whatever it was!

Modifié par dfle3, 12 août 2011 - 05:25 .

[FemShep 4 President]

How about the flipside? I mean, if instead of doing Jack's loyalty mission first, I had done Miranda's loyalty mission first, would that have triggered the fight between Jack and Miranda?

No. No. No. No. No. A thousand times, no.

As I said above:

After having completed both Miranda's and Jack's loyalty missions, you will be presented with the 'conflict' scene. It makes absolutely no difference in which order you do the loyalty missions, you will be presented with the scene immediately after you complete the second loyalty mission - whichever one that is.

Would be interested - probably in a few months - to play the game as a female...it would be nice to have the option to score with Kelly, but it sounds like my options are limited to Jacob and lizards. Hmm.

No they're not. Female Shepard can romance Jacob, Thane, Garrus, Kelly and Liara.

Note that Liara can only be romanced in the Lair of the Shadow Broker DLC, and only if you selected her as your love interest in ME 1/ME Genesis.

Technically she can also 'romance' Samara or Morinth, though those romances don't work out very well.

http://masseffect.wi...om/wiki/Romance

Modifié par FemShep 4 President, 12 août 2011 - 12:53 .

[dfle3]

Okay...it seems that the cheat book got it's facts wrongs re Jack/Miranda workaround (unless the game is more complicated than it seems)...I've fiddled with order and at least the way I'm playing it, there's no 'easy' way to resolve the conflict. So...

*** If I go with being loyal to Jack, will Miranda come around to being loyal again later in the game? I mean WITHOUT charm/intimidate options in conversations? On my save where I went with Jack in the fight, immediately afterwards Miranda was being snarky with me and I had no charm/intimidate options available. On first play through I eventually opted to have Miranda loyal but Jack seemed a lost cause to win back (despite numerous attempts to talk to her at different points in the game)...in both play throughs I've been more focused on Paragon/Charm. If yes, I'm just curious if I can still bed Miranda at the end, like I did on my first play through...though Jack seems up for it, when I spoke to her afterwards (on my current play through).

*** Anyway, I suppose my dilemma is this...replay Miranda's loyalty mission and side with her, losing Jack coz I know she won't turn or just play on with things as are, in the hope that Miranda will turn and regain loyalty to me...is there something that I can do (aside from conversations options which I may not have) to get that outcome? I.e. some mission which if completed will allow me to win Miranda back? The third option is to leave Miranda's loyalty mission to near the end in the hope that I have more charm options to use on either of them...but you're saying that for Samara/Morinth, at least, you had to get in early to choose between them...this is just so RANDOM...a script which you have to follow...sort of defeats the purpose of freedom in a game, I think.

I did an anomaly mission after I sided with Jack, and MIranda still was being snarky with me afterwards.

Have to say this is aggravating me...having to replay missions etc. I mean, there is a wiki here which you showed which goes into depth into how to manufacture specific outcomes, but with Jack/Miranda it's just some wishy/washy conversation options nonsense which no one can really explain to me, and not the wiki...not a fan of this P/R system...Shepard is a bad boy, like Michael Jackson, for shooting a LOKI mech or whatever you call them...um, okay.

On my P/R scale, P is at about 2/3 full or so, and R is quite low. Advice for me? I want the option which won't stuff me around too much, re having to replay missions...I'd like to recreate the outcome of my first play through, as far as scoring with Miranda goes, but have Jack live, because first time she died and was not loyal. How to do that? If I can do that, I'll delete my save for the first play through, because in that I lost all my ship's crew, apart for Chakwas.

Like I say, on replay, the whole nebulous P/R thing is REALLY bugging me, coz that's the only thing which is hard to engineer specifically for, as the game seems to make it TOO hard to do...unlike everything else.

P.S. re Female Shepard...well, I was close...Jacob, the lizards...and - thank God - some hot babes! I wonder why Miranda or Tali don't put out to her!...or Jack...some rough trade!

Modifié par dfle3, 14 août 2011 - 04:22 .

[FemShep 4 President]

*** If I go with being loyal to Jack, will Miranda come around to being loyal again later in the game? I mean WITHOUT charm/intimidate options in conversations?

No.

