1502 réponses à ce sujet

[Mike Laidlaw]

Let's be frank. To my understanding the "Bioware wants to appeal to the Call of Duty crowd" myth devloped like this:

• Greg Zeschuk comments in an interview that Bioware aspires to sell to a larger audience, and that numbers like Call of Duty's 10 million are the long-term goal.
• DAII's combat is, in fact,  faster, and more "actiony." Some RPG elements are removed (skills), and others are changed (iconic follower armor, rather than complete customization).
• Magical Alchemy happens and "Apparently Dragon Age only wants Call of Duty players to play their game." is the result.

In truth, what we would like is for there to be 10 million RPG fans out there, not to toss aside RPG fans. If anything, I suspect that we didn't put enough focus on stats, cross-class combos, and so on in our message, which would have helped.

And to be really honest, if we were dead-set on cutting RPG systems, we could have cut much, much deeper.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

kingjezza wrote...

How about we just stop trying to cater to simpletons at all, I'm sorry if people find that insulting but it's bleedin' annoying to constantly hear how the games will try to cater to the non thinking lazy crowd who can't be bothered to take the time to read a sentence or grasp the most basic of things.

I manage to get 60-90 minutes of gaming in 4-5 nights a week.  More on the weekends when I can.  I play a game like ME2 and I blast through a mission of two, get some story, and then move on to reading about new technology for work or writing.  With DAO loot festivals, I spend too much of my game time making sure the whole party is equiped, prepared, and ready to roll.  Comparing looted items to what I already have, moving things between characters, checking storage, on and on.  I have much better things to do in life than prepare to play a game while I'm playing the game. 

You're calling people who don't like to do that stupid and that's fine.  You can have your opinion.  But it's actually a question of time and goal management.  You can call it a dumbing down or a streamlining if you want, but DA2 is really a distillation of what's great about DAO.  I want spend more time having fun in a great story and less time with burly quanri, picking out pants.

[Tommy6860]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

Let's be frank. To my understanding the "Bioware wants to appeal to the Call of Duty crowd" myth devloped like this:

• Greg Zeschuk comments in an interview that Bioware aspires to sell to a larger audience, and that numbers like Call of Duty's 10 million are the long-term goal.
• DAII's combat is, in fact,  faster, and more "actiony." Some RPG elements are removed (skills), and others are changed (iconic follower armor, rather than complete customization).
• Magical Alchemy happens and "Apparently Dragon Age only wants Call of Duty players to play their game." is the result.

In truth, what we would like is for there to be 10 million RPG fans out there, not to toss aside RPG fans. If anything, I suspect that we didn't put enough focus on stats, cross-class combos, and so on in our message, which would have helped.

And to be really honest, if we were dead-set on cutting RPG systems, we could have cut much, much deeper.

I honestly don't know how much more Bioware can cut, before any vestiges of role playing in the series, is considered being more of an action/adventure game. Sales count hugely, and rightfully so, but DA:O on average is the better seller and grabbed an audience I bet Bioware thought they couldn't considering how well it sold on the consoles. Wouldn't logic state that, maybe, just maybe, going back to most of those elements (not the Warden's story perse) may be the way to go?

[Mike Laidlaw]

Tommy6860 wrote...
I honestly don't know how much more Bioware can cut, before any vestiges of role playing in the series, is considered being more of an action/adventure game. Sales count hugely, and rightfully so, but DA:O on average is the better seller and grabbed an audience I bet Bioware thought they couldn't considering how well it sold on the consoles. Wouldn't logic state that, maybe, just maybe, going back to most of those elements (not the Warden's story perse) may be the way to go?

My point was more that if we actually wanted to make an action-adventure game, we would have done so much more thoroughly.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

That's pretty much my goal. Always has been. Lots of people misinterpret "making the game easier to get into" as "stripping out the complexity" but I have never seen those two things as coupled.

If anything, DA's future is more complex, but more subtle and intuitive in how it's presented.

