1502 réponses à ce sujet

[Mike Laidlaw]

Alex Kershaw wrote...

I'm surprised that the feedback on this thread seems to have an emphasis towards the gameplay - while I preferred DAO's combat, I don't think tending towards an action approach is necessarily a bad thing; look at Mass Effect 2 and The Witcher 2 - both having action combat. I am surprised that I haven't read anything in this thread about going back to a game on a grand scale as opposed to a single city - is that just implied? I assume at this stage that must already be decided on?

Feedback of that sort is pretty much game-specific. The concerns about scale are well presented (and not well presented in some cases!), and well known, but it's not a really fertile ground for discussion at this point, as we will not be making DA II again, and we will not talk about the scope/plans/story of future products. So, we can acknowledge your concerns and....then we're done. For now.

[Mike Laidlaw]

fchopin wrote...
What about having a toggle to show the full text of what our character will say? is there any chance of this happening?

I'll consider it.

[GithCheater]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

Savber100 wrote...

[image snippage]
Is there anyway for more choices that go beyond my "reaction" or a "yes" or "no"?

You could click the investigate to open up 5 additional choices to ask Isabela about her relationship with Hayder, or you could choose to help her or not, and enjoy one of 3 possible responses, colored by the dominant tone you had chosen throughout the course of the game, creating a consistency of character. So that's...let's see....11 possible things you could say there, some of which were determined by how you had played the game up to that point.

Not too shabby, if you ask me.

11 choices is great, but I have a few concerns in how they were used ... I believe that the domininant tone choices generally only affected companion approval, but did not affect the progression of the conversation nor affect the story related results of the conversation.  In general, I recall that the remaining  "informational" questions could be chosen in the course of the conversation.  

Conversations in DA2 usually resulted in at most two meaningful choices and results (feeling or no feelings for Isabella for example).  In a contrast, DAO sometimes would have branching dialogs that could have hidden options (the caged Ostagar prisoner's key for example) or the conversations would be difficult to solve (like Felsi taking back Oghren after the nug roast incident - not being easy to accomplish) or even trap questions (Asking Alistar "What if we just left?").

In conclusion, I would like to see more complicated converstions like in DAO, rather than "the get all info" and then make a dominant tone remark that seems to be the pattern in DA2.
 

Modifié par GithCheater, 06 août 2011 - 05:50 .

[fchopin]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

fchopin wrote...
What about having a toggle to show the full text of what our character will say? is there any chance of this happening?

I'll consider it.

Thank you.

[tmp7704]

ipgd wrote...

They've explained repeatedly that the talking head setup forces them to forgo cinematography, and, consequentially, substantive animation. As in, it effectively decouples full body visual character emoting and interaction from the dialogue staged in that manner and removes a significant dimension from their ability to actually present the story.

Yes, to a degree -- the setup in question doesn't force to forgo cinematography entirely, but rather more fancy techniques. The part which didn't get explained is why having some parts of the game use just basic techniques is a no-go, especially given that DA2 had quite a lot of such basic sequences, and they commonly appear even in the movies. "The ability to actually present the story" doesn't appear to be hindered by presence of these particular parts, in these productions.

[MerinTB]

ipgd wrote...

MerinTB wrote...
The simplest, strongest example I have of this in DA2... and Isabela.  No matter how much of a dick I was to her Hawke always treated her as a friend in journals, in the things he'd say when you met her or about things she left in his manor.  It was tear-my-hair-out frustrating for me.  I was NOT being nice to her, but the game defaulted to being uber-friendly.

That's because it's just not possible to dislike Isabela. Anyone who disagrees with me is mentally diseased.

Then The Joker better give me his room at Arkham as I apparently make him seem completely sane in comparison.

...

Though I feel that complaints about "I just didn't like character X" I don't consider judgements on the game.  MAYBE on the designers if they thought the character would be likeable.  But whatever... I don't hold it against a game that there's a character in there I dislike.

I will hold it against the game for both allowing me to pick choices for my character that show clear dislike while simultaneously having prescripted events that have my character show great liking.

