1502 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

EJ107 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I admit it was upsetting to find out about the details through banter with Isabela and not between Hawke and Merrill.

However, the blood magic thing is something she tells the player when you ask her in her Act 2 quest. You don't have to rely on banter for that one.

Though I did like asking her about her life with the clan and her previous life with them when they weren't such pricks.

As for Origins banter, I remember that you found out a lot about Sten through eavesdropping and then bringing it up with him in conversation. I think the series should do that if you have to eavesdrop to find out things.

I'm sorry that I keep highlighting bits of your responses, but your bringing up exactly why I preferred Origins dialogue. Once you heard a particular banter you could talk to the character about it, learn more. In Dragon age 2 the banter was it. After Merrill told Anders that no spirits are 'good' I wanted to ask him how he felt about that, and whether it changed his opinion on Justice, but It was never really brought up again. 

I agree that it was nice to talk to Sten about Tal-Vashoth or Seheron after he brought it up. You were like "Wait... that was interesting. I want to talk to him about that."

Though Sten never really gave a clear answer because he's a Qunari.

[erynnar]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I admit it was upsetting to find out about the details through banter with Isabela and not between Hawke and Merrill.

However, the blood magic thing is something she tells the player when you ask her in her Act 2 quest. You don't have to rely on banter for that one.

Though I did like asking her about her life with the clan and her previous life with them when they weren't such pricks.

As for Origins banter, I remember that you found out a lot about Sten through eavesdropping and then bringing it up with him in conversation. I think the series should do that if you have to eavesdrop to find out things.

I'm sorry that I keep highlighting bits of your responses, but your bringing up exactly why I preferred Origins dialogue. Once you heard a particular banter you could talk to the character about it, learn more. In Dragon age 2 the banter was it. After Merrill told Anders that no spirits are 'good' I wanted to ask him how he felt about that, and whether it changed his opinion on Justice, but It was never really brought up again. 

I agree that it was nice to talk to Sten about Tal-Vashoth or Seheron after he brought it up. You were like "Wait... that was interesting. I want to talk to him about that."

Though Sten never really gave a clear answer because he's a Qunari.

He did give a clear answer on cookies...

[TEWR]

I imagine the cookies would be to the Qunari what individualism is to the Borg.


Sten: I bring.... cookies.

*entire Qunari society just collapses*



I also want to see a Disciple Ogre Emissary who enjoys cookies.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 06 août 2011 - 08:51 .

[jds1bio]

The fact that devs are spending part of their Saturday talking with the community instead of enjoying summer is not lost on me (unless you've been typing from your beach house!).

I think it's unfortunate that people weren't into the options presented on the dialog wheel, and aren't motivated to explore further how those 11 variations or options came about.  A bunch of those options presented to you were the result of decisions, actions, and words your Hawke said BEFORE you reached that point - particularly when getting other companions involved - not just options presented to you because you just HAPPEN to be at that point.  And for all the talk of taking accessibility too far, I find it interesting that the dialogue system ended up being a barrier to enjoyment for some long-time RPG fans.

I think it's also unfortunate that people aren't more open to the possibilities of what cinematic conversations can bring to the experience.  When conversations are staged in both time and space, they can include things like fistfights, competitive minigames, examining objects, casting spells, player-initiated gestures like bursting into an indoor location, hugging, kissing, slamming your fist on the table in disgust - in other words, more gameplay.  If you say "no" to dialogue cinematics in DA, but enjoyed games like ME2 or TW2, you may actually be more in favor of these cinematics than you realize.

Modifié par jds1bio, 06 août 2011 - 09:17 .

[erynnar]

jds1bio wrote...

The fact that devs are spending part of their Saturday talking with the community instead of enjoying summer is not lost on me (unless you've been typing from your beach house!).

I think it's unfortuante that people weren't into the options presented on the dialog wheel, and aren't motivated to explore further how those 11 variations or options came about.  A bunch of those options presented to you were the result of decisions, actions, and words your Hawke said BEFORE you reached that point - particularly when getting other companions involved - not just options presented to you because you just HAPPEN to be at that point.  And for all the talk of taking accessibility too far, I find it interesting that the dialogue system ended up being a barrier to enjoyment for some long-time RPG fans.