I like this so much.  So so much.  Complexity itself isn't bad.  It just belongs in the actual gameplay.

There is the mechanical complexity (compare item stats, keep or vendor a higher level item?  Do I go with weak gear now and wait for a drop, or buy good gear now and lose gold on the deal?) and then there's tactical or situational complexity (How do I keep DPS on the broodmother, keep healing my team, and DPS down the adds?  How do I kill a gorram archdemon, deal with massive adds, heal my NPC allies, and oh yeah, stay alive?  How do I kill five demons with four character when the fifth monster will continue to buff his buddies?) 

The former complexity is not fun.  The later complexity is fun. 

[mesmerizedish]

@RinpocheGoofyname: I think the former complexity is more fun than the latter. I think DA needs both, but it needs to be layered in such a way that a newbie knows enough to play on normal very easily and simply. But I need to be able to see all the complex numbers on Nightmare.

DAII attempted to do this, and they did the first part pretty well. They did the latter very poorly. They didn't oversimplify the game, but they did obfuscate the information. There was almost zero transparency with how all the stats were determined. Fireball does 65 damage, but there's Bo indication of how that's determined. That's the kind of thing that I, as a veteran RPG gamer, want and need to know.

[Waage25]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

G00N3R7883 wrote...

I'm all for more people playing RPGs. This is my favourite genre, the stories, the characters, the choices ... most of my favourite games of all time are RPGs. And I especially want more people to play Bioware RPGs, as your games make up a large chunk of my top 10.

My thought is this - you can talk about making the RPG genre more accessible to new players (and I hope you are honest about not dumbing down, although I could certainly give examples of mechanics that I think are more simple in ME/DA than they were in BG/NWN) - but have you also given any thought to how you could educate new players? Could you leave the RPG formula as it is, even make it more complex, and then do things, either inside or outside the game, to help new players get a better understanding of what RPGs are all about and what existing RPG fans love so much about them.

That's pretty much my goal. Always has been. Lots of people misinterpret "making the game easier to get into" as "stripping out the complexity" but I have never seen those two things as coupled.

If anything, DA's future is more complex, but more subtle and intuitive in how it's presented.

SO you say, but every new game have gotten "dumbed down" so far.

IN ME you lost combat options, Social skills, gear and so on and you limited the amount ofoptions  classes had.
In DA you lost item options, crafting, non combat skills, Tactical combat, camera options, Mods, Skill options (no dual wield warrior etc) and the ability to have any control of the story what so ever.

The Pure fact is that i only believe you are saying this because the PR people have told you it is the new buzz word to use to sell games. NOW you might not think that it is fair, but playing The Witcher 2 right after DA2 it showed me a GAME that did take somethings away from the first on, but ADDED a ton of new things.

It was more Accessible, but it wasn't less of a GAME. For every thing they removed they added something else and the things they added wasn't stupid. It is not a perfect game and the start of the game was to hard, but the fact is at least it was fun.

DA2 was BORING!!.

Now to be fair i did not mind the changes to ME2 because i never played it as an RPG because it kind of fails at being that, but it is a half decent PEWPEW shoot aliens in face game.

Modifié par Waage25, 05 août 2011 - 05:28 .

[Mike Laidlaw]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

@RinpocheGoofyname: I think the former complexity is more fun than the latter. I think DA needs both, but it needs to be layered in such a way that a newbie knows enough to play on normal very easily and simply. But I need to be able to see all the complex numbers on Nightmare.

Very much this.

DAII attempted to do this, and they did the first part pretty well. They did the latter very poorly. They didn't oversimplify the game, but they did obfuscate the information. There was almost zero transparency with how all the stats were determined. Fireball does 65 damage, but there's Bo indication of how that's determined. That's the kind of thing that I, as a veteran RPG gamer, want and need to know.

And yet we were more transparent than we were in Origins! Clearly we have more work to do.

[Mike Laidlaw]

Waage25 wrote...