*** Anyway, I suppose my dilemma is this...replay Miranda's loyalty mission and side with her, losing Jack coz I know she won't turn or just play on with things as are, in the hope that Miranda will turn and regain loyalty to me...is there something that I can do (aside from conversations options which I may not have) to get that outcome? I.e. some mission which if completed will allow me to win Miranda back?

No.

The third option is to leave Miranda's loyalty mission to near the end in the hope that I have more charm options to use on either of them

As you note, this is very unlikely to work.

Have to say this is aggravating me...having to replay missions etc. I mean, there is a wiki here which you showed which goes into depth into how to manufacture specific outcomes, but with Jack/Miranda it's just some wishy/washy conversation options nonsense which no one can really explain to me, and not the wiki...not a fan of this P/R system...Shepard is a bad boy, like Michael Jackson, for shooting a LOKI mech or whatever you call them...um, okay.

I did explain the basis of the Jack/Miranda conflict. It is simple. Once you have done both their loyalty missions you will be presented with the conflict scene. If you do not have a sufficiently high paragon/renegade score, then you must choose between them.

If you're not a fan of the P/R system - then fair enough. But the system itself is relatively straightforward.

I'd like to recreate the outcome of my first play through, as far as scoring with Miranda goes, but have Jack live, because first time she died and was not loyal. How to do that? If I can do that, I'll delete my save for the first play through, because in that I lost all my ship's crew, apart for Chakwas.

To romance Miranda, she HAS to be loyal.

It is possible for Jack to survive the suicide mission even if she is not loyal - but you need to select your team VERY carefully. You will need to go through the suicide mission walkthrough provided in the link above. Do not try to do it without consulting the walkthough, or you will almost certainly loose a disloyal Jack.

To save your crew, you must go throught the Omega-4 relay immediately after your crew are abducted. Again, consult the suicide mission walkthrough.

Like I say, on replay, the whole nebulous P/R thing is REALLY bugging me, coz that's the only thing which is hard to engineer specifically for, as the game seems to make it TOO hard to do...unlike everything else.

It's not supposed to be easy to engineer an outcome.

Modifié par FemShep 4 President, 16 août 2011 - 08:32 .

[dfle3]

I am aware now (and have been for a while) re need to go to Omega 4 Relay right away after your ship's crew is abducted. It's a pity the game didn't warn you about that (as it warns you before you take on the Omega 4 Relay mission...but I don't think that the game actually mentions at the time that you can leave anomaly missions etc for after your final Omega 4 Relay mission, which would have been good). That's another reason I am bugged...I was happy with the outcome of my first playthrough, apart from losing all but one of my ship's crew. Apart from that, only lost Jack.

Have looked at the Wiki entries, and will probably look at it some more. But I still have issues with it...the Wiki mentions numerous bugs which allow you to gain heaps of Paragon and Renegade points. There is nothing specific about WHAT to do to get the requisite ability to charm Miranda et.al. That's my point about it being nebulous.

E.g. it would be helpful if there was some MINIMAL thing you had to do to engineer desired outcomes...e.g. only have one certain conversation and press L2 or whatever...i.e. possible to have have a minimal amount of blue in your guage, but have 100% weighting to it? It just seems flawed when the Wiki here is telling you about bugs which give you heaps of P or R...a cheat, to do something which should be available to anyone who has played the game relatively consistently.

It's odd...on my first play through I had no options to charm either Jack or Miranda, nor Samara or Morinth, but I could charm both Tali and Legion towards the end of the game. I don't like this randomness...you have suggested following a script...do the Samara/Morinth mission first...just not a fan of this arbitrary script needing to be followed to get a certain outcome.

Now I'm wondering how much of my first playthrough I'll be able to replicate. If I stay loyal to Jack, I'll have to look at the Wiki on how to keep Miranda alive on the final mission...assuming by never taking her with me or putting her in charge of the other group, if she is not loyal to me. Also wondering now if I can keep Legion/Tali loyal to me like on first playthrough.

The whole P/R system is vague...it seems that the ONLY people who can use it to advantage are those who know the bugs of the game...which just shouldn't be the case with a well designed game, I don't think. Not a fan of having to cheat in games.

