1502 réponses à ce sujet

[ct1615]

what, you don't like Fox News?

anyone who does not like fox news is a communist or a terrorist!...or both!!!

[ScotGaymer]

@Stoic.

Ya know people like you annoy me.

Earlier I posted a post that turned into a bit of a Wall'oText post because Mike seemed to me to be misunderstanding why there was a in general negative reaction to DA2; in that he seemed to be of the opinion that a lot of the detractors of DA2 seem to be hating DA2 simply because it isnt Origins.
My post was to hopefully correct that assumption that this is not the case.

And then you post.

More or less confirming Mike's original opinion.

Nice Job Breaking It, Hero!

[Anarya]

Adobe Amena wrote...

This is my first post on this forum, and may or may not be my only one.  Not that I don't think the community around here seems pretty cool.  I'm just antisocial.

Anyway, Mr. Laidlaw?  Mike?  Mike Laidlaw?  Layer-Of-Laws?

(Whichever.)

So: I was not planning on getting Legacy, as I was majorly disappointed with DA2.  I will be getting it now.  This is due entirely to the fact that you've engaged with the community here in a real way.  Thanks for that.

I would quote a post from another forum outlining all the issues I had with DA2, but alas, I see no spoiler button, and if such a function exists, I am crap enough with code to balls it up.  As several problems I and many others have with the game are firmly in spoiler territory, I wish there was somewhere we could Q&A that allowed spoilers.  Also, that site seems to be temporarily down.  Sigh.

Anyway, thanks for letting us know you're listening!:D:D

There are several feedback threads in the forums where you can put your review with spoilers intact, just not in this particular forum. Try the Campaign Quests &whatever-it-is forum, I think there's a feedback thread there. Or put it in the constructive criticism thread in this forum but dance around actual spoilers.

Modifié par Anarya, 05 août 2011 - 09:43 .

[Kothoses Rothenkisal]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

stoicsentry2 wrote...

Frankly, they have already admitted how incompetent they were in several regards. They were surprised that constant area re-use was an issue, they didn't realize that fans of DA:O preferred to have choices that mattered, they were flabbergasted when people purchased their sequel expecting.... a sequel.

To go back to the original topic, this kind of post is very destructive to developer feedback. Having your words thrown in your face with a healthy dose of hyperbole (I don't recall admitting incompetence at any point in this discussion, nor have I ever actually been flabbergasted in my life that I can recall), rarely makes for spritely dinner conversation.

Thus enforcing the original point that dialogue can be critical and still constructive, I doubt anyone can look even at DA 2 and claim incompetance, misguided efforts in some regards yes, disconnects between what people wanted yes, but incompetence or spite are both silly accusations to make and ruin the tone of the discussion.

Please if you are going to engage in debate with the developers lets keep it constructive both sides, a LOT of good points have come from both Bioware staff and fellow forumites in this thread and it really emphasises what I mean by making two way engagement possible.

Go watch my videos start with episode 1 and 2 *nod nod* the message in them is one that will help you get the feedback and perhaps even the changes you want in the future

I  am sure everyone understands there were frustrations with DA 2, that horse has been flogged and while its not a case of pretend it never happened, the stage is now set to move beyond that and discuss what would make DA 3 into the great game it could and should be.

[Brockololly]

tmp7704 wrote...

Watch out, there's throat-ripping fangirls lurking around the thread.

They'll rip your throat out Khal Drogo style

[FieryDove]

tmp7704 wrote...

[Watch out, there's throat-ripping fangirls lurking around the thread.

I have two Chow-Chows. nuf said.

Besides being a silent/secret fangrl is sometimes the best, it surprises the heck out of them when they find out.

[Anarya]

FitScotGaymer wrote...

@Stoic.

Ya know people like you annoy me.

Earlier I posted a post that turned into a bit of a Wall'oText post because Mike seemed to me to be misunderstanding why there was a in general negative reaction to DA2; in that he seemed to be of the opinion that a lot of the detractors of DA2 seem to be hating DA2 simply because it isnt Origins.
My post was to hopefully correct that assumption that this is not the case.

