114 réponses à ce sujet

[ThatDancingTurian]

wildannie wrote...

@Aris Ravenstar So you think that in ME1 they had decided to make Tali and Garrus romancable??

'what was it all for?' The effect the illness had upon Thane's outlook and character would not disappear with a cure, he's still the same awesome character. If you like the character, and accept that there is no reason scientifically that he shouldn't be cured within the ME universe then maybe you should be glad... death is a sad thing, it's not glorious.

I'm talking about the emotional impact. Not sure what you're getting at with Tali and Garrus, because I didn't feel like I was being promised anything regarding them in ME1. How about another ME1 example...

Virmire. Say in ME3, they show the Virmire'd character pop up and give some fabulous explanation of how s/he survived. Maybe they worked out a great way to have had them survive the nuke, or had another Lazarus Project. It could happen. But as much as I love Ashley and even though I have some saves with her dead where I wish I could keep her alive, this would annoy me to no end. The entire situation on Virmire would be invalidated. I would feel emotionally manipulated. This is how I will feel when Thane is cured. If they want to make me care about a character, don't tell me he's going to die and then have that become meaningless in the sequel.

[CheeseEnchilada]

I'm hoping for the lung transplant to show up. It's nothing more than a quick fix, a band-aid to keep him through ME3. He's still dying, still getting sicker; all you've done is slow the progression. It's not a magical cure, it doesn't remove the tragic element to his story, and it could lead to some nice character development. Trying to push Thane out of his martyr mindset, to show him that he does deserve a second chance--if only for a little while longer--could be rather interesting.

Not to mention it gives the player a choice, which we all seem to like. It could be a purely cosmetic one, where you either keep him through the game or get a cool death scene, or it could even have consequences. Get Thane the transplant, and he'll be out of commission for a while while he recovers--do you take that risk, or push him towards a glorious death helping you?

It probably won't have that kind of impact, but I wouldn't be surprised to see a player choice, and I wouldn't mind it either. Actually, I'd prefer a couple of possible options with him; if he's disloyal, he will die no matter what. He would have no reason to accept a transplant. If loyal, you can convince him to do it for Kolyat, or keep your assassin around a little longer and let him die in battle.

I don't want a miracle cure. If they choose to kill him no matter what, I just ask that it be done well. I do prefer the transplant though; it seems the best of both worlds.

[ThePwener]

If there is a lung transplant, then his son would be the likely short listed candidate. You can choose to kill his son in exchange for his assistance or let him die and let his legacy continue on his son.

Great climatic choice.

[crimzontearz]

ThePwener wrote...

If there is a lung transplant, then his son would be the likely short listed candidate. You can choose to kill his son in exchange for his assistance or let him die and let his legacy continue on his son.

Great climatic choice.

Cloning his own organs would be too simple uh?

[Fata Morgana]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

wildannie wrote...

@Aris Ravenstar So you think that in ME1 they had decided to make Tali and Garrus romancable??

'what was it all for?' The effect the illness had upon Thane's outlook and character would not disappear with a cure, he's still the same awesome character. If you like the character, and accept that there is no reason scientifically that he shouldn't be cured within the ME universe then maybe you should be glad... death is a sad thing, it's not glorious.

I'm talking about the emotional impact. Not sure what you're getting at with Tali and Garrus, because I didn't feel like I was being promised anything regarding them in ME1. How about another ME1 example...

Virmire. Say in ME3, they show the Virmire'd character pop up and give some fabulous explanation of how s/he survived. Maybe they worked out a great way to have had them survive the nuke, or had another Lazarus Project. It could happen. But as much as I love Ashley and even though I have some saves with her dead where I wish I could keep her alive, this would annoy me to no end. The entire situation on Virmire would be invalidated. I would feel emotionally manipulated. This is how I will feel when Thane is cured. If they want to make me care about a character, don't tell me he's going to die and then have that become meaningless in the sequel.

Well put. 

[wildannie]

@Aris Ravestar

With Garrus and Tali I'm talking about character development based upon fan reaction.

The Virmire'd character is actually dead and for BW to lazarus them would obviously be stupid... just about as daft as comparing this example to a storyline that cured Thane.

Storys are meant to emotionally manipulate you btw!

Modifié par wildannie, 30 juillet 2011 - 01:40 .

[crimzontearz]

Fata Morgana wrote...

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

wildannie wrote...

@Aris Ravenstar So you think that in ME1 they had decided to make Tali and Garrus romancable??