[FemShep 4 President]

E.g. it would be helpful if there was some MINIMAL thing you had to do to engineer desired outcomes...

The whole point of the game is that there are significant consequences to your actions.
Your suggestion would completely undermine that.

It just seems flawed when the Wiki here is telling you about bugs which give you heaps of P or R...a cheat, to do something which should be available to anyone who has played the game relatively consistently.

Ignore the cheats/bugs. They are not supposed to be used. I don't. Most other players don't.

It's odd...on my first play through I had no options to charm either Jack or Miranda, nor Samara or Morinth, but I could charm both Tali and Legion towards the end of the game. I don't like this randomness...you have suggested following a script...do the Samara/Morinth mission first...just not a fan of this arbitrary script needing to be followed to get a certain outcome.

I'm not saying you should follow a script on a normal playthrough.

However if you want to unlock everything possible (all loyalties, squadmates etc.), or engineer a specific outcome, then you will need to have a deeper understanding of game mechanics. Just like in any other game.

Saving your entire team is supposed to be the exception, not the rule.




Also, here is an in depth explanation of the Miranda/Jack conflict which you may find useful.

Modifié par FemShep 4 President, 17 août 2011 - 04:49 .

[dfle3]

I was hoping I would be able to edit in something before you replied...namely, I just went back to an earlier save of mine in the hope of trying out those bugs the cheat book mentioned. I.e. I've undone my Miranda loyalty mission and did the recruit Tali mission instead...got a useful tip from the cheat book...you can pick up a geth gun if you play that mission in hardcore, which I did. Looks like only Garrus and Grunt can use that weapon though, which I thought was a bit odd.

Anyway, might try that Samara bug, where, apparently, you can gain a lot of Paragon points in a conversation with her...I'm assuming I still will have trouble recruiting Morinth, so maybe this won't worry me much. It looks like it might be a grind, but HOPEFULLY, it might hold me in good stead once I replay the Miranda loyalty mission. That was actually a useful tip which worked from the cheat book! Pity about their dead wrong advice for Miranda/Jack conflict though.

Anyway, to your reply...

No, actually, my point is that the game is ALREADY undermined due to bugs which subvert the system, perhaps. If you are MEANT to be able to engineer the loyalty of both Jack and Miranda, then I think it should be more transparent on HOW you do that...it looks like the developers are just allowing the bug freaks to engineer outcomes, which I'm not a fan of...give everyone the chance!

Ideally, if there are real dilemmas, then I think that the devs should NOT have bugs which can counter the system...less aggro for me in that case. It just bugs me that cheats can beat the sytem because they can manipulate it. Like I say, the system is opaque in the game.

re not suggesting following script...but that's the fact of the matter, isn't it? I.e. if you want to have the option of recruiting Morinth, you are 'supposed' to do her loyalty mission early...I'm not a fan of that...i.e. some obscure bit of knowledge which can help you with some desirable outcome...I'm saying that a GOOD game would be indifferent to what order you did things...there's NO logical reason why doing Samara's loyalty mission very early should make it easier to recruit Morinth...it's just a bs system, in my view. You're pretty much forcing people to replay the entire game again, if they come onto these boards asking how to recruit Morinth and they have already played 'too much' of the game in order to do that. It's just a bad system, in my view.

re needing a deeper understanding of the game mechanics...again, whilst Wiki has info on loads of stuff, it is vague as far as Paragon/Renegade info goes, as in how to orchestrate certain outcomes using this system in the game...just because Wiki mentions this stuff, doesn't mean that the knowledge is useful...it doesn't help me. A hypothetical useful bit of info might look like this: "On your first conversation choose the bottom left converstion option. From then on, always keep conversations short...always choose the options on the right hand side. When you see the flashing Paragon symbol, press it. Never press it again. You now have the ability to ensure the loyalty of fighting crew in disputes". I have no idea if that is true, but it is a level of detail that the Wiki does not have...there's really no point steering people to that section of the site, because it doesn't really help anybody...and most of the info is just pointing out bugs which you can abuse for P/R in any case.

re specific outcomes...I was happy with my first play through...I could get desired outcomes just using my intuition and logic...only lost Jack. It bugged me that in the game it made no difference how long you took to do stuff, until you did the IFF mission...I waited too long to rescue my kidnapped crew and so lost them...was hoping that the game would carry on not caring how long you took to do stuff. I suppose that is why I'm particulary hard on the game now...I should be on my second playthrough now playing as a female, instead I'm trying to replay the game as I would have liked it to end first time...being 'forced' to play the game again to right those earlier 'wrongs'.