And then you post.

More or less confirming Mike's original opinion.

Nice Job Breaking It, Hero!

You, I like. Hurray for civil discourse.

[stoicsentry2]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

stoicsentry2 wrote...

Frankly, they have already admitted how incompetent they were in several regards. They were surprised that constant area re-use was an issue, they didn't realize that fans of DA:O preferred to have choices that mattered, they were flabbergasted when people purchased their sequel expecting.... a sequel.

To go back to the original topic, this kind of post is very destructive to developer feedback. Having your words thrown in your face with a healthy dose of hyperbole (I don't recall admitting incompetence at any point in this discussion, nor have I ever actually been flabbergasted in my life that I can recall), rarely makes for spritely dinner conversation.

With that said, let's look at this realistically: you have our money + most of us didn't get the product we were looking for.

So I appreciate your position, but I hope you understand mine as well. Many of us are working in jobs where we either honor our bargains by delivering quality products and services, or we issue refunds. In this case, you failed to honor your bargain and I have no shot at getting a refund. I am simply told to suck it up and move on.

To expect to get patted on the back and be treated with kid gloves for doing that is ludicrous. I am terribly sorry, I appreciate that you work hard... but try walking a mile in the shoes of the people who feel ripped off and have no recourse.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Some thoughts and questons for Mr Laidlaw...

A couple of minutes ago I was trying to discuss specialisms in the comments on the recent activity page. This is probably a better place for that.

The way they are handled now is rather vague in their origin. By that I mean, how did the PC learn them? In DA2 we just get specialism points and assign them. I like the way it was done by DA:O in which you had to do a quest or learn it from a companion. That way the specialism makes sense. For an example: In DA2 you could become a blood mage, but I have no idea who taught me that. Nor do I understand that every blood mage seem to be able to resurrect a corpse or call a demon and Hawke can never do these things. I would also like that my class is recognized by the game and in dialogues. For an example... It is odd that my PC needs to tell she is a mage when she threw fireballs a few minutes ago, carries a staff and wears a mage's outfit. When Hawke is on his way to the top in Act I she's a mage and not under the protection of Meredith and she's never attacked by templars or thrown into custody for being a mage. There are even merchants specialized in selling gear to apostates. All these things feel odd. Am I making sense?

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 05 août 2011 - 09:53 .

[stoicsentry2]

FitScotGaymer wrote...

@Stoic.

Ya know people like you annoy me.

Earlier I posted a post that turned into a bit of a Wall'oText post because Mike seemed to me to be misunderstanding why there was a in general negative reaction to DA2; in that he seemed to be of the opinion that a lot of the detractors of DA2 seem to be hating DA2 simply because it isnt Origins.

Nonsense. It should have been a sequel and it wasn't.

My post was to hopefully correct that assumption that this is not the case.

And then you post.

More or less confirming Mike's original opinion.

I apologize that my opinion is not the same as yours.

[Anarya]

stoicsentry2 wrote...

With that said, let's look at this realistically: you have our money + most of us didn't get the product we were looking for.

So I appreciate your position, but I hope you understand mine as well. Many of us are working in jobs where we either honor our bargains by delivering quality products and services, or we issue refunds. In this case, you failed to honor your bargain and I have no shot at getting a refund. I am simply told to suck it up and move on.

To expect to get patted on the back and be treated with kid gloves for doing that is ludicrous. I am terribly sorry, I appreciate that you work hard... but try walking a mile in the shoes of the people who feel ripped off and have no recourse.

I appreciate that you felt let down by the game but seriously, when do you EVER get refunds for games (or movies for that matter) that you ended up disliking?

And please define the "bargain" that Bioware apparently failed to honor. It wasn't what you thought it was going to be, apparently, but that's on you and your expectations.

[Bryy_Miller]

stoicsentry2 wrote...
So I appreciate your position, but I hope you understand mine as well. Many of us are working in jobs where we either honor our bargains by delivering quality products and services, or we issue refunds.

You can get a refund, you just cancel your pre-order or return it without opening it.

To expect to get a refund of any kind for something that you just don't like is naive. We're not talking about rotten food at a dining place here. 