The Pure fact is that i only believe you are saying this because the PR people have told you it is the new buzz word to use to sell games.

Oh, I'm quite sure PR would rather I not be in this thread at all.

[KennethAFTopp]

Mr. Laidlaw, I respect you, but I disagree with alot of what you say. I think you're focusing on the wrong things to move Dragon Age forward.

[ademska]

i'm sure he'll stop crying eventually, ken.

if i'm going to add anything remotely constructive to this thread, it's that the complexity and unconventionality of the plot in da2 was easily one of my favorite aspects of it, in the wake of legacy (which, don't get me wrong, i absolutely adore) and its more standard rpg plot fare, my hope going forward is that your vision for the dragon age universe continues to involve nuanced, non-traditional narratives.

the worldbuilding of thedas has been so thorough and enjoyable thus far that it'd be a shame to waste it on another all-the-nations-band-together-to-fend-off-ultimate-evil-esque plot. of course, since da2 was your baby in the first place, i've got every confidence this won't happen.

Modifié par ademska, 05 août 2011 - 05:40 .

[mesmerizedish]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

And yet we were more transparent than we were in Origins! Clearly we have more work to do.

Agreeing with me increases lifespan and virility, so you're good to go

But as to the part I've quoted: how so? In Origins, I saw that spell damage was X + Y*SP. In DAII, I saw that spell damage was Z. That's the sort of thing I'm talking about.

Also, the rules were a lot simpler in Origins. Armor was straight DR (I think?). Armor pen was subtractive with armor. Attack and defense were compared directly instead of these ratings that become percentages that decrease with level, the formulae for which were never shown to us. Origins almost didn't NEED transparency because its maths were so linear as to almost be common sense. DAII uses much more complicated math, and none of it is shown to the player.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

ishmaeltheCATFACE wrote...

@RinpocheGoofyname: I think the former complexity is more fun than the latter. I think DA needs both, but it needs to be layered in such a way that a newbie knows enough to play on normal very easily and simply. But I need to be able to see all the complex numbers on Nightmare.

I =wildly= prefer the later to the former.  :lol:  Time will tell I guess...

[Kothoses Rothenkisal]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

Waage25 wrote...

The Pure fact is that i only believe you are saying this because the PR people have told you it is the new buzz word to use to sell games.

Oh, I'm quite sure PR would rather I not be in this thread at all.

Haha more than likely.  I think what most people in the thread probably think but are not communicating quite so well is that they are only posting these opinions because you are here, so while the answers you are providing are good and interesting, dont feel you have to "defend" your self per say.  ITs good to hear that the points people brought up are up for being addressed, and guys keep in mind this is a person who has the ability to engineer the positive changes better than nearly anyone. 

The fact his thread is gaining so much attention is a real win for the community that resides here and outside as a whole so now its up to both sides to keep this level (maybe not quantity but certainly quality) of dialogue going forward.  

I am certainly a lot more excited for the potential of DA 3 and indirectly ME 3 and SW:ToR than I was prior to this discussion.  

I think when this thread finally loses its momentum it will form the basis of one of my videos, focusing on how small community interactions can easily snowball into big two way discussions that hopefully benifit both sides.  But that can only happen if neither side takes an advanced or a retreat posture in the debate.

We seem to have gotten the attention of a number of Bioware staff and some of the bigger gaming websites, so lets use this without bashing DA 2 further (that donkey is well and truley dead so put it down) lets hear what people want to see, everyone holds up origins as a shining beacon of hope but which features actually made Origins better, given that the aim is to make RPGs into a game that can be more of a pick up and play experience (especially though digital distribution)  how would you achieve that without oversimplifying and stripping down the RPG experience.

This whole discussion is an example of how powerful community/developer interaction can be plenty of people are reading it so lets make it a good one, hopefully if it gets shared around enough other game developers will see the benifit of such interactions too, and engage with their fanbases in the same direct way.

But that will only happen if the thread its self is deemed benificial so, drop the dead donkeys and focus on what would appeal to you rather than what you disliked.