Anyway, will look at your suggested link re Miranda/Jack...maybe I've previously seen it. I suppose deciding who to side with in the game will be less of an issue for me if EITHER can stay alive at the end of the game, even if one is not loyal...hopefully that is the case for both of them.

P.S. had a quick glance at some of the posts and links which come from your previous post...one link has a really long list of points for P/R conversation options...man, that really is too much work, if it's useful at all. Noticed that some posts contradict each other too, in the link you gave...maybe the Official Site should post on this? As in their source of info which is guaranteed reliable? Dunno.  Will check in closer detail when I have more time though.

Modifié par dfle3, 18 août 2011 - 08:53 .

[FemShep 4 President]

No, actually, my point is that the game is ALREADY undermined due to bugs which subvert the system, perhaps.

All games have bugs. Maybe Bioware whould have fixed these ones by now - but that's no reason to use them.

If you are MEANT to be able to engineer the loyalty of both Jack and Miranda, then I think it should be more transparent on HOW you do that...it looks like the developers are just allowing the bug freaks to engineer outcomes, which I'm not a fan of...give everyone the chance!

You are not meant to engineer outcomes. Only experienced players do that, which will be about 1% of all players, and of these, probably only 1% use cheats/bugs. To be fair, if you had the PC or xBox versions of the game, then you could have used gibbed's savegame editor, but as a PS3 player that option isn't open to you.

re not suggesting following script...but that's the fact of the matter, isn't it?

For normal playthroughs, no. But if you want to engineer outcomes, then yes - that is correct. The point is that engineering outcomes is not supposed to be the way to play the game. But you do want to do that, then yes - walkthroughs are important.

I.e. if you want to have the option of recruiting Morinth, you are 'supposed' to do her loyalty mission early...I'm not a fan of that...i.e. some obscure bit of knowledge which can help you with some desirable outcome...I'm saying that a GOOD game would be indifferent to what order you did things...there's NO logical reason why doing Samara's loyalty mission very early should make it easier to recruit Morinth...it's just a bs system, in my view. You're pretty much forcing people to replay the entire game again, if they come onto these boards asking how to recruit Morinth and they have already played 'too much' of the game in order to do that. It's just a bad system, in my view.

The paragon/renegade system is certainly not perfect, but it is the best implementation in a game I have yet seen of the complex concept of morality.

re needing a deeper understanding of the game mechanics...again, whilst Wiki has info on loads of stuff, it is vague as far as Paragon/Renegade info goes, as in how to orchestrate certain outcomes using this system in the game...just because Wiki mentions this stuff, doesn't mean that the knowledge is useful...it doesn't help me. A hypothetical useful bit of info might look like this: "On your first conversation choose the bottom left converstion option. From then on, always keep conversations short...always choose the options on the right hand side. When you see the flashing Paragon symbol, press it. Never press it again. You now have the ability to ensure the loyalty of fighting crew in disputes". I have no idea if that is true, but it is a level of detail that the Wiki does not have...there's really no point steering people to that section of the site, because it doesn't really help anybody...and most of the info is just pointing out bugs which you can abuse for P/R in any case.

The wiki on the morality system is admitedly not as useful as it could be. However the guide mentionned above is very good.

re specific outcomes...I was happy with my first play through...I could get desired outcomes just using my intuition and logic...only lost Jack. It bugged me that in the game it made no difference how long you took to do stuff, until you did the IFF mission...I waited too long to rescue my kidnapped crew and so lost them...was hoping that the game would carry on not caring how long you took to do stuff.

I agree that the game's inconsistent treatment of time can be a little frustrating.

Modifié par FemShep 4 President, 19 août 2011 - 11:43 .