[tmp7704]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

There are more limitations at work than just presentation. Like everything, there are pros and cons to every decision, and while it would be lovely to have talk-anywhere dialogs whereever and whenever we want, it would also be wildly inappropriate at times, and also cause potential interruptions in gameplay when you mean to click on an item and are instead launched into a dialog with follower X.

Couldn't this be solved altrernatively by having a clicked-on companion answer with a sort of "now it's not good time, let's talk later" bark in places/situations which were deemed to be "wildly inappropriate times" ... instead of removing the ability entirely because it might happen at inappropriate time? I mean, this approach is... well, it's like throwing out the baby with the bathwater, really

Also, i think the problem with "clicked on companion rather than item" wasn't actually a problem itself -- such accidentally opened dialogue could be immediately closed, after all. The issue was more with another feature, which was sometimes initiating the dialogue would have the companion to launch in their own long speech and dance, because they've hit another relationship threshold meantime, or whatever.

[b1322]

I must admit that now I am really confused about the conversation system. Yesterday, I got the impression from Mike that there would be additional dialogues at least at camp or some homebase and that it would be possible for examble to kiss my LI anytime I wanted but now it doesnt sound like that will be likely either. I know Bioware cant tell us too much of how it is going to be but I would appreciate just a little hint so that I will know if I will buy da3 or not, because if the dialogues are going to be limited like in da2 again, then I definitely wont be buying it.
I am sorry if the questions seems repeated and if I am too thickheaded to understand it all 


Edit: And I dont mean party banter as part of the dialogues but actually dialogues.

Modifié par b1322, 06 août 2011 - 06:02 .

[Alex Kershaw]

I'm interested in what the Bioware guys think about a 24 hour clock like The Witcher series does (or even the Bethesda games). The day/night maps in DA2 suggests they are considering this system? I'm personally on the fence - it can open up more realistic quests but it removes the advantage of the ambiguity of time - I for one liked how I didn't really now how much time had passed in Origins where as with a 24 hour clock you can't really say 'that happened while you weren't controlling the character', and it doesn't really make sense to start a quest, wait for a few years then go back and continue... Like anything, it has its pros and cons...

EDIT: In fact, DA2's system actually manages to have the pros of both, although I'm not sure how much work it was to create a night version of a map.

Modifié par Alex Kershaw, 06 août 2011 - 06:09 .

[Addai]

Brockololly wrote...

David Gaider wrote...
The technical issues have been brought  up elsewhere in this thread. We're not interested in talking-head
dialogue and have chosen to raise the bar on our cinematic presentation  whenever we use it. As I mentioned previously, there are ways to arrange the interaction with the party members which could potentially provide  more agency-- but if you believe you absolutely require the ability to  talk to a party member with full dialogue anywhere in the game, that's  not on the table. Sorry.

I'm just curious, from the designer's perspective what is the intent behind having such a great number of conversations limited to the "cinematic" angle, for the player? What are you trying to elliict out of the player by limiting conversations like that as opposed to giving them the freedom of a simpler system like DAO?

Even in DA2 most conversations end up being talking heads cutting back and forth, its just the camera zooms around a little more or people move around a bit. It just seems like a tradeoff which serves to give the developer greater control at the expense of the player.

This is the burning question for me, too.  What are the devs trying to "raise the bar" on and why is that important?  Being able to see my character shift in her seat or gesture adds very little to the scene.  I'd rather focus on the NPC and on the conversation.

It seems to me like a priority on being edgy/ cool over really creating an immersive player experience.  Unless my character is doing something active that is important to the scene (say, Shepard preparing to zap the gunship mechanic with his own welder), it adds very little.

But in forcing cinematics into everything in DA2, sure, its more cinematic, but on a technical level, that puts the engine under more scrutiny. And quite frankly, if I want a cinematic game, I'll go for something like Uncharted- where you don't see nasty warped hands and weapons clipping and so forth  but they have their stuff down on a technical level, suited for cinematics- from animations to the technical side of graphics.

True as well.

[Mike Laidlaw]

b1322 wrote...

