1502 réponses à ce sujet

[erynnar]

pixieface wrote...

David Gaider wrote...
It's very much a technical limitation, however, as hoorayforicecream points out above-- and, no, we don't consider it an acceptable compromise to allow happen-anywhere cinematic dialogue that can make for screwy cameras.

This is great news for me! There were many times when I initiated unique dialogue by accident in a place that just kind of sucked. I remember  I either got the request to see Goldanna or Alistair's rose while I was infiltrating Redcliffe Castle because I clicked on him instead of something else. That was indeed a let down. Limiting serious dialogue to serious settings in favor of party banter geared at the quest and environment seems far more sensible.

We are going to have to agree to disagree on that one. I would rather reload and not touch them again the next go around, than feel so isolated from my companions and feel as if our relationships are based soley on what I can do for them.  They prefer the dog to Hawke, and I feel their pain.

[lobi]

Redcoat wrote...

The problem with the "Thin Veil" of Kirkwall was that it was presented as a series of Codex entires, "The Enigma of Kirkwall", instead of actually being shown in the game - a clear example of telling instead of showing. I completely missed The Enigma of Kirkwall during my first run through, and when I actually read through it on the second playthrough, my first thought was, "Why wasn't this in the game?"

Enigma of Kirkwall seemed like it was put in by a staff member that saw the some of the flaws in the games plot and this was the best they could do under the circumstances.

Modifié par lobi, 06 août 2011 - 03:20 .

[dragonflight288]

@ Etheral--I LOVE that movie!

And yes, my first playthrough I didn't read the Enigma of Kirkwall, so I was like every other clueless citizen in the city regarding the mages and the abominations. There's a lot of blood mages, there's a lot of abominations, and I don't have a clear reason as to why until I actually took the time to read the codex.

[thegoldfinch]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I got the impression that crazy people flourished in Kirkwall because the veil was thin due to the atrocities that occurred in centuries past. I wish that would have been pushed more with maybe an opportunity to fix the veil - or at least try but fail.

The mage versus templar conflict should have been pushed more, I definitely agree. What was there was so, so good. I wish I could explore it more.

Did I mention that I really liked the mage-templar quests? I don't think I did yet.

The thin veil only goes so far before it becomes just a very poor excuse for the game's flaws, much like the idea of Varric embellishing on certain things.

Very much in agreement. I mean, if certain people have to be crazy, then the veil absolutely needs to play a central role when it wasn't even mentioned outside of codexes. As a person who always plays a mage, I don't think I would mind exploring that avenue, especially if Feynriel and Marethari were brought in to help us navigate through the 'ghosts' of tortured slaves and their warped masters. I think it could be interesting. 

But as it stands I would much rather Meredith and Orsino to be reasonable. Making them go bananas at the last second renders the mage-templar conflict null, which renders all of Hawke's efforts null. 

I did adore Varric's exaggerated tale of him entering Bartrands home. I mean, that was just great in every single department. But other than the combat heavy opening, it appeared to have been abandoned. I think it would have been better off if that was the only part of the game with an exaggerated section, if only for humorous reasons. The opening did no service to the rest of the game. From comments I read on other sites, people construed that opening to be reflective of the rest of their combat experience and some simply turned their system off. I think that is a shame.

Redcoat wrote...
The problem with the "Thin Veil" of Kirkwall was that it was presented as a series of Codex entires, "The Enigma of Kirkwall", instead of actually being shown in the game - a clear example of telling instead of showing.

Yes, yes, yes. The codexes were great, but I wanted to dig down into some dank pit of Kirkwall and see some horrible, literal rip that just festers and grows with each day.

Or, as the sorrows and struggles of the in game events increase in intensity, visable tears in the fade begin to creep onto the surface of Kirkwall. The conflicts of the past would esentially need to be lain to rest parallel to the conflicts of the present.

Modifié par pixieface, 06 août 2011 - 03:24 .