I think it's also unfortunate that people aren't more open to the possibilities of what cinematic conversations can bring to the experience.  When conversations are staged in both time and space, they can include things like fistfights, competitive minigames, examining objects, casting spells, player-initiated gestures like bursting into an indoor location, hugging, kissing, slamming your fist on the table in disgust - in other words, more gameplay.  If you say "no" to dialogue cinematics in DA, but enjoyed games like ME2 or TW2, you may actually be more in favor of these cinematics than you realize.

I am not saying no to them in there entirety. I do like TW2 and ME2. But I don't want a clicky interactive movie with quest comercial breaks. I think DAO did cinematics better. I think TW2 and ME2 do it better too.  And yes, it was a barrier for many reasons (paraphrasing in such a way it was a mystery being one, again TW2 did it better, I was never shocked at what came out of Geralt's mouth).

And it's not about being open to the possiblity. It's wondering when games are going to turn into a movie which you pause and hit a button to see which way the movie goes instead of actually playing the game.

And I thank the devs too for spending time with us on a Saturday. Are you guys nuts? Just askin'.   Really, thanks.

Modifié par erynnar, 06 août 2011 - 09:07 .

[thegoldfinch]

phaonica wrote...

pixieface wrote...

I agree. I like the paraphrases and having a voice but they were sometimes unclear. A problem I had in particular was that I wanted to play a serious, no-nonsense character. With the red fist, I tended to get a mixture of rude, agressive, and the seriousness I desired. The gavel was specifically supposed to be serious if my memory is not being janky today, but the dialogue also sometimes came out as rude anyway. I think a specific response needs to be tied to one specific icon. Variances result in surprises and surprises in this department are not desireable.

I wonder if the dialog choices would be more intuitive if tied to actions instead of tones. For example, instead of 'diplomatic' and 'sarcastic' our option icons would be more like: agree, disagree politely, disagree agressively, insult, joke, comfort, etc.

That's actually what I thought DA2 would have when they first anounced the voiced protagonist. Were this used, there wouldn't be a set "personality" anymore that could be tracked to feed into ambient banter between companions and Hawke. But I think that the tendency to act more diplomatic or light hearted could still be tracked just as easily. I don't even know if it's feasible because I am very certain it would result in more dialogue and therefore more money and time being put into it.

I sure would like to see it if it is possible, though.

I think another issue with the diplomatic, humorous and agressive options is that a lot of people seem to dislike the appearance of being pigeonholed into one personality. I say appearance because you can still role play, like I did, and make up different traits to the character not seen during dialogue. But the game only recognizes the major personality trait of, say, diplomacy.

I mean, even if you still played all the diplomatic choices in the solution we talked about the most important thing is that the game did not actually deem you "diplomatic". People don't like to be told what they are, if it is indeed accurate. The game can say, but you are diplomatic. That is what every choice you have ever made indicates. The player can say, yes, but there is more to my character than that but you are an inanimate object so you can't read between the lines. I don't think the player wants the game to assume that the diplomacy is all that there is to their character's personality, even if the developers did not intend for the personality options to have that effect on people. A shy, quiet girl does not want everyone to assume that her shyness is all that there is to her.

/shrug. May not be accurate but it's what I see.

Modifié par pixieface, 06 août 2011 - 09:17 .

[Blastback]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I imagine the cookies would be to the Qunari what individualism is to the Borg.


Sten: I bring.... cookies.

*entire Qunari society just collapses*



I also want to see a Disciple Ogre Emissary who enjoys cookies.

I want to see this in the next game.

[rak72]

I don't think anyone is saying no to cinematic, just that it doesn't have to be every time. Save it for the special moments, and throw in some not so important conversations that don't require it. It would help people feel like participants rather than observers. Basically what erynnar said above me

[alex90c]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

All I care about is being able to kiss my LI when I want. Bioware I better be able to kiss Merrill in the expansion whenever I want.

or you and I are going to rumble.

I like you and all...

but...

Merrill

...

[TEWR]

alex90c wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

All I care about is being able to kiss my LI when I want. Bioware I better be able to kiss Merrill in the expansion whenever I want.

or you and I are going to rumble.

I like you and all...

but...

Merrill

...

*snipped the massive frowny face*

Merrill is the best. Even better than Morrigan. Especially on the Friendship path.

[erynnar]

rak72 wrote...

I don't think anyone is saying no to cinematic, just that it doesn't have to be every time. Save it for the special moments, and throw in some not so important conversations that don't require it. It would help people feel like participants rather than observers. Basically what erynnar said above me

The cinematics can, and I think were to an extent, over done in DA2. It became all there was. I was no agent in moving the game along, instead all I found myself doing was waiting for the comercial to end and the next movie scene to start. That also broke immersion.