I must admit that now I am really confused about the conversation system. Yesterday, I got the impression from Mike that there would be additional dialogues at least at camp or some homebase and that it would be possible for examble to kiss my LI anytime I wanted but now it doesnt sound like that will be likely either. I know Bioware cant tell us too much of how it is going to be but I would appreciate just a little hint so that I will know if I will buy da3 or not, because if the dialogues are going to be limited like in da2 again, then I definitely wont be buying it.
I am sorry if the questions seems repeated and if I am too thickheaded to understand it all 


Edit: And I dont mean party banter as part of the dialogues but actually dialogues.

Generally: Any time? Yes. Any where? No.

[sami jo]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

fchopin wrote...
What about having a toggle to show the full text of what our character will say? is there any chance of this happening?

I'll consider it.

That would make me a very happy gamer.  I liked the intention icons, but I ended up relying on them too much because the paraphrases were nigh-on useless much of the time.  It became a real problem when I came to a branch point.  As a specific example (made as spoiler free as possible) there is a response during one of Merril's quests when one of the branch-point responses is takeing responsibility yourself.  I interpreted that as taking responsibility for what someone else had done, not the intended meaning of taking responsibility for another's good behavior in the future.

Edited to add: I like the dialogue wheel in the ME games, but between it and the voiced protagonist, it contributes to a sense that Shepard is a character I am controlling, not a unique character I can role play (which was one of the things I loved about DAO). The paraphrases in ME are also done better.  There is nothing inherently wrong with a fixed protagonist, but the freedom to create a unique OC in DAO was one of it's strengths and one of the reasons so many love it (and are fanatically attached to their Wardens ) That level of freedom probably contributed to the number of dialogue and plot flag bugs that are still present in DAO as well, so there are clearly trade-offs.

Edit 2 (because I clearly need more coffee): Having three options for Hawke's tone/personality and having the voice and dialogue react to those choices was interesting; but it often felt that I had three different ways of saying the same thing that would have absolutely no impact on the story as a whole instead of DAO where it generally felt like I had multiple possible responses that would impact the story.  It's at least partly a matter of perception and not reality, but it contributed to the sensation that I was along for the ride in DA2 and not controlling events.

Modifié par sami jo, 06 août 2011 - 06:17 .

[Andaril78]

Hi. Saw that you were talking about companion banter. Howewer...There's many deaf and hearing impaired gamers out there. And we have big problems with your banter system. Why? Because the PC is almost 100% of the time in the front BUT the party banter is behind you. The subtitled banter I mean. And you've cutted out the dialog log who was popular in DAO so we misses much of the banter. I think I've missed almost the half at least of the banter.
We are hundred of thousands deaf/hearing impaired only in small Sweden, so we are an big group of potential customers. so, please, consider to change the banter system OR take back the dialog log.
I'll hope any dev have time to answer this.
Thanks.

[b1322]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

b1322 wrote...

I must admit that now I am really confused about the conversation system. Yesterday, I got the impression from Mike that there would be additional dialogues at least at camp or some homebase and that it would be possible for examble to kiss my LI anytime I wanted but now it doesnt sound like that will be likely either. I know Bioware cant tell us too much of how it is going to be but I would appreciate just a little hint so that I will know if I will buy da3 or not, because if the dialogues are going to be limited like in da2 again, then I definitely wont be buying it.
I am sorry if the questions seems repeated and if I am too thickheaded to understand it all 


Edit: And I dont mean party banter as part of the dialogues but actually dialogues.

Generally: Any time? Yes. Any where? No.

Then that is enough for me to want to buy da3, thank You for clearing it up for me and answering my question

[Saintthanksgiving]

leggywillow wrote...

Xewaka wrote...

Saintthanksgiving wrote...
Xewaka im going to disagree with you on this voice actor thing, and here's why.
When we design our character, we allowing a fair amount of liscence. We acknowledge that this character will represent us, but it will not necessarily BE us. Most of us design our characters to be the" us" that we would like to be, more than the us that we are.

I rarely, if ever, play self insert. Notice I said "my character" and "Bioware's character". I never mentioned "me". It'd be weird if I played self-insert, considering my first usual run is with a female character.