[TEWR]

Even had the thin Veil been shown in the game, that wouldn't have been enough for me. There are just too many instances where it doesn't cut it.



edit: I actually replay Varric's Act 2 companion quest embellishment at least 5 times just to hear him say "Bartrand! I'm coming for you, you nug-humping bastard!" and "Ha, let's dance you sons of ****es!"

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 06 août 2011 - 03:26 .

[erynnar]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Even had the thin Veil been shown in the game, that wouldn't have been enough for me. There are just too many instances where it doesn't cut it.



edit: I actually replay Varric's Act 2 companion quest embellishment at least 5 times just to hear him say "Bartrand! I'm coming for you, you nug-humping bastard!" and "Ha, let's dance you sons of ****es!"

I especially felt this problem of the "thin veil" not working  for my mage Hawke. She may be strong willed, but she should have felt the pressure from that thinning. Dreams for instance?

[lobi]

Read this guys?
www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/6444/the_writing_of_biowares_dragon_.php
dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:Tierrie/David_Gaider_speaks_out_about_the_writing_in_Dragon_Age_II

Modifié par lobi, 06 août 2011 - 03:37 .

[TEWR]

the closest thing we got to showing the effects of the thin veil was in Sebastian's Act 2 companion quest with Lady Harimann.

I have to say though that one thing DA2 did right were the side quests (ignoring FedEx ones). Their stories were great.

you know, I wish I worked at Bioware because I could learn so much from the writers there. I do think David Gaider is a very talented writer, as well as the rest, but because of the 18 month timeframe they couldn't make the story they wanted to really tell.

[Melca36]

lobi wrote...

Violent cold blooded mercenary kill for two gold coins Hawk takes offence and say's "It's Poison, it kills people".
Violent cold blooded mercenary kill for two gold coins Hawk cannot leave the area until they "do an Anakin" with the thing that is no longer their Mom.
Rise to power was not a Dragon age game, and Bioware will NEVER make another Dragon age game.

It's over people.

Please don't troll this thread. There is some great posts here.  If you have any consideration, you will leave the thread.

[lobi]

It seemed like there was the two explanations for events with the mages. The rebellion of liberal Starkhaven and The tension in a cruel Kirkwall.

[lobi]

Melca36 wrote...
Please don't troll this thread. There is some great posts here. If you have any consideration, you will leave the thread.

A firm belief in what I say is not trolling. If you disagree with the opinion say so. Do not presume to tell me to leave, this is a forum not your house.

Modifié par lobi, 06 août 2011 - 03:45 .

[erynnar]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

the closest thing we got to showing the effects of the thin veil was in Sebastian's Act 2 companion quest with Lady Harimann.

I have to say though that one thing DA2 did right were the side quests (ignoring FedEx ones). Their stories were great.

you know, I wish I worked at Bioware because I could learn so much from the writers there. I do think David Gaider is a very talented writer, as well as the rest, but because of the 18 month timeframe they couldn't make the story they wanted to really tell.

Same here Eth!

[thegoldfinch]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Even had the thin Veil been shown in the game, that wouldn't have been enough for me. There are just too many instances where it doesn't cut it.

Fair. Like I said, I would prefer it if Meredith and Orsino could be rational. It would make the mage-templar threat more meaningful, despite how much fun I had with the Meredith fight.

I personally would have liked to have seen the Veil being torn as a core secondary issue, though. I thought it was very interesting, a phenomenon that has been established before but is unique for Kirkwall and acted as a link between the plight of a slave and the plight of a mage. I wouldn't even mind an Enigma of Kirkwall DLC where we explore the city's sordid past to be quite honest with you. I might be alone in that opinion, though.

edit: I actually replay Varric's Act 2 companion quest embellishment at least 5 times just to hear him say "Bartrand! I'm coming for you, you nug-humping bastard!" and "Ha, let's dance you sons of ****es!"

omg omg omg

"You're strong and handsome! And so very smart!  ... What?"

