1502 réponses à ce sujet

[nitefyre410]

Stanley Woo wrote...

I take the treatment of our developers by our community very seriously. While I don't expect that we will always agree on things, nor do I expect the community to always like what we have to say, to agree with us all the time, or even to like us even a little bit. What I do expect is that, regardless of our differences and preferences and tolerances, that the community treat our developers with respect. Not even friendliness, bowing and scraping, or deferential treatment, just the plain old-fashioned common decency and respect you would give anyone you are talking to in person.

The anonymity of the internet is no excuse to be rude, juvenile, or insulting to anyone, let alone the developers you want to listen to you and perhaps agree with you. You can hate, you can whinge, you can complain, you can lament, you can question. But you will not disrespect our developers. I hope I am crystal clear on this.

shame that a mod had to come in here and say that.

[Redcoat]

I don't really agree with that article at all...it seems to assume that A: developers cannot tell the difference between blind hatred and actual constructive criticism, and B: are always going to obey what the feedback suggests.

I'm sure everyone knows the saying, "The customer is always right." Often this is taken to mean, "The customer is entitled to be an ass," which they aren't, but what it really means is that the customer's opinion is always valid. If I walk into a restaurant and order a steak that ends up tasting like sawdust, no restaurant that wants to stay in business and attract customers would tell me, "That's your problem, you just have no taste!"

[Saintthanksgiving]

The original discussion here was about the relationship between the community and the developers... and how that relationship will affect the franchise moving forward.... right?  Because somehow this thread went into outer space.

I admit that I have spent the last few months crucifying any Dev who dare to speak publicly about DA2, but this thread isn't about personal problems with DA2, and it's not a repository for constructive criticism on whatever failing irked you the most.

It's about communication.  It's about relationships.  It's about Teamwork.

Let the war continue on every other thread... let this one be our Switzerland.

Why dont we get back to building relationships between the community and the people we are looking to for entertainment... Fundamentally.

-The Champion

[Kothoses Rothenkisal]

nitefyre410 wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

I take the treatment of our developers by our community very seriously. While I don't expect that we will always agree on things, nor do I expect the community to always like what we have to say, to agree with us all the time, or even to like us even a little bit. What I do expect is that, regardless of our differences and preferences and tolerances, that the community treat our developers with respect. Not even friendliness, bowing and scraping, or deferential treatment, just the plain old-fashioned common decency and respect you would give anyone you are talking to in person.

The anonymity of the internet is no excuse to be rude, juvenile, or insulting to anyone, let alone the developers you want to listen to you and perhaps agree with you. You can hate, you can whinge, you can complain, you can lament, you can question. But you will not disrespect our developers. I hope I am crystal clear on this.

shame that a mod had to come in here and say that.

One or two persons misguided attempt at "humour" should not be allowed to Tarnish such wonderful debate that we have been having in this thread.

The fact is this thread otherwise a good example of the way communtiy and developer can engage needs to not be lost, especially as it is getting offsite coverage now too.

I think most of us can agree that it has been wonderful having multiple Bioware staff in here having a frank exchange and discussion of ideas and I hope THAT continues.

But its up to us to make sure it does so step to it

[nitefyre410]

Kothoses Rothenkisal wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

I take the treatment of our developers by our community very seriously. While I don't expect that we will always agree on things, nor do I expect the community to always like what we have to say, to agree with us all the time, or even to like us even a little bit. What I do expect is that, regardless of our differences and preferences and tolerances, that the community treat our developers with respect. Not even friendliness, bowing and scraping, or deferential treatment, just the plain old-fashioned common decency and respect you would give anyone you are talking to in person.

The anonymity of the internet is no excuse to be rude, juvenile, or insulting to anyone, let alone the developers you want to listen to you and perhaps agree with you. You can hate, you can whinge, you can complain, you can lament, you can question. But you will not disrespect our developers. I hope I am crystal clear on this.

shame that a mod had to come in here and say that.

One or two persons misguided attempt at "humour" should not be allowed to Tarnish such wonderful debate that we have been having in this thread.

The fact is this thread otherwise a good example of the way communtiy and developer can engage needs to not be lost, especially as it is getting offsite coverage now too.

I think most of us can agree that it has been wonderful having multiple Bioware staff in here having a frank exchange and discussion of ideas and I hope THAT continues.

But its up to us to make sure it does so step to it

absolutely   -

[FieryDove]

Stanley Woo wrote...

 I hope I am crystal clear on this.

We have been Woo'ed. The end is near.

Modifié par FieryDove, 05 août 2011 - 11:48 .