[dfle3]

Can you expand on the gibbed save game editor you mention?

re bugs...well, it's on this unnecessary replay I'm currently on where they're more of an issue. The bugs in Assassin's Creed games bug the Hell out of me...but it's (i.e. the series) not as good as it's cracked up to be, so I'm really harsh on it...Mass Effect 2 is better in a lot of ways to that franchise, but I suppose to someone not engaged by the RPG game or whatever, the bugs may annoy them more in ME2.

I'll try and rephrase my issue with engineering outcomes thingo...

1) It seems to be do-able in the game.
2) It seems to be undo-able just by playing the game reasonably consistently.
3) It seems do-able by using bugs (assuming they work).

How I'd change it:

Make conversation options open up just by playing the game ordinarily, in no specific script-like order, being reasonably consistent in your actions. Make it obtainable, in other words.

I gave a review of the game (non-pro) on a site and mentioned how it was good that the game gave you hard choices with regard to your squad. It would be cool if that actually was the case...i.e. you had to decide on who died or who might die because of your actions. Bugs and workarounds just spoil that aspect of the game.

re Paragon/Renegade system good but not perfect...I'd prefer something else...like I've mocked here before, I fail to see how shooting a mech makes you a bad arse. And the scene where Shepard can hug someone using L2 is a bit funny. Here's what I'd have...your words and actions can put characters onside or offside. Sometimes actions speak louder than words, so having in game opportunities to do something to win over those not a fan of you would be good. How? Simply. Maybe just picking certain squad members for a mission (ANY) mission, might see opportunities for you to do something which will put you back in someone's good books. The P/R system is just foggy. My system is transparent...but you still might want to have a situation where no matter how many good things you do for someone, their wounds are too deep to ever forgive you...but for that to happen, the thing you did would have to be really serious...not, say, like taking sides in a girl fight.

re time in game inconsistent...well, logically, it makes sense for my crew to die after I took so long to get them...but, prior to that, you had Shepard out to save the universe...whenever he's ready...you might want to do some shopping on Ilium first, relax, kick back a while. The game should either go for realism, or be more gamey...I was hoping it was more gamey by not punishing me for taking so long to rescue my crew.

I'm starting to wonder if I'll bother playing as a female character...bit grindy now...but at least the game does have replay value. Might have to leave that until next year, perhaps, after the sequel is released.

P.S. Just replayed the Strontium Mule mission and I was reminded of a glitch or whatever...the Research Docket...couldn't hack it. Had a quick online re this and a solution doesn't seem certain...but saving and reloading near the reticule is the solution, apparently...any other suggestions?

P.P.S. Do you remember that guy hiding from the Collectors on Horizon, I think it was? Is that the same guy who reappears later (if you do Garrus' loyalty mission)? I made a note of the guy's name...but can't find it!

Modifié par dfle3, 23 août 2011 - 07:08 .

[dfle3]

Regained Miranda's loyalty last night, which was a treat. First try I got the cold shoulder from her, but I chatted to most of the crew and picked up some more Paragon points. Next try, the Charm option worked. Very nice sequence that...the kind of thing I'd imagine saying...before I even heard Shephard saying it. Of course, if I had beent he captain, I would never have had to regain anyone's loyalty...right after the fight me, Jack and Miranda would have been engaged in a threesome...problem solved.

Anyhoo...

If the suggestion was that you should do the Miranda/Jack conflict at the earliest possible time in the game, I can naysay that as the only alternative. I had only to do Thane and Samara's loyalty missions to that point, plus the Geth recruitment. Another nice bonus for me...I took on the Miranda loyalty mission because I felt I was on a roll...had gotten Tali off at her trial (so to speak). Had charm options in that. On first play through, it just seemed silly to brown nose the judge, so I didn't do that...same for that Krogan guy in Afterlife...the charm option seemed inappropriate...often the text doesn't give you the flavour of what is actually said, so sometimes I don't choose them...seems you have to be mechanical re conversaton options...Top Left choice...Top Left choice...don't think...Top Left choice...

*** I am confused though...not EVERY conversation option involves P/R points does it? I mean with ones with top left and bottom left text options etc. If not, be good if the game signalled you wouldn't stuff up your P/R points by selecting them...sort of felt I might have been missing out with Miranda by going Top Left a lot...wasn't even paying that much attention to conversation, which isn't a good sign.