Modifié par pixieface, 06 août 2011 - 03:50 .

[erynnar]

pixieface wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Even had the thin Veil been shown in the game, that wouldn't have been enough for me. There are just too many instances where it doesn't cut it.

Fair. Like I said, I would prefer it if Meredith and Orsino could be rational. It would make the mage-templar threat more meaningful, despite how much fun I had with the Meredith fight.

I personally would have liked to have seen the Veil being torn as a core secondary issue, though. I thought it was very interesting, a phenomenon that has been established before but is unique for Kirkwall and acted as a link between the plight of a slave and the plight of a mage. I wouldn't even mind an Enigma of Kirkwall DLC where we explore the city's sordid past to be quite honest with you. I'm not sure if I am alone in that opinion or not, though.

edit: I actually replay Varric's Act 2 companion quest embellishment at least 5 times just to hear him say "Bartrand! I'm coming for you, you nug-humping bastard!" and "Ha, let's dance you sons of ****es!"

omg omg omg

"You're strong and handsome! And so very smart!  ... What?"

We didn't need the McGuffins for Meredith, or Orsino. I too would have had more of an emotional impact if Meredith had just been bat ****  insane due to her <spoiler>,  and Osino didn't have to help <spoiler> he could have just been looking at blood magic due to watching for it in the other mages and then used it under pressure himself.

[lobi]

erynnar wrote...
I personally would have liked to have seen the Veil being torn as a core secondary issue, though. I thought it was very interesting, a phenomenon that has been established before but is unique for Kirkwall and acted as a link between the plight of a slave and the plight of a mage. I wouldn't even mind an Enigma of Kirkwall DLC where we explore the city's sordid past to be quite honest with you. I'm not sure if I am alone in that opinion or not, though.

 Definitely not alone! That would be a great History to explore.

Modifié par lobi, 06 août 2011 - 03:58 .

[erynnar]

To quote for my friend mrcrusty, because I agree with him:

"Story/Gameplay segregation. Again. This is a big part of why I don't like Dragon Age 2's story. It's like it exists entirely in a vacuum of cinematics or Codex but never actually shown in the gameplay. It's also an issue that BioWare seems to be incredibly ignorant of. That cinematics are the only way to tell the story."

Cinematics aren't the only way.

[Redcoat]

erynnar wrote...

To quote for my friend mrcrusty, because I agree with him:

"Story/Gameplay segregation. Again. This is a big part of why I don't like Dragon Age 2's story. It's like it exists entirely in a vacuum of cinematics or Codex but never actually shown in the gameplay. It's also an issue that BioWare seems to be incredibly ignorant of. That cinematics are the only way to tell the story."

Cinematics aren't the only way.

I remember there was a great scene in DA:O (sadly cut from the game) where, if you were a Blood Mage and you completed the Circle quest, Wynne would confront you about being a Blood Mage, and if you failed a persuade check you were forced to kill her, Irving, and Gregoir. And if you wanted to learn Blood Magic in the first place, you had to make a deal with a demon. That was a great example of the lore interacting with the gameplay.

Compare this to DA2 where Blood Mage is just a specialisation you pick. You don't have to do anything to learn it, and there's no real consequence for it. You'd think that that Champion of Kirkwall being a blood mage would have huge repercussions, but it doesn't.

[erynnar]

lobi wrote...

erynnar wrote...
I personally would have liked to have seen the Veil being torn as a core secondary issue, though. I thought it was very interesting, a phenomenon that has been established before but is unique for Kirkwall and acted as a link between the plight of a slave and the plight of a mage. I wouldn't even mind an Enigma of Kirkwall DLC where we explore the city's sordid past to be quite honest with you. I'm not sure if I am alone in that opinion or not, though.

 Definitely not alone! That would be a great History to explore.

And no not alone in that.

[Sutekh]

erynnar wrote...