[b1322]

Okay, so here it goes:

The reason why I disliked DA2 are these: I play as a female Havke and I think that her posture, voice, the way she answered all came of as was she a bit "cheap" and thats when I compaire to DAO where my warden had more grace, especielly when it came to being in a romance. I felt that in DA2 you practically had to beg the LI to sleep with you where as in DAO the men (LI) would woo my warden so I didnt have to beg at all. This is also why I belive that DA2 was aimed more towards teenage fans who might like such things but I am 32 female and I like it when a man is a man and I might be oldfashioned but I liked that I didnt have to beg in DAO.

The menu and the skilltree was also much better in DAO, it actually felt more complex and useless in DA2.

I liked Legacy and could feel some of the improvements. And I really appreciate that Bioware takes the time to listen and answer our feedback, thank you! :-)

[vallore]

Personally one of the things I believe it would have benefit the game greatly would be if Hawke had a more personal story; as it was, I felt his story was more about Hawke the  adventurer than Hawke the person.

Allow me to explain: imagine if the first part of the game was  about Hawke discovering Kirkwall, (with the advantage that the city was new for both Hawke and the player). Besides the work Hawke had to do for the smuggler/mercenary, it could have also include a number of related stories about of Hawke making friends and allies as well as enemies and rivals, perhaps even about Hawke meeting someone to romance that wasn’t  a companion, (in a city based game, such could work).

Now, this would have been very traditional stuff, but it had clear advantages: this would make the city feel much more alive, imo, and the player would have been given good reasons why Hawke would care for the city, as the city would not be just a place, but the faces of those his character had forged bounds ;with . (And I feel that that could have been useful,later on the game).

Perhaps more importantly, with a personal story going on, (how would those friendships and rivalries would evolve, later on? This could have been the glue that the 3 main parts of the game lacked, imo ). Further , the rigidity of the decisions about the greater events of the game would have weight less, as the players could have experienced greater freedom and decisions that matter, if at a more personal level.

Now sure, the game allowed for some of these, “lower level” decisions already but, at least to me, they felt as if they were usually about disconnected and fortuitous events with strangers. As such they lacked the kind of emotional charge and sense of accomplishment they could have if instead, they were happening to people that Hawke knew and had some kind of relationship going on with, as part of a recognizable story, separated from that of the main events, connecting the entire game.

Oh, and did I said how I really admire the work you guys do at Bioware? No? Well, now I have.

[tmp7704]

ipgd wrote...

stoicsentry2 wrote...

I was looking more for something about how you totally betrayed the fan base by making DA2 into DMC and you now hang your head in shame and sit in a dark corner longing for human companionship, but the PR team probably wouldn't allow that so... good enough.

Somehow, I doubt you would be satisfied even if he were to livestream his seppuku.

"The blood and guts flying all over the camera? Totally ridiculous."

Modifié par tmp7704, 05 août 2011 - 11:32 .

[craigdolphin]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

Oh, FINE. One more fun one: yes.

Our intention is that there will be the ability to initiate companion dialogs at "home base," whatever that is. Remember, though, that we have a finite amount of resources, and there's a delicate balance between the resources spent on personal plots out in the world and dialogs in the "base," and the we'll have to tread carefully.

Still, I completely understand the desire to plunk down and at least have the option to ask Fenris a few things, even if they're eventually going to be the same things (as was the case in Origins), if only to show off / enjoy / savor Gideon Emery's dulcet tones.

Well, you had that in DA2. Unique hub dialog was the term John Epler coined for it, I believe.

And I'm all for that. But what I want to know is whether we will additionally get back the ability to INITIATE dialog on the road (Active Dialog) as we were able to do in DAO?

I'm not saying there couldn't be two sets of dialog options for each type of dialog situation btw. I just really, really missed that. I felt that the lack of ability to initiate dialog on the road just totally destroyed the feeling that I was travelling with /people/ rather than glorified combat resources with legs.

Passively triggering conversations just doesn;t scratch that itch. I know I'll likely get blasted for misusing the term 'player agency', but that's what I feel the lack of inititative re: active dialog takes away from me.

This matters to me. That sense of travelling with people/friends is what made DAO so special. And what made DA2 feel so soul-less.

EDit: I also want to say that, if PR really would prefer that you not interact with us, then I doubly appreciate you being here and communicating. Frankly, I think the PR spin has a lot to do with the rage. I think it fair to say that most gamers hate PR-speak. I'm not saying PR doesn't fulfil an important role in some situations, but I do think you are better served by straight talk. So kudos.

Second Edit:
Also, if perchance this is simply one of those topics that has yet to be decided then, that's cool. I just want to be sure you're aware that this is something that is important to address: at least for some of us.

Modifié par craigdolphin, 05 août 2011 - 11:45 .

[b1322]

craigdolphin wrote...