That and I found the cinematics didn't allow me to loot either. I would go to loot and the movied would start, then end and set me outside. If I didn't want to lose money or items I had to stop one character from fighting to go pick up bags and search bodies. This is not fun, nor should it happen. Again, a sense of control was taken from me throwing me out of the game.  It happens in DAO too, but not very often. DA2 it happens a lot.

And overusing the cinematics makes them not as impactful, or insightful as they could be. In fact, I found them annoying at interrupting my game play. That's how over used they were in DA2.

[Tirfan]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Merrill is the best. Even better than Morrigan. Especially on the Friendship path. 

Blasphemy!
Where is my pitchfork.

Morrigan is perfection.

[alex90c]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

alex90c wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

All I care about is being able to kiss my LI when I want. Bioware I better be able to kiss Merrill in the expansion whenever I want.

or you and I are going to rumble.

I like you and all...

but...

Merrill

...

*snipped the massive frowny face*

Merrill is the best. Even better than Morrigan. Especially on the Friendship path.

Merrill: sup hawke look at me doin all this stupid blood mage sh*t

Hawke: GO MERRILL GO

[Saintthanksgiving]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

And to be clear, nothing Dave or I have said rules out things like the Awakening dialogs out in the world. Those are totally possible.

I think we are getting a little too attached to things that we don't need to stress over.  The ability to stop anywhere, at any time, to interact in any way you want, would be nice... but it isnt everything.  It is certainly not the biggest issue that we need addressed for future releases.

The talking heads idea is a step backwards... I think thats what they are getting at here.  I don't really have a problem with placing a high production value on  interactions.  I dont think that every conversation has to be a cinematic masterpiece.... but if you are trying to increase the quality of a game in EVERY way... including cosmetically... its an understandable notion.

I dont think that set locations for conversations are all that terrible, neither are plot specific encounter type conversations placed throughout the game world.  The important issue will be the depth and content of the conversation, not where they happened. (I would also vote for MORE interactions, but thats a seperate issue)

as far as on the road interaction, the only issue I would have with "barking" is making sure that it was relevant.  If someone decides to spout off, make sure its somehow related to either the people you are with, or the specific quest that you are working on.  Jokes and one liners are fine too. 

Basically, We dont need to have a deep philosophical discussion every time we kill a monster, but it would be nice if someone had a clever one-liner to go with the victory.

[TEWR]

alex90c wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

alex90c wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

All I care about is being able to kiss my LI when I want. Bioware I better be able to kiss Merrill in the expansion whenever I want.

or you and I are going to rumble.

I like you and all...

but...

Merrill

...

*snipped the massive frowny face*

Merrill is the best. Even better than Morrigan. Especially on the Friendship path.

Merrill: sup hawke look at me doin all this stupid blood mage sh*t

Hawke: GO MERRILL GO

oh you don't even want to start talking bad stuff about Merrill with me around. I will defend her like crazy

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 06 août 2011 - 09:31 .

[nitefyre410]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

alex90c wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

alex90c wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

All I care about is being able to kiss my LI when I want. Bioware I better be able to kiss Merrill in the expansion whenever I want.

or you and I are going to rumble.

I like you and all...

but...

Merrill

...

*snipped the massive frowny face*

Merrill is the best. Even better than Morrigan. Especially on the Friendship path.

Merrill: sup hawke look at me doin all this stupid blood mage sh*t

Hawke: GO MERRILL GO

oh you don't even want to start talking bad stuff about Merrill with me around. I will defend her like crazy

 


/co -sign

*stands behind him with I  Merrill  T- shirt on* 

Modifié par nitefyre410, 06 août 2011 - 09:35 .

[jds1bio]

erynnar wrote...

I am not saying no to them in there entirety. I do like TW2 and ME2. But I don't want a clicky interactive movie with quest comercial breaks. I think DAO did cinematics better. I think TW2 and ME2 do it better too.  And yes, it was a barrier for many reasons (paraphrasing in such a way it was a mystery being one, again TW2 did it better, I was never shocked at what came out of Geralt's mouth).

pixieface wrote...

phaonica wrote...

I wonder if the dialog choices would be more intuitive if tied to actions instead of tones. For example, instead of 'diplomatic' and 'sarcastic' our option icons would be more like: agree, disagree politely, disagree agressively, insult, joke, comfort, etc.