[nitefyre410]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I can understand the need to make gameplay more engaging, but it shouldn't be at the expense of the lore. Giving enemy mages the abilty to teleport when it was explicitly stated that teleportation is not possible is...questionable, at best. Abominations rising from the ground (I'm sure everyone remembers a certain scene involving a certain Knight-captain and his recruit) when they're the result of demonic possesion is also careless. I don't know how the writers feel, but I'd be offended were I one of them. The gameplay should fit the lore, otherwise there's little point in creating such in the first place - the enemy mage ability to throw up a barrier for protection is a good example of where gameplay meets lore.

the "teleportation" was explained that they tried to make the mages move from A to B really fast, but poor implementation made it look like teleportation.

Rogues had it worse. Their smoke bomb should've covered a good portion of the field when they used backstab. It would've made it easier to tolerate.

And to be fair, I have no clue how they could've handled Abominations in that instance as enemies and had it make sense. Having them run towards Hawke would just make it seem like he's got a tracking beacon on his body.

 

Well since we are on the topic of combat: 


The Charge/ cleave needs to  two separate attacks- Warriors  must have  a way to  close  on a ranged target. If there was one thing that drove me nuts in DA:O was when there was Mage or Archer giving my party hell and I could not GET over to them in time to interrupt. Reduce the range of the change some what - make animation a run with warrior leaning in with the shoulder but it still has to have some  speed and force or the impact is going to be unbelievable.  Allow warriors to use pole- arms  would be great and add nice little touch to combat.   Also give the warriors a different energy mechanic that builds from getting hit and hitting their target.

Cleave is a cleave  if I swing  6ft  two handed sword  razor sharp sword as hard as I can  at you. You and your two buddies next you are getting cut. Now what you could do  is    decrease damage for the adjacent targets and only hit say two mobs adjacent to the main mob.  What best not happen is going back those god awful animations they used in Origins with that winded up... Anyone who did that in combat... DEAD.     Cause if those animations come back...“we shall be having words with thee”

Rogues - are all about speed, misdirection and fighting dirty. No rogue is going stand there while warrior winds up to hit with the big ole'  warhammer , axe, sword,  sword and shield.   Once you have the back stab in combat there should be three key animations the stun hit or counter/parrry to get the target off balance, the move to back either roll, a step around and then the  attack itself.    Giving the Rogues a smoke bomb that's AOE stun was pretty useful means of crowd control. Better use of stealth for Rogues would be nice - how useful is stealth when even if you tell your party hold at a safe out of aggro range distance. Mobs aggro and break your stealth.


They have work do when It comes to combat casue saying the DA 2  combat was better than DA:O is like it being 120 degrees out but it only being 110 in the shade.
A lot what hurt DA 2 in my eyes were not the changes but lack of attention to details went making the changes. Artstyle is fine – its not cartoonish nor is it anywhere close to resembling an Anime .

[stoicsentry2]

jds1bio wrote...

stoicsentry2 wrote...

Those of us who pre-ordered the game
did so because we trusted Bioware. I hope you recognize that this trust
is gone now. This is the risk we took in trusting you: our money
upfront, in exchange for promises.

Through either malicious
intent or stunning incompetence, we were betrayed. Getting out the
pitchforks might not be the best way to "save" the series, but it sure
makes me feel better about flushing nearly a hundred dollars down the
toilet on DA2.

Thank you for speaking with us, and good luck at
restoring trust among the fanbase. You have your work cut out for you
now, as pre-orders for DA3 will drop faster than the stock market.

You pre-ordered the game because you wanted to play it the day it came out.  Besides being able to play the game on day one, what else were you promised with your pre-order, exactly?

Like I said in a previous post, this kind of post tells the community nothing about what you didn't like about the game.  It only tells us how you prefer to deal with feelings of buyer's remorse. 

And since you can't seem to decide on the root cause of the betrayal, I'll give you a helpful hint - it's neither of
the two causes you suggest.

One question: is this what you really want - the number DA3 pre-orders to drop faster than the stock market?