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

Oh, FINE. One more fun one: yes.

Our intention is that there will be the ability to initiate companion dialogs at "home base," whatever that is. Remember, though, that we have a finite amount of resources, and there's a delicate balance between the resources spent on personal plots out in the world and dialogs in the "base," and the we'll have to tread carefully.

Still, I completely understand the desire to plunk down and at least have the option to ask Fenris a few things, even if they're eventually going to be the same things (as was the case in Origins), if only to show off / enjoy / savor Gideon Emery's dulcet tones.

Well, you had that in DA2. Unique hub dialog was the term John Epler coined for it, I believe.

And I'm all for that. But what I want to know is whether we will additionally get back the ability to INITIATE dialog on the road (Active Dialog) as we were able to do in DAO?

I'm not saying there couldn't be two sets of dialog options for each type of dialog situation btw. I just really, really missed that. I felt that the lack of ability to initiate dialog on the road just totally destroyed the feeling that I was travelling with /people/ rather than glorified combat resources with legs.

Passively triggering conversations just doesn;t scratch that itch. I know I'll likely get blasted for misusing the term 'player agency', but that's what I feel the lack of inititative re: active dialog takes away from me.

This matters to me. That sense of travelling with people/friends is what made DAO so special. And what made DA2 feel so soul-less.

That is EXCACTLY what i meant when asking that first question to Mike, so I cant agree more!

[b1322]

And that is also one of the main things to why I didnt see da2 as a sequel to origins but why it should have had another title instead of da2.

[TEWR]

I have to ask Bioware, can we have a drunk naked Oghren cameo where he's fighting Darkspawn or some other group of enemies?


Thank you. that is all.

[Bryy_Miller]

The simple answer is that they wanted it to be a sequel. They called it Dragon Age 2.

And that, my friends, is objective. Not subjective.

[FieryDove]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I have to ask Bioware, can we have a drunk naked Oghren cameo where he's fighting Darkspawn or some other group of enemies?
Thank you. that is all.

If you get that there will be no Gorilla companion for DA3. So think carefully.

To our Dev's and Mod's you are =

[Stanley Woo]

b1322 wrote...

I liked Legacy and could feel some of the improvements. And I really appreciate that Bioware takes the time to listen and answer our feedback, thank you! :-)

Increased community interaction is one of the things I would like to do in future projects. I would like us to get back to the way things were in the early days of the BioWare online community, where developers felt safe and valued and their opinions and advice were respected because, hey, these guys made the game y'all love.

Over the years, as the community has gotten bigger and project deadlines more important, we've slacked off a bit. I admit that. I've even gotten grouchier as a Moderator and have had to get people like John Epler to be the "good cop" to my "bad cop," Chris Priestly isn't even able to be online with you guys as much as he used to be.

But going forward, I would like both us and the community to be welcoming to new developers who want to share their expertise, advice and opinions. I want an artist, for example, to come in and talk about what he's working on without a small portion of the community screaming "DA2 SUCKED!" at him. I would like a designer to be able to talk about this new system or solicit ideas for a planned feature without a big long tangent on how "EA is the devil!" And I especially want to come in and chat with all y'all without feeling like I have to fight through some of you to get to those people who can and want to listen to what I have to say.

We hope that the Dragon Age franchise has a long way still to go. We have lots of ideas, and you guys have a lot of opinions and a desire to learn everything you can about what's coming up, what's in the pipe, and what hit store shelves, like, an hour ago or whatever. To do that, we have to be willing to set our differences aside and work like a community again. We have to believe that you ultimately like us and want to help us build better games, and you have to believe that we love what we do and that we are doing it for you, our community, our fans, and gamers worldwide (as well as for money).

Let's be excellent to each other and help to make this community the best developer board you can find. Let's attract some new devs to talk, and let's agree to disagree when things get too heated or when we start talking in circles. And we, in turn, will continue to be forthright with you and, as always, as open as we can be about what we're doing and why we do it.

Thanks for reading.

[Saintthanksgiving]

Kothoses Rothenkisal wrote...

The fact is this thread otherwise a good example of the way communtiy and developer can engage needs to not be lost, especially as it is getting offsite coverage now too.

offsite coverage? did  I miss this? where?  can you see me on TV?

also, I missed a lot of the last few pages, was back reading them just a second ago.  Did people miss the post where I ordered the torches and pitchforks back to a safe distance? 

To demonstrate the need for cooperation and peace, I am prepared to kiss the DA2 Apologist Cutlass Jack square on the mouth... on the internet. because...

"During this fight, I've seen a lot of changing, in the way you feel
about me, and in the way I feel about you. In here, there were two guys
killing each other, but I guess that's better than twenty million. I
guess what I'm trying to say, is that if I can change, and you can
change, everybody can change!"