That's actually what I thought DA2 would have when they first anounced the voiced protagonist. Were this used, there wouldn't be a set "personality" anymore that could be tracked to feed into ambient banter between companions and Hawke. But I think that the tendency to act more diplomatic or light hearted could still be tracked just as easily. I don't even know if it's feasible because I am very certain it would result in more dialogue and therefore more money and time being put into it.

I think that part of the issue is that we tend to remember what our actions were (save-a-life/take-a-life, agree/disagree, persuade/intimidate) in a conversation much better than what our tone was and even some of the words we said.  The game does a better job of tracking this than we do during gameplay - getting back into convo after 20 minutes of combat we're sometimes thrown off a bit by the initial tone taken by Hawke.

So if, like someone said above they want to despise Isabela, maybe it would be more effective to select a posture to adopt for the particular conversation before selecting any actual thought-phrases.  Then, perhaps based on the response from Isabela, you would get a timed set of options (think ME2's flashing paragon/renegade but with two or three options) at certain points allowing you to change your posture before continuing to speak.  For instance, you can start out with a diplomatic posture, but then decide that what Isabela said pissed you off and take advantage of a posture change to throw your drink at her or something before telling her off.  NOW you're taking advantage of cinematics.

Modifié par jds1bio, 06 août 2011 - 09:37 .

[erynnar]

jds1bio wrote...

erynnar wrote...

I am not saying no to them in there entirety. I do like TW2 and ME2. But I don't want a clicky interactive movie with quest comercial breaks. I think DAO did cinematics better. I think TW2 and ME2 do it better too.  And yes, it was a barrier for many reasons (paraphrasing in such a way it was a mystery being one, again TW2 did it better, I was never shocked at what came out of Geralt's mouth).

pixieface wrote...

phaonica wrote...

I wonder if the dialog choices would be more intuitive if tied to actions instead of tones. For example, instead of 'diplomatic' and 'sarcastic' our option icons would be more like: agree, disagree politely, disagree agressively, insult, joke, comfort, etc.

That's actually what I thought DA2 would have when they first anounced the voiced protagonist. Were this used, there wouldn't be a set "personality" anymore that could be tracked to feed into ambient banter between companions and Hawke. But I think that the tendency to act more diplomatic or light hearted could still be tracked just as easily. I don't even know if it's feasible because I am very certain it would result in more dialogue and therefore more money and time being put into it.

I think that part of the issue is that we tend to remember what our actions were (save-a-life/take-a-life, agree/disagree, persuade/intimidate) in a conversation much better than what our tone was and even some of the words we said.  The game does a better job of tracking this than we do during gameplay - getting back into convo after 20 minutes of combat we're sometimes thrown off a bit by the initial tone taken by Hawke.

So if, like someone said above they want to despise Isabela, maybe it would be more effective to select a posture to adopt for the particular conversation before selecting any actual thought-phrases.  Then, perhaps based on the response from Isabela, you would get a timed set of options (think ME2's flashing paragon/renegade but with two or three options) at certain points allowing you to change your posture before continuing to speak.  For instance, you can start out with a diplomatic posture, but then decide that what Isabela said pissed you off and take advantage of a posture change to throw your drink at her or something before telling her off.  NOW you're taking advantage of cinematics.

Again with the ME in my Dragon Age. I am tired of the ME'ing of DA. I have ME for ME, and I like DA the DAO way. I wish they would strip out the ME things entirely ( the dialogue wheel for one, just give me a list of paraphrase with an icon ala TW2 if we must).

Still, I think the cinematics have been way over used in DA2. I don't want an movie where I play by doing comercial quests to get to the next movie. And what about the forced cinematics where I get shoved out the door so I can't go back and loot (ie in the Chantry after the battle with Karl and the Templars)?

[andraip]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

(...)

We have suggested several elements of compromise already, but the argument could theoretically go on forever, since it's effectively, a debate. And that's fine, but there are times when I or a dev might come in to say "We're going to do X, and we appreciate the feedback, but the decision is made." The goal, of course, is to inform you guys where we're headed, not to be big ogres who make arbitrary decisions.

Some people react very negatively to that kind of response, but what I have overwhelmingly heard in this thread is that people want clear, concise communication. Sometimes clear concise communication will result in a response you do not want to hear, and I certainly could do without the conflict that sometimes erupts over decisions, but I think that in the long run I'd rather you folks know what we're doing over waffling around and saying an endless stream of maybes.

So much THIS.