No, here's what I want: quality for the money, a product that doesn't feel rushed out the door without concern for the fanbase of the original title. Not too much to ask for.

Here's where you say: "then give constructive criticism!"

I have. Numerous times. Why you think people "owe" them any more constructive criticism than that is beyond me... they have tons of it all over the forums. If you weren't satisfied, it's not your responsibility to fix their mess. It is THEIR responsbility to do that.

People keep saying to be civil, fine, I'm all for that. But that is a two way street, that's what you're all missing. For example, civility is making a promise, then keeping it. Bioware broke their promise of a sequel.. this is well established. Civility is not belittling the fanbase... which Bioware has suddenly started to do...

I will take a less aggressive approach if you would like me to do so. Just remember, as previously mentioned, civility is a two way street. Bioware needs to live up to that, just as they used to...

They have one last chance with many of us. IF they make another broken game and insult the fans who don't like it, then all bets are off. Good luck.

[nitefyre410]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

stoicsentry2 wrote...

Frankly, they have already admitted how incompetent they were in several regards. They were surprised that constant area re-use was an issue, they didn't realize that fans of DA:O preferred to have choices that mattered, they were flabbergasted when people purchased their sequel expecting.... a sequel.

To go back to the original topic, this kind of post is very destructive to developer feedback. Having your words thrown in your face with a healthy dose of hyperbole (I don't recall admitting incompetence at any point in this discussion, nor have I ever actually been flabbergasted in my life that I can recall), rarely makes for spritely dinner conversation.

 

Well played  sir, well played indead  *applause*

[Alyka]

Brockololly wrote...

Johnny Jaded wrote...
I'm sure I'm not the only one who would like to see a return of the leather-bound book and scroll effect of Origins. Or at least a GUI that's more in keeping with the art style shown in the cutscenes and loading screens. More importantly, one that actually feels suitable to a fantasy RPG.

Whilst on the subject of the GUI, the character portraits, health and mana/stamina bars in DA2 felt very sub-optimal. While they weren't as obtrusive as I had thought they were going to be, the bottom left corner still felt cluttered and the screen would have been more balanced had they been in the top left corner as they were in Origins.

Yup, DA2's GUI and menu screens were astoundingly uninspired, boring and visually out of place. Especially considering its an RPG and you'll end up in menus a fair amount of time, why not spruce them up? Instead of a (difficult to read) sci fi-like black backgrounds with dark orange text, why not add stuff like Hawke's desk and letters actually look like a desk with letters on it? Or a map that could practically be used as a map?

And the clunky character portraits/ health bars look ripped right out of Jade Empire. I just prefer that stuff towards the top of my screen and not cluttering up the bottom, which is already occupied by the bar.

Agreed.I think they should revert the character portraits/hp and mp bars back to DA:O style.
The codex in Origins was okay, but it wasn't improved upon much in DAII.
Here's how I think it should be done:
-
How am I suppose to know which entry is new if the flag is at the
bottom of a long list when I'm scrolling down, if it disappears when
it's highlighted? Solution: Keep the flag there until I actually hit "Mark as read".This feature doesn't even work in DAII.So, why is it there?
-
When I hit the back button to exit the codex and then return, the list
of codices does not close.Instead, I have to scroll all the way up
through each entry to close the different sections so I can open a new
section(ie: Lore, Characters, etc.). Solution: Let it close all sections when you exit the codex.

[stoicsentry2]

Anarya wrote...

stoicsentry2 wrote...

With that said, let's look at this realistically: you have our money + most of us didn't get the product we were looking for.

So I appreciate your position, but I hope you understand mine as well. Many of us are working in jobs where we either honor our bargains by delivering quality products and services, or we issue refunds. In this case, you failed to honor your bargain and I have no shot at getting a refund. I am simply told to suck it up and move on.

To expect to get patted on the back and be treated with kid gloves for doing that is ludicrous. I am terribly sorry, I appreciate that you work hard... but try walking a mile in the shoes of the people who feel ripped off and have no recourse.

I appreciate that you felt let down by the game but seriously, when do you EVER get refunds for games (or movies for that matter) that you ended up disliking?