I especially felt this problem of the "thin veil" not working  for my mage Hawke. She may be strong willed, but she should have felt the pressure from that thinning. Dreams for instance?

So I'm not the only one to wonder about that?

Truth is, first time I played, I thought a Big Bad was behind the mages' sudden insanity. I pictured a very powerful insane mage, such as Uldredx10, or a really Ancient Thing ala Cthulhu singing into the mages' ear, and only the strongest didn't hear the call... and believed said Big Bad would be the Final Boss. I had a whole theory related to the recent Blight and all. I guess I was still in an "epic" frame of mind.

What we had was - how can I mildly put this - a bit of a disappointment.

Now I wonder whether the Idol created a resonance effect with the Veil's thinness. Which still doesn't explain some of the logic (or lack thereof) of Act III.

[erynnar]

Sutekh wrote...

erynnar wrote...

I especially felt this problem of the "thin veil" not working  for my mage Hawke. She may be strong willed, but she should have felt the pressure from that thinning. Dreams for instance?

So I'm not the only one to wonder about that?

Truth is, first time I played, I thought a Big Bad was behind the mages' sudden insanity. I pictured a very powerful insane mage, such as Uldredx10, or a really Ancient Thing ala Cthulhu singing into the mages' ear, and only the strongest didn't hear the call... and believed said Big Bad would be the Final Boss. I had a whole theory related to the recent Blight and all. I guess I was still in an "epic" frame of mind.

What we had was - how can I mildly put this - a bit of a disappointment.

Now I wonder whether the Idol created a resonance effect with the Veil's thinness. Which still doesn't explain some of the logic (or lack thereof) of Act III.

Nope, not just you sweetie. Is it great, or just disturbed, minds that think alike? I too imagined a senario like the one you described.

[thegoldfinch]

lobi wrote...
 Definitely not alone! That would be a great History to explore.

Woop! *high five*

erynnar wrote...
We didn't need the McGuffins for Meredith, or Orsino. I too would have had more of an emotional impact if Meredith had just been bat ****  insane due to her <spoiler>,  and Osino didn't have to help <spoiler> he could have just been looking at blood magic due to watching for it in the other mages and then used it under pressure himself.

(spoilers for end game)

I didn't want Orsino to be a blood mage at all. The reasoning that he resorts to it because that's what the Templars expect him to do anyway feels a bit contrived. I didn't want Meredith to be ensnared in this lyrium idol business, either. Maybe the idol will play a strong role in the next game. I don't know. For now, it feels very out of place and it confuses me deeply.

I would have rather seen Orsino as a sane, rational man. He believes in upholding mage rights in a way that is calm, that mages are simply people, and that mages aren't all devils in disguise. They just want to be happy. I would have also loved to see him break down when he sees pupils, who he thinks he has taught honor and what is right, turn into abominations out of blind fear right before his eyes. He could have his own crisis of faith where, hey, maybe the Templars are right and we need to be restrained. Maybe we do have too much power. Or if Meredith faced abandonment and the iminent self-doubt when her Templars decided it was more important to protect the rights of subjectified mages.

/shrug

In the end, I just wanted them to be more understandable and sympathetic. It was simply difficult to feel embroiled in a conflict that turned from a great mage-templar one to a crazy-crazy one.

Sutekh wrote...
Now I wonder whether the Idol created a resonance effect with the Veil's thinness. Which still doesn't explain some of the logic (or lack thereof) of Act III.

Cool theory. Makes sense, given that is indeed made of lyrium.

I just wish that it had been explained or explored more, along with the freaking weird red lyrium mines. It was fascinating, but it seemed so... random. More DLC I guess, hah.

EDIT: Let me just point out that I loved this game, that I loved the combat changes, that I have a healthy respect for the developers and that I have stuck with BioWare for a long time. It just drives me bonkers to see such quality content there but know that it had the potential to be more. I don't want to seem contrary for the sake of contrary.