Now, I think I'll try and do Samara's loyalty mission...hopefully I'm on a roll.

*** With Miranda's loyalty...my P meter was slightly over the last section and my R meter was on, or just under the first section...*** to CLARIFY...was it this which helped me get Miranda's loyalty, or was it picking up all those P points talking to my squad after the fight? Or a combination of both?

Modifié par dfle3, 30 août 2011 - 06:18 .

[FemShep 4 President]

Can you expand on the gibbed save game editor you mention?

This thread will point you in the direction of all there is to know. Here is a screen shot from gibbed:



As you can see, you can mod a savegame to give yourself a mass of credits/minerals/paragon and renegade points. As well as change a multitude of other things. This would obviously allow you to resolve any conflicts you wanted to in your favour. In fact it might even be possible to edit loyalties directly with gibbed, but I can't remember for sure.

However this method is not possible on the PS3.

P.P.S. Do you remember that guy hiding from the Collectors on Horizon, Ithink it was? Is that the same guy who reappears later (if you do Garrus' loyalty mission)? I made a note of the guy's name...but can't find it!

No. That guy on Horizon is some random mechanic. The one on Garrus' loaylty mission is Harkin, who was a corrupt C-Sec officer that appeared in Mass Effect 1.

Regained Miranda's loyalty last night, which was a treat.

Well done.

If the suggestion was that you should do the Miranda/Jack conflict at the earliest possible time in the game, I can naysay that as the only alternative.

As I said, it is not the only way of doing it. However it does give you the best chance of securing both loyalties, which was relevant because you were having problems doing so.

*** With Miranda's loyalty...my P meter was slightly over the last section and my R meter was on, or just under the first section...*** to CLARIFY...was it this which helped me get Miranda's loyalty, or was it picking up all those P points talking to my squad after the fight? Or a combination of both?

You would have gained Miranda's loyalty, as getting those additional P points would have increased the ratio of P points gained to total P points available to you up until that point. Your P meter shows your total P points, which is an indirect & imperfect reflection of this aforementionned ratio.

Modifié par FemShep 4 President, 01 septembre 2011 - 09:40 .

[dfle3]

That gibbed thing sounds pretty cool...I had the worst grinding experience playing Pro Evolution Soccer 3 for PS2...could have saved myself heaps of time with a feature like that...my grinding was pretty good though...if there was a gibbed like thing for a PC version of that game I'm not sure they could have gotten as much out of Youth players as I did mindlessly grinding. Do you think playing a game like ME2 on PC but with a console controller would work well? I don't think I'd handle all those key pushing instructions well in any case. Anyway, what's the status of that gibbed...legal? Voids warranties?

re P points...I'm wondering if maybe the Wiki is wrong on this...I'd be curious to find out if people could win Miranda, say, over to being loyal again after the fight, whatever their P or R points...of course, you'd need people to try and win her over who have different stats in their meter...I just get the feeling that maybe if you initially can't win back her loyalty, you could if you do the tour of the ship that I did, and pick up P points talking to your squad.

So, it's just a hypothesis...if you want to charm Miranda, you just pick up all the available P points talking to your squad. If people want to try that, then let me know the results...and say how much of your P and R meters were full and their ratio. Just a hunch. Could be wrong.

re cheats...I followed one from the book and sort of felt guilty, but now I'm not sure that it is a legitimate bug...basically I sided with Morinth first up, then reloaded and went with Samara, as playing a paragon commander. On the re-do, I could still pick up Morinth's biotic power from the special skills options you have. I get the feeling that this is like a trophy...i.e. you earn a trophy, and it's always there. Got the feeling that whatever side you took in the fight, if you replayed the game and wen't the opposite way next time, so you'd still have the biotic ability or whatever of your previous choice available to you...kind of like a trophy, if that makes sense. It's nice having the option of choosing Morinth's power in any case...might try it out some time...approaching end game now anyway. Downloaded a sheet of anomaly locations...a handful are to do with Project Firewalker or Prometheus or something or other...couldn't find them...probably DLC, I assume.

Anyway, thanks for the info re Harkin...he just seemed similar to the guy on Horizon...maybe they look/sound similar?