Self-insert is a phenomenon I will never understand in RPGs.  I often make characters with similar morals and decision-making processes to myself, but I never name a character after myself, make them look like me, or pretend that they are me in a fantasy/sci-fi world.  The whole thing just seems bizarre to me.

thats fine, but the point i was making is that a voiced PC isnt any more distracting than any other limitation of character creation.  It is a neutral element of the character.  The conversation choices you make will be far more essential to the roleplay than the voice who said it.
if self insertion isnt your goal at char creation, this is even LESS of an issuee

[Alex Kershaw]

Maybe most people differ to me on this one but I never had a problem with 'talking heads'. I've actually noticed that I end up reading the subtitles while listening to the voice rather than actually paying attention to the [usually pretty poor in all games] animation and lip synching. I don't actually care for talking to companions on the road though - I almost never did it and waiting until you get back to camp is hardly a big ask in my opinion. I just think that, in my opinion, having 'talking heads' with more 'flavour' conversation at camp (like DAO) is preferable to having only quest-related discussions but with lots of animations (walking to chair, sitting down, frowning, walking across room...).

[Sylvianus]

b1322 wrote...

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

b1322 wrote...

I must admit that now I am really confused about the conversation system. Yesterday, I got the impression from Mike that there would be additional dialogues at least at camp or some homebase and that it would be possible for examble to kiss my LI anytime I wanted but now it doesnt sound like that will be likely either. I know Bioware cant tell us too much of how it is going to be but I would appreciate just a little hint so that I will know if I will buy da3 or not, because if the dialogues are going to be limited like in da2 again, then I definitely wont be buying it.
I am sorry if the questions seems repeated and if I am too thickheaded to understand it all 


Edit: And I dont mean party banter as part of the dialogues but actually dialogues.

Generally: Any time? Yes. Any where? No.

Then that is enough for me to want to buy da3, thank You for clearing it up for me and answering my question

Hurray ! Seems good to me ! :happy:

Modifié par Sylvianus, 06 août 2011 - 06:08 .

[tmp7704]

Alex Kershaw wrote...

I'm interested in what the Bioware guys think about a 24 hour clock like The Witcher series does (or even the Bethesda games). The day/night maps in DA2 suggests they are considering this system?

The engine used by DA uses mostly pre-calculated lighting for the areas -- the day/night maps in DA2 are effectively two separate areas which happen to have geometry that looks the same.

It doesn't really allow for the sort of automatic time advancement like the Witcher or Bethesda games use. Not without some pretty drastic changes to the engine, at least.

[Cutlass Jack]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

fchopin wrote...
What about having a toggle to show the full text of what our character will say? is there any chance of this happening?

I'll consider it.

Toggle is fine. But don't get rid of Paraphrasing. Nothing is duller than listening to someone read off a line you've already read.

That said, I do think the paraphrasing needed to be clearer. If I'm not mistaken, DA2 took the Paraphrase choice, then checked vs. Personality before deciding on which line to use. Which sometimes meant the results confused people. I think the actual paraphrases need to vary a little based on dominant personality so they're more accurate.

[Giltspur]

b1322 wrote...

I must admit that now I am really confused about the conversation system. Yesterday, I got the impression from Mike that there would be additional dialogues at least at camp or some homebase and that it would be possible for examble to kiss my LI anytime I wanted but now it doesnt sound like that will be likely either. I know Bioware cant tell us too much of how it is going to be but I would appreciate just a little hint so that I will know if I will buy da3 or not, because if the dialogues are going to be limited like in da2 again, then I definitely wont be buying it.
I am sorry if the questions seems repeated and if I am too thickheaded to understand it all 


Edit: And I dont mean party banter as part of the dialogues but actually dialogues.

I think they're drawing a distinction between how in Origins you could have an "interrogation" with a companion at camp or out in the middle of the field on a quest.  (And in Origins they had "talking head" scenes where it's just Alistair talking with whatever background he's currently in.)  

And so they decided they didn't want talking head scenes everyhwere but instead wanting cinematic ones.  That meant having those "interrogation" or "small talk" conversations out in the field was no longer practical because cinematic dialogues have to take the setting into account.  They have to be staged.  So they stage can't just be anywhere.