'what was it all for?' The effect the illness had upon Thane's outlook and character would not disappear with a cure, he's still the same awesome character. If you like the character, and accept that there is no reason scientifically that he shouldn't be cured within the ME universe then maybe you should be glad... death is a sad thing, it's not glorious.

I'm talking about the emotional impact. Not sure what you're getting at with Tali and Garrus, because I didn't feel like I was being promised anything regarding them in ME1. How about another ME1 example...

Virmire. Say in ME3, they show the Virmire'd character pop up and give some fabulous explanation of how s/he survived. Maybe they worked out a great way to have had them survive the nuke, or had another Lazarus Project. It could happen. But as much as I love Ashley and even though I have some saves with her dead where I wish I could keep her alive, this would annoy me to no end. The entire situation on Virmire would be invalidated. I would feel emotionally manipulated. This is how I will feel when Thane is cured. If they want to make me care about a character, don't tell me he's going to die and then have that become meaningless in the sequel.

Well put. 

only....we were given all the hints that he just did not want to be cured.....now he does. The arch is already concluded. He now wants to live thus he will be cured. Before he simply wanted to die

[ThePwener]

crimzontearz wrote...

ThePwener wrote...

If there is a lung transplant, then his son would be the likely short listed candidate. You can choose to kill his son in exchange for his assistance or let him die and let his legacy continue on his son.

Great climatic choice.

Cloning his own organs would be too simple uh?

Since when does BW take the easy route? Plus, cloning organs takes time for them to reach maturity, and as of ME3, Thane only has a little over 3 months at most if you know the timeline of each game.

[ThatDancingTurian]

wildannie wrote...

With Garrus and Tali I'm talking about character development based upon fan reaction.

The Virmire'd character is actually dead and for BW to lazarus them would obviously be stupid... just about as daft as comparing this example to a storyline that cured Thane.

Garrus and Tali didn't say 'I will never sleep with a human' in ME1 and then fly in the face of that based on fan reaction. Again, I don't really get the comparison.

The Virmire situation on the other hand works very well as a comparison, because both the Virmire choice and Thane's death sentence were clearly written to provide emotional impact. To undermine either by slapping on a happy ending when we were promised a sad one is poor writing, IMO.

[crimzontearz]

ThePwener wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

ThePwener wrote...

If there is a lung transplant, then his son would be the likely short listed candidate. You can choose to kill his son in exchange for his assistance or let him die and let his legacy continue on his son.

Great climatic choice.

Cloning his own organs would be too simple uh?

Since when does BW take the easy route? Plus, cloning organs takes time for them to reach maturity, and as of ME3, Thane only has a little over 3 months at most if you know the timeline of each game.

okeer disagrees with you

[crimzontearz]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

wildannie wrote...

With Garrus and Tali I'm talking about character development based upon fan reaction.

The Virmire'd character is actually dead and for BW to lazarus them would obviously be stupid... just about as daft as comparing this example to a storyline that cured Thane.

Garrus and Tali didn't say 'I will never sleep with a human' in ME1 and then fly in the face of that based on fan reaction. Again, I don't really get the comparison.

The Virmire situation on the other hand works very well as a comparison, because both the Virmire choice and Thane's death sentence were clearly written to provide emotional impact. To undermine either by slapping on a happy ending when we were promised a sad one is poor writing, IMO.

it was not clearly written....AT ALL

it is to someone who did not connect the dots tho

[ThatDancingTurian]

crimzontearz wrote...

it was not clearly written....AT ALL

it is to someone who did not connect the dots tho

You keep saying I'm not paying attention but you don't seem to be providing a wealth of proof that points towards him being cured.

[crimzontearz]

here's my post from the previous page....

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

the statement I bolded is wrong in 2 ways

Firstly because we know (even without LOTSB) that flash cloning and gene splicing are technologies both proven and readily available for those with enough money and contacts (as per the codex it is illegal....but what isn't in the terminus?) Thane's disease is not genetic so even flash closing his own lungs from his own genetic material would not be far fetched.

Secondly because "just" because it was not in the vanilla game and only added as a DLC it does not make it "not in the game" or "less relevant". Arrival is not in the vanilla game BUT Shepard is on trial because of the events depicted in it no matter what.

If it were in the vanilla game (perhaps with some other hints he might survive), it would seem like they planned to offer a cure all along and wouldn't feel like a cheap attempt to make us feel sorry for this tragic soul with no hope. As an add-on several months later, it makes it seem like they changed their minds about where they wanted to go with him. We don't know when that was written for LotSB. It might have been a late addition to the DLC made after the 'Cure for Thane' folks stated their case.