And please define the "bargain" that Bioware apparently failed to honor. It wasn't what you thought it was going to be, apparently, but that's on you and your expectations.

Refunds: Never (or almost never) when it comes to new games. This makes trusting a game company much more difficult, since the product is either love it or deal with it. Therefore, a wonderful company like Bioware needs to take the trust that they have earned over the years more seriously. They took it for granted and it blew up in their face.

Bargain: Dragon Age 2 is not a sequel to Dragon Age origins. That is the promise they broke. If it was an entirely new game/series, people probably wouldn't have been quite so irritated. For them to then come out and say "har har those people who don't like it were expecting DAO:2, har har" is just icing on the cake. Those were completely unacceptable comments. Unacceptable.

Come on Bioware, fix your mistakes. <3

Looking around for people that are going to attack me for being uncivil....

[Siansonea]

*popping into topic to leave her two cents worth*

I didn't like Origins at all. I started one playthrough, and didn't finish it. Just wasn't my thing, I couldn't get into it.

I liked DA2 a lot. I played through it four times, with three Mages and a Warrior. It was a lot of fun. I did not think the game was perfect. I didn't love the reused environments that have been discussed to death. I wasn't fond of the parachuting enemies. But neither of those things broke the game for me. I still enjoyed it a lot. Why? Because I liked Hawke. I liked Aveline. I liked Isabela. Heck, I even liked Anders and Merrill, even though they don't have a lick of common sense between them. Give me interesting characters and an engaging story, and I'll come back for more. Gameplay stuff is what it is, combat is not something I care about or focus on, I just get through it to get back to the story.

My biggest critique of the game will always be story-related, not anything to with gameplay. To me, the biggest WTF moment was when Orsino did his final act in the game. It just seemed like an odd choice for that character given what had gone before, and an odd moment for that character to do something like that even if there had been some seeds planted earlier. I also thought Grace was crazy, and I didn't like the "inevitability" of her storyline. But there were plenty of stories and characters that I did like, so all in all, I can't say I'm unhappy with the game at all.

P.S.: I liked Legacy for the most part, but did not enjoy the boss fight. I sure wish I had a "skip combat" button for moments like those.

[Bryy_Miller]

stoicsentry2 wrote...
Bioware broke their promise of a sequel.. this is well established. 

For someone who understands that other people's opinions exist, you sure do think yours is the only one that matters.

[stoicsentry2]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

stoicsentry2 wrote...
Bioware broke their promise of a sequel.. this is well established. 

For someone who understands that other people's opinions exist, you sure do think yours is the only one that matters.

When it comes to my experience with the game, naturally, it's only my opinion that can count. Same with you or with anyone else. If you love something enough, it doesn't matter what others think.

Nevertheless, I do believe there is a strong factual basis to support the thesis that you are responding to. This has been hashed out for many months now, but you're free to disagree if you think that DA2 was a genuine sequel then that is your opinion... just not a well supported one, IMHO.

[ScotGaymer]

@Anarya.

Sorry I didnt mean to be rude but honestly... Why cant he at least be civil about his dissapointment?

@Stoic.

Echoing what I said to Anarya. Why cant you be civil about your dissapointment?

[Bryy_Miller]

stoicsentry2 wrote...
 If you love something enough, it doesn't matter what others think. 

1) Willingly throwing logic and civility out the window in favor of hyperbole and strawmen is never a constructive idea.

2) It always matters what others think; otherwise, how can you possibly come to a resolution?

3) This is a video game.

Modifié par Bryy_Miller, 05 août 2011 - 10:08 .

[Anarya]

stoicsentry2 wrote...

Refunds: Never (or almost never) when it comes to new games. This makes trusting a game company much more difficult, since the product is either love it or deal with it. Therefore, a wonderful company like Bioware needs to take the trust that they have earned over the years more seriously. They took it for granted and it blew up in their face.

Bargain: Dragon Age 2 is not a sequel to Dragon Age origins. That is the promise they broke. If it was an entirely new game/series, people probably wouldn't have been quite so irritated. For them to then come out and say "har har those people who don't like it were expecting DAO:2, har har" is just icing on the cake. Those were completely unacceptable comments. Unacceptable.