So their compromise is to allow you have to have the small talk/chat/(kiss the LI) scenes at the home base (be that someone's house like in DA2 or like Camp in DAO) or perhaps even some other staged area like when your camp moves to Denerim or Redcliffe in DAO.  So that's where the DAO-style small talk/interrogation stuff is.  But you wouldn't be able to do it just walking around anywhere.  When just walking around anywhere, they're hoping to have stuff done by ambient banter.

So it breaks down to

"DAO-style" chats/interrogations at a home base/camp done in a cinematic fashion instead of a talking head fashion.  <-- So it takes the get-to-your-companions approach of DAO and mixes it with the restriction to home base for chats of DA2 with the bonus of cinematic instead of talking head staging.

And in addition to that they're trying to add ambient banter that you can take part in out in the field.  But there seem to be technical issues that have to be solved--so it's no sure thing.  It's just something they want to do.

EDIT: Ninja'd.  By someone reputable even. 

Modifié par Giltspur, 06 août 2011 - 06:13 .

[Alex Kershaw]

Destination Unknown wrote...

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

b1322 wrote...

I must admit that now I am really confused about the conversation system. Yesterday, I got the impression from Mike that there would be additional dialogues at least at camp or some homebase and that it would be possible for examble to kiss my LI anytime I wanted but now it doesnt sound like that will be likely either. I know Bioware cant tell us too much of how it is going to be but I would appreciate just a little hint so that I will know if I will buy da3 or not, because if the dialogues are going to be limited like in da2 again, then I definitely wont be buying it.
I am sorry if the questions seems repeated and if I am too thickheaded to understand it all 


Edit: And I dont mean party banter as part of the dialogues but actually dialogues.

Generally: Any time? Yes. Any where? No.

Lol, somewhat ambiguous!  Where is "anytime?" if not "anywhere?"  In other words, do explain.   Inquiring mind wants to know. 

Any time = you can talk to them at the 'camp' whenever you want, unlike DA2 where they usually 'barked' even in their houses.

Not anywhere = The conversations will be limited to the 'camp' and the odd specific location (e.g. Alistair outside Radcliffe).

[b1322]

Destination Unknown wrote...

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

b1322 wrote...

I must admit that now I am really confused about the conversation system. Yesterday, I got the impression from Mike that there would be additional dialogues at least at camp or some homebase and that it would be possible for examble to kiss my LI anytime I wanted but now it doesnt sound like that will be likely either. I know Bioware cant tell us too much of how it is going to be but I would appreciate just a little hint so that I will know if I will buy da3 or not, because if the dialogues are going to be limited like in da2 again, then I definitely wont be buying it.
I am sorry if the questions seems repeated and if I am too thickheaded to understand it all 


Edit: And I dont mean party banter as part of the dialogues but actually dialogues.

Generally: Any time? Yes. Any where? No.

Lol, somewhat ambiguous!  Where is "anytime?" if not "anywhere?"  In other words, do explain.   Inquiring mind wants to know. 

I think he means that it is possible at a campside or homebase of sort.

[alex90c]

just a quick question but why are Bioware wanting every conversation to consist of epic cutscenes? I mean, say I go up to random companion X and i'm all like 'sup' , I couldn't care less if there were some epic camera angles as I stride on to the scene and then random companion X fiddling around with objects Y and Z for some reason. I mean, I think for important conversations then yes it can add to it, but when every single dialogue uses these crazy camera angles, it's like ... lolwut? who are you trying to impress?

that's not say i'm just a "LA LA LA I WANT ORIGINS BACK" person, but I don't really understand the fixation on cinematic cutscenes, I thought the point of those was to emphasise the effect of whatever's being portrayed, not for every single little piece of dialogue to be inundated with cool camera angles.

[tmp7704]

Destination Unknown wrote...

Lol, somewhat ambiguous!  Where is "anytime?" if not "anywhere?"  In other words, do explain.   Inquiring mind wants to know. 

I think it means something like "anytime you're in the camp or their home base" for example. It'd be a step up from DA2 approach where even if you visited the companion in their place, they only occasionally had any actual dialogue available, and most of the time you'd just get an equivalent of "i'm in the middle of some calibrations" from them.

edit: ,  everywhere

Modifié par tmp7704, 06 août 2011 - 06:14 .