[Redcoat]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I have to ask Bioware, can we have a drunk naked Oghren cameo where he's fighting Darkspawn or some other group of enemies?


Thank you. that is all.

When David Gaider said that listening to fans did not equate to obeying them, this is what he was talking about!

And on another note, this thread makes feel all warm and fuzzy inside. And I'm not even drunk yet! Keep it up!

Modifié par Redcoat, 05 août 2011 - 11:41 .

[Tirfan]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I have to ask Bioware, can we have a drunk naked Oghren cameo where he's fighting Darkspawn or some other group of enemies?


Thank you. that is all.

THIS. so many times. if I can't have my rp, I atleast want drunk naked Oghren. And I'll drink to this suggestion.

[nitefyre410]

FieryDove wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I have to ask Bioware, can we have a drunk naked Oghren cameo where he's fighting Darkspawn or some other group of enemies?
Thank you. that is all.

If you get that there will be no Gorilla companion for DA3. So think carefully.

To our Dev's and Mod's you are =

maybe  Oghren in a gorilla suit... I jest .

Drunk Naked Oghren fighting  Darkspawn - awesome, scary, traumatizing and   hilarous all that same time.

Modifié par nitefyre410, 05 août 2011 - 11:43 .

[John Epler]

Naked Oghren is a traumatizing experience that I would wish on no one.

And the thought of him moving about and fighting Darkspawn... ye gods.

[AloraKast]

So I had a thought (it’s astounding the kinds of thoughts that fill your mind when you ought to be contemplating your grocery list).

We already touched upon the issue of “Bioware wants to appeal to the Call of Duty crowd” and discussed that with the people in the know suggesting that it’s not really the case. So perhaps the better question would be this:

In making the (some would call them) big changes in DA2 and steering the franchise in a noticeably different direction, what WAS the audience you were aiming for? To what kind of audience were you hoping to make this game more accessible? So as not to get boggled down by terms and definitions, is it fair to say the aim was simply to have the game appeal to anyone who doest not consider themselves an RPG gamer?

Which brings me to another point. What is this new direction that you have in mind for the DA franchise? Where are we headed? I’m gathering we (or at least I) do not quite understand the path that we find ourselves on, right along with the franchise, that the road has been obscured by fog and the destination has become unknown. Shedding any light and thus helping us to understand this new direction would go a long way in helping to alleviate the fear of the unknown which is an inherent human trait.

I appreciate that you may not be able to answer any of this, but I thought I’d give it a shot. Any light shed on this would be very much appreciated.

Edit: Fixed formatting

Modifié par AloraKast, 05 août 2011 - 11:46 .

[billy the squid]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

stoicsentry2 wrote...
I was looking more for something about how you totally betrayed the fan base by making DA2 into DMC and you now hang your head in shame and sit in a dark corner longing for human companionship, but the PR team probably wouldn't allow that so... good enough.

This would be the definition of not knowing when to quit, kids. For future reference: when someone extends you an olive branch, don't take it and try to hit them with it. It just makes you look spiteful.

Oh come on, I think Mike is being more than reasonable here, he is not a mixture of Shakespear's Iago and Fu Man Chu is he? Hes not a bad chap I just don't happen to agree on the some of the concept and design issues.

[Tirfan]

@JohnEpler: Oh come on, throw us fans a bone now, we want to see that hot, sweaty redheaded dwarven body of Oghren, his muscles gleaming as he cuts darkspawn all around, his mighty equipment moving with that dwarven grace.. oh yeah.. the game is rated mature, use it!

[KennethAFTopp]

ademska wrote...

KennethAFTopp wrote...

I don't think it's crying, it's about explaining his point of view and his thoughts on the dragon age franchise, and that is very cool, he does say alot of good things, but but even Legacy which is the best thing in DA2 and the best DLC of both games, still don't feel quite as good as DA:O mainly because it has the same problems as DAII has. Now I think someone said once that DAII didn't move the franchise forward, but moved it sideways and I agree with that, and if they keep going down this path I am not sure I am interested in the next Dragon Age game. I'll keep my eye on it but still the thoughts and opinions compiled here does not make me excited about the next step in the Dragon Age Franchise.

i meant crying his tears of what must surely be deep sorrow because you don't approve of a potential, vague direction of the series to which you have not actually been privy.

edit: and you were nice to me, so i'll return the favor. my primary point here is that there is no point in decrying what are at this point abstract potentialities. that said, you admitted you'd be keeping an eye on dragon age news, so you're doing better than a lot of 'fans' who throw their hands up in the air sometimes and admit vastly premature defeat.

I am getting the notion that you automatically puts all who disliked DAII in a single condescending box.