In the original game, they did everything possible to make us think there was no way to save Thane in regards to his dialogues. If they go around and cure him now, then what was it all for? If he's cured in ME3, then everything in ME2 is meaningless, a promise of drama without a pay-off.

and yet......for anyone who actually paid attention that is not the case.

it's in Miranda, Okeer, Mordin/Maelon, hell in the collector themselves and the codex in ME. Given Thane's description of Kerpal syndrome it is silly to think he was not cured earlier.

OF COURSE, a smart person would also evince by this that he did NOT want to be cured. His wife died, his son was estranged...he simply had nothing left to live and by his own admission he had accepted his death. Why not allow Mordin to examin him? why being so dismissive of a genius who twarted the biological warfare techniques of a race SO much more advanced than his own when we know thech is there to save him given enough creds and the illegality of the terminus systems? Why else...? Because, again, Thane wanted to die. He wanted to die sooooooo much that he did not wait for the disease to kill him but he took the Nassana contract knowing he would probably have died. Now Thane has his son back.....now Thane might have a lover in shepard (at which point he confesses he is scared of dying). Now he has the will to live and thus actually TRY to get cured

Edit: you are focusing on his disease....I am focusing on the fact it is silly to think he could not be cured given what we know and the fact it is obvious he did not WANT to be cured at the time

[wildannie]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

wildannie wrote...

With Garrus and Tali I'm talking about character development based upon fan reaction.

The Virmire'd character is actually dead and for BW to lazarus them would obviously be stupid... just about as daft as comparing this example to a storyline that cured Thane.

Garrus and Tali didn't say 'I will never sleep with a human' in ME1 and then fly in the face of that based on fan reaction. Again, I don't really get the comparison.

The Virmire situation on the other hand works very well as a comparison, because both the Virmire choice and Thane's death sentence were clearly written to provide emotional impact. To undermine either by slapping on a happy ending when we were promised a sad one is poor writing, IMO.

If you don't get it, I can't help you 

and no, the Virmire situation doesn't work well as a comparison, it's utterly ridiculous.  

Why can't you trust that if BW decide to cure Thane that it will be well written and plausible??  

[PrinceLionheart]

Fata Morgana wrote...

I want to say, that the reason I like the idea of Thane dying isn't because I dislike him. Quite the contrary. He is one of my favorite characters in the series.

It's already been established that he's dying from an incurable disease. To just introduce that character point, then to magically erase it in three because of a cure, would be a disservice to a character that I love. A far greater tribute is the heroic last stand, especially if we get to play as Thane during that last stand, the way we got to play Joker during 2. I think that if done right, it would be one of the most memorable moments of the entire series.

I agree, Thane getting a magical cure would be a massive cop-out and a total disservice to the character they created in the second game. Thane is completely at peace with his life and no his time is coming any second. I mean yeah, I can understand some of the people  romanced him will be saddened to see him go, but that's kinda part of the package of romancing a terminally ill character.

[ThatDancingTurian]

I'm not focusing on the disease, I'm focusing on the writing. I already said the science doesn't really matter. What matters is they spent the game telling us it was inevitable. Neither Thane, nor our two doctors ever presented any viable alternatives to his death pre-LotSB.

Thane wasn't just suicidal. If he was he wouldn't have needed a disease to make him reckless. He simply accepted his death as an inevitability as a result of his disease and wanted to decide how he eventually went out.

Again, there's just as much 'proof' that we can bring the Virmire'd squaddie back (Rana survived, there could have been a bunker since we know bunkers exist in Mass Effect, you can bring people back to life, according to the Lazarus Project). I'm not talking about the how, I'm talking about the why.

[wildannie]

Rana wasn't strapped to the bomb!

Dr Chakwas seems to be more of a field doctor. We never get to even ask Mordin about Thane's condition - to me this is weird... Maybe it's because if we asked we'd learn that a cure is indeed possible.

Thane no longer accepts his death as he once did.

[Aoba]

crimzontearz wrote...

funny

you guys remember when one of the devs said he "was playing a particular mission that would make Thane's fans VERY happy"?


what happened to that?

... eh?! News to me. *sighs* I really should make an effort to lurk in Thane's thread more. I keep finding myself distracted by Joker's and Vega's.

I'm guessing Bioware was impressed with all the effort that went into the "Cure Thane" project and decided to do something about his illness. Not sure if they'll just outright cure him, though.