Just my suggestion and opinion as always

[StingingVelvet]

Really great thread here. Happy to see the logical and mature discussions on both sides of the plate.

I think one area Dragon Age 2 suffered from was expectation. Like Deus Ex: Invisible War it was a sequel to a highly praised game that predominantly removed things, rather than enhance or change them. I know I personally was much more focused on what I had lost rather than what I had gained, which puts you immediately on the aggressive side of evaluation. When you play a game and love it you say "yes please more of that!" When the more ends up being less you can't help but be disappointed.

If I had to guess I would say DA3 will benefit from a better starting point with the fanbase. They will be looking for something more than DA2 and not necessarily DA:O (like Deus Ex 3). That alone should give you guys some leeway.

For me the four things outlined by Mr. Laidlaw are the four things I most want addressed, so I feel pretty good about the future.

[ipgd]

ademska wrote...

the worldbuilding of thedas has been so thorough and enjoyable thus far that it'd be a shame to waste it on another all-the-nations-band-together-to-fend-off-ultimate-evil-esque plot. of course, since da2 was your baby in the first place, i've got every confidence this won't happen.

Give me political fantasy, plx and ty

I'd much rather broker alliances with foreign dignitaries to solve Orlais's crippling raddish crisis than kill more darkspawn

[StingingVelvet]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

4. Follower customization

A mixed bag. Lots of folks liked unique looks for followers. Many more hated losing the ability to put new platemail on Aveline. Completely understandable, and likely aggrivated by finding platemail that your mage character would likely never be able to equip. Needs to change, but we'll cement how before talking in detail. Also not really addressable in a DLC, as there would be fundamental changes to the core game needed, which goes beyond the scope of what a DLC can deliver.

The problem I have, and I have mentioned this before and earned some spite from Mr. Gaider, is that I can't see the unique looks as anything but a visual asset.  Gameplay wise there is no way that unique looks trump customization.  To choose visual appeal over gameplay is always wrong in a videogame if you ask me.

That said I think there is a happy medium.  I know a lot of people will never be satisfied unless they have full "normal" customization, but if you offered full bodysuits for the companions versus individual armor pieces for the PC that might be a good happy medium.  Maybe make 10-15 armor suits for every companion, many of them sharing textures and styles to save on work, and then offer unseeable upgrades to them or perhaps allow them to use all the helmets, which would be turned off inside dialog and cutscenes.  That sounds like a good middleground to me which would allow you to design and plan for certain looks while also giving the player a feeling of customizing his companions.

You could also simply have upgrades offer more of a visual impact if you decide you must stick with the current system.  Also getting alternate cosumes earlier or more often would be good.

Either way there are directions to go in without returning to full customization, though from a gameplay perspective I really thing that is what you should do.

[KennethAFTopp]

ademska wrote...

i'm sure he'll stop crying eventually, ken.

I don't think it's crying, it's about explaining his point of view and his thoughts on the dragon age franchise, and that is very cool, he does say alot of good things, but but even Legacy which is the best thing in DA2 and the best DLC of both games, still don't feel quite as good as DA:O mainly because it has the same problems as DAII has. Now I think someone said once that DAII didn't move the franchise forward, but moved it sideways and I agree with that, and if they keep going down this path I am not sure I am interested in the next Dragon Age game. I'll keep my eye on it but still the thoughts and opinions compiled here does not make me excited about the next step in the Dragon Age Franchise.

[jds1bio]

Waage25 wrote...

SO you say, but every new game have gotten "dumbed down" so far.

IN ME you lost combat options, Social skills, gear and so on and you limited the amount ofoptions  classes had.
In DA you lost item options, crafting, non combat skills, Tactical combat, camera options, Mods, Skill options (no dual wield warrior etc) and the ability to have any control of the story what so ever.

The Pure fact is that i only believe you are saying this because the PR people have told you it is the new buzz word to use to sell games. NOW you might not think that it is fair, but playing The Witcher 2 right after DA2 it showed me a GAME that did take somethings away from the first on, but ADDED a ton of new things.