Modifié par pixieface, 06 août 2011 - 04:22 .

[devSin]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

I very much doubt that we will be doing player-initiated dialog "on the road," however, as our systems are designed to work in fixed places. There are several technical and multiple story reasons why it's inappropriate to stop to chat about someone's personal feelings in the middle of a dungeon; while possible, it doesn't make a lot of sense, so it would not be a priority for us.

How about more contextual click-to-comment? Has this been tried?

Like if I'm standing at the base of the Champion statue, why doesn't anybody have a comment about HEY, LOOK! THAT'S MY STATUE! when I click on them?

Sure, you may have to populate the map with a billion trigger regions, but it's something I really wanted to see mixed in with the random per-area snippets. (This would be in addition to the comments that automatically trigger, in the cases where those actually fire correctly; I don't like those so much because they always happen when I'm going to start a conversation with an NPC or am doing some pause-inducing action, which interrupts or terminates their audio, and they usually only ever fire once, so I either have to reload or just choose to never hear the complete line).

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

edit: I actually replay Varric's Act 2 companion quest embellishment at least 5 times

This is truly one of the great moments in video game history. I couldn't believe the awesome they put in there the first time I figured out what he was doing.

Modifié par devSin, 06 août 2011 - 04:21 .

[erynnar]

pixieface wrote...

lobi wrote...
 Definitely not alone! That would be a great History to explore.

Woop! *high five*

erynnar wrote...
We didn't need the McGuffins for Meredith, or Orsino. I too would have had more of an emotional impact if Meredith had just been bat ****  insane due to her <spoiler>,  and Osino didn't have to help <spoiler> he could have just been looking at blood magic due to watching for it in the other mages and then used it under pressure himself.

(spoilers for end game)

I didn't want Orsino to be a blood mage at all. The reasoning that he resorts to it because that's what the Templars expect him to do anyway feels a bit contrived. I didn't want Meredith to be ensnared in this lyrium idol business, either. Maybe the idol will play a strong role in the next game. I don't know. For now, it feels very out of place and it confuses me deeply.

I would have rather seen Orsino as a sane, rational man. He believes in upholding mage rights in a way that is calm, that mages are simply people, and that mages aren't all devils in disguise. They just want to be happy. I would have also loved to see him break down when he sees pupils, who he thinks he has taught honor and what is right, turn into abominations out of blind fear right before his eyes. He could have his own crisis of faith where, hey, maybe the Templars are right and we need to be restrained. Maybe we do have too much power. Or if Meredith faced abandonment and the iminent self-doubt when her Templars decided it was more important to protect the rights of subjectified mages.

/shrug

In the end, I just wanted them to be more understandable and sympathetic. It was simply difficult to feel embroiled in a conflict that turned from a great mage-templar one to a crazy-crazy one.

Sutekh wrote...
Now I wonder whether the Idol created a resonance effect with the Veil's thinness. Which still doesn't explain some of the logic (or lack thereof) of Act III.

Cool theory. Makes sense, given that is indeed made of lyrium.

I just wish that it had been explained or explored more, along with the freaking weird red lyrium mines. It was fascinating, but it seemed so... random. More DLC I guess, hah.

Totally agree about Orsino! I only mentioned the other as it seemed as if they needed him to go bat**** nuts too. I would have preferred to have him remain the calm, intelligent man he was. For him to go suddenly nuts, based on templars (and one brief mention in a note signed "O", that could have been someone else) it did smack of contrived to the point of arm twisting or Indian rug burn...'say uncle! Say it!":blink:

[lobi]

I felt the overall theme of DA2 was "corruption". Corrupted by desire, passions and power, and how corruption can punish virtue. Orsino and Merideth prime examples of the latter.

Modifié par lobi, 06 août 2011 - 04:24 .

[FieryDove]

erynnar wrote...

Totally agree about Orsino!

I had plans for Orsino. I was going to appoint him the KC title. lol

Sigh