Come on Bioware, fix your mistakes. <3

Looking around for people that are going to attack me for being uncivil....

This post is entirely civil so as long as you preserve that tone I don't think anyone's going to come flying out of the wings and attack you.

On the sequel issue: I suppose it boils down to what you feel a sequel constitutes. It was said multiple times before release that Dragon Age is the story of...the Dragon Age. It's not the story of the Warden & co. Therefore it is a sequel, it's just not a direct sequel of the Warden's adventures, but I don't see how you could possibly claim not to have known that when you preordered, considering 1. the amount of advertising prominently featuring both Hawke and Kirkwall, 2. the demo, and 3. the amount of information floating around direct from the devs that gave a basic outline of what the game was all about.

It's fine to have criticisms of the game, I mean I have them myself, but ranting at Mike for maliciously ripping you off, and then issuing a nebulous threat about how there will be an uprising of the playerbase if the dev team doesn't bend to your wishes is both ridiculous and counterproductive.

[Realmzmaster]

ct1615 wrote...

you know I may be in the minority here but I have no respect for anyone's opnion but my own (most people are F!@$ing idiots while I am rather intellgent) so I must state...Dragon Age II is a better game then Dragon Age

While I do like RPGs I simply did not care for DA:O.  Bioware ripped of the story from lord of the rings and the whole grey warden thing is just Bioware rehashing the spirit monk / spectre crap they have been using since jedi in KOTOR.  Bioware pushing Dragon Age as the spirtual succesor to Black Isles Studios Baldurs Gate is crap too.  DA was no where as good story wise, in fact the story sucked.  The graphics sucked, everything was grey.  The weapons system sucked (weapons changed stats based on the level you got them at? WTF?!), most of the party memebers sucked (outside of morrigan and allistar). 

Dragon Age 2 has its faults, many have been mentioned already, but in fareness....the game looks and plays better and the quests are better written.  The story has a better feel and moves at a better pace with a talking lead. 

Frankly neither game compares to the Witcher 2 or Mass Effect 2 and I am always shocked when people list dragon age I as a top RPG.  

Bioware has made two great space RPGs (KOTOR & ME2) that can stand up with any RPGs out there but they have put out a lot of mediocre stuff to...dragon age1, mass effect 1, jade empire

Baldur's Gate 1 & 2 are Bioware games. Bioware was the developer of both. Black Isle and Interplay were the publishers not the developers.
Black Isle were the developers for Icewind Dale 1 & 2 using the Infinity Engine developed by  ... wait for it ...  Bioware!
So Bioware was pushing Dragon Age as the spiritual successor to its own games.

[stoicsentry2]

FitScotGaymer wrote...

@Anarya.

Sorry I didnt mean to be rude but honestly... Why cant he at least be civil about his dissapointment?

@Stoic.

Echoing what I said to Anarya. Why cant you be civil about your dissapointment?

Having attempted to play it again, I think the thing that really stuck with me was this feeling that the product truly was a middle finger to the core of fans. That's just how I feel. Over and over again, for all the reasons you're well aware of by now.

But even that, ultimately... it's not a huge deal of course.

It really compounded problems when Bioware started speaking out, all those interviews they gave.. Again, we all know what kind of remarks they made about the fans. We don't need to go over that again. 

Finally, given the overwhelming negative publicity, I really thought Bioware would do something to "make good" for the mistakes. Instead, they just gave us DLC of every kind (items and now a story one), and sold their DA2 t-shirts, etc, etc, etc.

IMHO, a more genuine attempt to apologize would have been all I needed. ACTIONS, not words. Maybe Legacy is a bit of that, but do you think I'm shelling out a single more dime on this franchise right now? No, not right now, no way! I don't feel like I ever got that, thus, yes, I'm having a hard time being civil when a dev tells me he needs me to be more 'constructive.'

(Correction: I need YOU to be more constructive... lol)  

Modifié par stoicsentry2, 05 août 2011 - 10:10 .