It was more Accessible, but it wasn't less of a GAME. For every thing they removed they added something else and the things they added wasn't stupid. It is not a perfect game and the start of the game was to hard, but the fact is at least it was fun.

DA2 was BORING!!.

Now to be fair i did not mind the changes to ME2 because i never played it as an RPG because it kind of fails at being that, but it is a half decent PEWPEW shoot aliens in face game.

I respect your space to speak your opinion, but I think your opinion is presented inconsistently when remarking on how the games have been "dumbed down".  Saying you don't mind that one game was a PEWPEW shoot aliens in the face game, while said game was interpersonally complex AND had many more abilities attached to gameplay than "shoot target in face", makes you run the risk of looking like your own sphere of awareness has been dumbed down, without making it more accessible. 

Since this is something we are asking our favorite games to avoid becoming, we should be able to ask it of ourselves also.

Modifié par jds1bio, 05 août 2011 - 06:14 .

[kingjezza]

You're calling people who don't like to do that stupid and
that's fine.  You can have your opinion.  But it's actually a question
of time and goal management.  You can call it a dumbing down or a
streamlining if you want, but DA2 is really a distillation of what's
great about DAO.  I want spend more time having fun in a great story and
less time with burly quanri, picking out pants.

Just to point out incase my post came across badly, I wasn't refering to  people like you as stupid. I was only talking about those who couldn't get past the character creation process in Origins, it's a fairly simple process and all laid out easily enough, stupid might even be the wrong word, lazy would maybe be more apt. My point was basically Origins is extremely accessible as it is to all sorts of gamers, it doesn't need dumbing down to attract any sort of new player.

Games like Dragon Age aren't suddenly going to appeal to a different crowd of gamers because a few numbers/skills etc are removed, it's not so much about complexity, rather the type of game it is. A game like this will never get the numbers Call of Duty does and it has seemed like at times the fans of the first game have basically been pushed to one side in some sort of quest to attract new fans and in all honesty I don't think these new fans they want actually exist for the most part.

I do respect Mike Laidlaw for coming on here and putting his view across, Bioware are pretty good at interacting with the fans of their games. I'll freely admit to basically wanting more of the same, I do want Origins mark 2, maybe tweaked here and there but the game had strong foundations that I feel could have been built on, rather than the direction they chose to take. I'm not convinced Mike and crew want to make the same game I want, which is fair enough, it might just be a case of moving on and playing something else.

Back to the all consuming Football Manager it is.

Modifié par kingjezza, 05 août 2011 - 06:15 .

[TEWR]

One of the reasons why Call of Duty captivates its audience so well is the adrenaline rush feeling people get when they play on multiplayer. At least that's what my friends and I have come to agree on since we play Call of Duty almost religiously.

If Dragon Age had an adrenaline rush feeling in the storyline and the combat (which means the combat needs to become incredibly tactical), it would help garner more fans.

Of course, that's not the only way the DA series could grab new fans. Most of the people I know however don't like fantasy, so it wouldn't really matter.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 05 août 2011 - 06:19 .

[Zjarcal]

Waage25 wrote...
... but the fact is at least it was fun.

DA2 was BORING!!.

Click here please.

[Wyndham711]

I'm struggling to find anything to agree with in terms of DA2's general design. I pretty much abhor every single design change they made in comparison to Origins. Now perhaps it is possible that some of the changes, in the form that they materialized in DA2, were just so badly implemented that the reason for my dislike is simply more in the implementation than in the vision itself.

Though on many accounts I doubt if that could ever be the case. For instance, no matter how expertly you implement player VO I'll still think it to be a bad choice in comparison to what we had in Origins.

[nitefyre410]

Zjarcal wrote...

Waage25 wrote...
... but the fact is at least it was fun.

DA2 was BORING!!.

Click here please.

Post of the DAY  IMO ... thank you  and bravo