+100 Aproval

[b1322]

erynnar wrote...

jds1bio wrote...

erynnar wrote...

I am not saying no to them in there entirety. I do like TW2 and ME2. But I don't want a clicky interactive movie with quest comercial breaks. I think DAO did cinematics better. I think TW2 and ME2 do it better too.  And yes, it was a barrier for many reasons (paraphrasing in such a way it was a mystery being one, again TW2 did it better, I was never shocked at what came out of Geralt's mouth).

pixieface wrote...

phaonica wrote...

I wonder if the dialog choices would be more intuitive if tied to actions instead of tones. For example, instead of 'diplomatic' and 'sarcastic' our option icons would be more like: agree, disagree politely, disagree agressively, insult, joke, comfort, etc.

That's actually what I thought DA2 would have when they first anounced the voiced protagonist. Were this used, there wouldn't be a set "personality" anymore that could be tracked to feed into ambient banter between companions and Hawke. But I think that the tendency to act more diplomatic or light hearted could still be tracked just as easily. I don't even know if it's feasible because I am very certain it would result in more dialogue and therefore more money and time being put into it.

I think that part of the issue is that we tend to remember what our actions were (save-a-life/take-a-life, agree/disagree, persuade/intimidate) in a conversation much better than what our tone was and even some of the words we said.  The game does a better job of tracking this than we do during gameplay - getting back into convo after 20 minutes of combat we're sometimes thrown off a bit by the initial tone taken by Hawke.

So if, like someone said above they want to despise Isabela, maybe it would be more effective to select a posture to adopt for the particular conversation before selecting any actual thought-phrases.  Then, perhaps based on the response from Isabela, you would get a timed set of options (think ME2's flashing paragon/renegade but with two or three options) at certain points allowing you to change your posture before continuing to speak.  For instance, you can start out with a diplomatic posture, but then decide that what Isabela said pissed you off and take advantage of a posture change to throw your drink at her or something before telling her off.  NOW you're taking advantage of cinematics.

Again with the ME in my Dragon Age. I am tired of the ME'ing of DA. I have ME for ME, and I like DA the DAO way. I wish they would strip out the ME things entirely ( the dialogue wheel for one, just give me a list of paraphrase with an icon ala TW2 if we must).

Still, I think the cinematics have been way over used in DA2. I don't want an movie where I play by doing comercial quests to get to the next movie. And what about the forced cinematics where I get shoved out the door so I can't go back and loot (ie in the Chantry after the battle with Karl and the Templars)?

I think  you are absolutely right, there is too much ME in DA, why I dont understand and why try and fix DAO when it wasnt broken I dont understand either. They made such a great game and decided it didnt work.

[b1322]

I am also extremely curious to know if Bioware intends to bring back some of the depth there was in origins into da3? An examble would be when Leliana started singing that emotional song and when she sang they showed each party members reaction one by one around the camp doing different things, to her singing, it felt so real.

[Addai]

ipgd wrote...
I think this sort of thing would still just lead to people skipping through player VA, which I believe is the thing that originally brought on the need for paraphrases. It solves the problems for the people who want the full line, but not the problems that necessitated the use of paraphrases in the first place (which may not be personal problems for you, but still problems the developers have to deal with).

I'm confused.  Why shouldn't people be able to Esc through dialogue if they don't want to hear it?  I do this in Fallout a lot.  I can read faster than the scene can play, so having a toggle that allows you to pull up the dialogue, read it, then skip the VO sounds like a win-win to me- if it can be implemented well.

In fact, I LOVE that idea.  It would allow those of us who hate voiced protagonist to skip through the PC blathering and recreate a silent protag experience without taking voiced protag away from those who want it.

[TEWR]

I liked that scene.

I didn't like the mouth movements for the singing though. Didn't mesh very well. Or was it the voice that didn't fit for Leliana? I can't remember.

[tmp7704]

Sylvianus wrote...

They made ​​a decision and they have already real ideas, inspired a little from feedback.

More that 15 pages that the discussion returns to exactly the same point, this point that is over since a long time. They repeated that a decision was made. Except to suggest something, I don't see what is the point to remain exactly on the same point.

It's worth it ? You want to scare them or what ?

Would imagine the feedback/suggestions can be still useful for another title down the road, not necessarily the most imminent one. After all just because decision was made doesn't mean it's now going to remain fixed in stone forever... to the contrary if anything, we can see the systems and approach change and evolve with each game and expansion released.