This is how I think things may play out in regards to saving Thane. Shepard convinces him to undergo a lung transplant, but to do this, he must have both lungs from an otherwise healthy drell, namely Feron.

If Feron agrees, the transplant will inevitably kill him (can't much live without lungs, for obvious reasons), but give Thane much more quality time to spend with Shepard (if romanced) and his son.
 
*shrugs* Not sure if things will pan out this way, but if they do, I feel this route won't cheapen Thane's character, or at least not as much as if he was cured 100%. I dunno, just my thoughts.

Modifié par ACWolfe, 30 juillet 2011 - 02:13 .

[wildannie]

@ACWolfe I think that murdering Feron to save Thane *would* cheapen his character quite a bit :/
Feron's not likely to say, yeah, have my lungs.

[crimzontearz]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

I'm not focusing on the disease, I'm focusing on the writing. I already said the science doesn't really matter. What matters is they spent the game telling us it was inevitable. Neither Thane, nor our two doctors ever presented any viable alternatives to his death pre-LotSB.

Thane wasn't just suicidal. If he was he wouldn't have needed a disease to make him reckless. He simply accepted his death as an inevitability as a result of his disease and wanted to decide how he eventually went out.

Again, there's just as much 'proof' that we can bring the Virmire'd squaddie back (Rana survived, there could have been a bunker since we know bunkers exist in Mass Effect, you can bring people back to life, according to the Lazarus Project). I'm not talking about the how, I'm talking about the why.

are you kidding me?

sure he was not pointing a gun to his own head but  we know the tech is there, hell we have known since ME1 that the tech was there. Let's examin the writing points (and I'll even be nice and leave LotsB out)

1: We have been told the tech is there, and there are several missions in which we are faced with said tech. Shall we list them?
- Okeer's flash cloning tanks
- Miranda Herself is the epitome of genetic engineering and proof humans are VERY adept at gene splicing ( she has no mother)
-The collectors are basically genetically repurposed Protheans AND edi can immediately pinpoint genetic modifications made to them and  even proteic discrepancies
-Thane himself had his own eyes mutated so that he could see outside of his own visible  spectrum of light


All this to say it is silly to think Thane could not be cured Given the nature of his disease which would simply require a transplant (rremember he explains Kepral Syndrome is caused by humidity killing off his lung tissue so an external cause). ALL we know is that HE says it cannot be cured. Our docs don't even spend a single word on it........why do I point this out? It will be clear later.

2: He refuses to be seen by Mordin

He says specifically there is nothing a ship's sickbay can do. He is not stupid, he knows Mordin is on board and who he is yet he does not take advantage of it. So, now not only he has access to the tech, he now has access to a galacticly renown expert on the matter......and he turns it down. 

3: even if Mordin was not available with the money he had through his job and  his contacts in the Terminus it is more than plausible that he could have had his cloned tissue  implanted  upon realizing he had Kepral syndrome
 

Just to to reinforce #2


given these three points (unless you assume Thane is completely ignorant of all this) Thane obviously does not WANT to be cured.


why do I say that? Because he flat out admitted he came to terms with his death. He is not suicidal BUT he does not want to life any further...so why get cured right?

Now Thane has something to live for, either in Shepard, Kolyat or both. The story arch was not about him dying, it was about him not  wanting to live.


it is rather symple. If technology and availability is not a problem then willingness is.  I am not sure how I could be any more clear

[Homebound]

Rip drell mercenary's healthy lungs out.
Cure Thane's keplers syndrome.

[ThePwener]

Hellbound555 wrote...

Rip drell mercenary's healthy lungs out.
Cure Thane's keplers syndrome.

You obviously don't know how organ transplants work. And when have we seen a Drell mercenary?

[Homebound]

ThePwener wrote...

Hellbound555 wrote...

Rip drell mercenary's healthy lungs out.
Cure Thane's keplers syndrome.

You obviously don't know how organ transplants work. And when have we seen a Drell mercenary?

well its better than shrivel up and die.

[Golden Owl]

crimzontearz wrote...
............................

Now Thane has something to live for, either in Shepard, Kolyat or both. The story arch was not about him dying, it was about him not  wanting to live.

............................

THIS!...perfectly put crimzontearz.

[crimzontearz]

Golden Owl wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...
............................

Now Thane has something to live for, either in Shepard, Kolyat or both. The story arch was not about him dying, it was about him not  wanting to live.

............................

THIS!...perfectly put crimzontearz.

why thank you