1502 réponses à ce sujet

[b1322]

LPPrince wrote...

LONGER HAIRSTYLES.

I definitely  vote for that  Why do games never have long hair for the character? Is it difficult to make? I have always wondered.

[Achkas]

I know all my comments here have just been to make certain aspects of DA2 gameplay like various other games, so this is the final one of that kind: if you really want to make the combat immersive, don't half-heartedly move away from DA:O's combat, it did not work. Either have it in all that complexity of the first game, or move entirely away to something else. Demon's Souls could provide a very good model for RPG combat; I found that game's combat system without a shadow of a doubt the most fun I've ever had with any game in this genre, at least at the level of combat. It was an action RPG, but one with a lot more depth than most tactical RPGs. You felt like you raised your shield when you raised your shield, and you felt like you were swinging your sword when you wanted to swing your sword. It was so tactile and linked to player control.

[LPPrince]

b1322 wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

LONGER HAIRSTYLES.

I definitely  vote for that  Why do games never have long hair for the character? Is it difficult to make? I have always wondered.

Usually the issue is clipping through objects, looking like one piece of plastic, etc etc.

Hair is REALLY hard to animate well. They went over this in some commentary for the movie Tangled.

[Wozearly]

b1322 wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

LONGER HAIRSTYLES.

I definitely  vote for that  Why do games never have long hair for the character? Is it difficult to make? I have always wondered.

Usually due to clipping issues - speaking generally about character modelling, hair is normally grafted onto the head as a static (or relatively static) object that's fixed in place. Some strands may be animated to move in the wind (etc) to add some realism, but graphically its usually treated as a solid mass.

This becomes a problem when the character turns their head, and their long hair passes through their shoulder rather than spilling naturally over it. You can get away with it if the hair isn't too long, but the amount of time that would need to be devoted to making long hair act like hair and not look stupid on a regular basis would far outweigh any benefit gained from doing so.

Although I suppose the other alternative is to force long-haired characters to wear a neck brace and never turn their head more than an inch or two to either side.

[TEWR]

Dammit give me long hair and chest hair for my characters!

Some of DA2's hairstyles were animated nicely. Aveline's and Decimus' come to mind, though their hair was medium length.

If I had to have static long hair, then I'd happily have static long hair. I mean, I played Origins and the hair in there was static entirely.

[LPPrince]

Damn.

Listening to the DAO theme makes me nostalgic for what it used to be.

[b1322]

LPPrince wrote...

Damn.

Listening to the DAO theme makes me nostalgic for what it used to be.

I guess we are nostalgic when it comes to origins, I downloaded the soundtrack to my cell phone so I get to listen to it often, it was way better than the music in da2 sorry bioware.

[Wozearly]

Kothoses Rothenkisal wrote...

Mike_Neel wrote...

This thread seems to be more like the constructive criticism thread at this point. We seem to now be weighing in more on the changes we do or don't like seen taken in the DA franchise now.

This is why we have had something of a downtrend in the amount of BW posts in here.  Intitially it was a discussion about how the community get involved in influencing change and progress, but since there were dev posts a lot of people have just thought "ohh look devs, lets post in here" .  It did however serve the purpose of proving that if you present your self in a rational way, give good commentary and feedback you can get the interaction you desire so on that score the thread probably ran its course already.

Now whats left is to discuss what was already said really, so in that sense it becomes a "what I like and what I dont like" thread, rather than a discussion of how to further enable two way dialogues.

In some ways thats good in others bad, but my own attempts to get things back towards the initial topic seem to get lost in the sea of "I want this in DA 3" so we go with the flow.

Its been an interesting thread. The original discussion clearly drew some developer attention. It has evolved off in multiple directions as people have spotted developers responding to queries and suggestions (great thing) and so added their own, but I guess that was always expected.

What was notable by its absence was a relative lack of people bashing DA2 and no lynch mobs descending on Mike Laidlaw and demanding his resignation / sacking / immediate execution. I'm not sure whether that's been driven by the overall tone of the thread, or the presence of the devs, or the fact that the self-policing in this thread is better than usual, or whether the majority of angry people have just calmed down a bit by now...but its been good to see. And that constructive environment with devs answering sensible questions has been hugely beneficial to people who did want to know more of what the DA team were thinking.

The 'right' thing to do is probably take a few bits out into separate threads for discussion, as I think any hope of returning to the original topic is now long gone.

[Kothoses Rothenkisal]

AloraKast wrote...

Kothoses Rothenkisal wrote...

Mike_Neel wrote...

This thread seems to be more like the constructive criticism thread at this point. We seem to now be weighing in more on the changes we do or don't like seen taken in the DA franchise now.

This is why we have had something of a downtrend in the amount of BW posts in here.  Intitially it was a discussion about how the community get involved in influencing change and progress, but since there were dev posts a lot of people have just thought "ohh look devs, lets post in here" .  It did however serve the purpose of proving that if you present your self in a rational way, give good commentary and feedback you can get the interaction you desire so on that score the thread probably ran its course already.

Now whats left is to discuss what was already said really, so in that sense it becomes a "what I like and what I dont like" thread, rather than a discussion of how to further enable two way dialogues.

In some ways thats good in others bad, but my own attempts to get things back towards the initial topic seem to get lost in the sea of "I want this in DA 3" so we go with the flow.

You know Kothoses, this makes me ponder...

I have thoroughly enjoyed following this thread and even made a few posts , the community interaction has been fantastic and the dev participation has been truly amazing (FYI, as much as the devs ADORE tears, kisses seem to work as well - Mike gets a plate of fresh out of the oven, ooey gooey brownies for being the first dev evah to directly reply - yes, I'm still a bit starstruck... either that or you can always follow TEWR's suggestion about images of drunk, naked Oghren, which somehow seem to make Monsieur Epler come out of the woodwork ).

Seriously though, this has been such a tremendously enlightening experience, being on here, following the discussions between the community and the devs. The level of discussion has been positively marvellous and it all felt so natural, on that human level. I truly wish that we could enjoy more of such interactions. Perhaps what made it so was the atmosphere created in this thread, without any expectations, without restrictions (in a sence that this thread has evolved so much, we covered so many different topics, it's quite astouding really), this carefree, welcoming atmosphere where everyone (community and dev alike) felt safe to come and interact with each other. Perhpas my impressions are a bit off but I got the sense that the atmosphere that was created here (which began by rational and articulate community members coming here and voicing their opinion and providing ideas) made everyone feel safe and welcomed, perhaps some of the super tight control that the devs have learned to adopt over time while skimming these forums was relaxed a bit, perhaps this understanding came to be that while yes, the devs are around and interacting, please by no means take anything and everything what is said in this casual environment as set in stone. Things change, plans don't pan out for whatever reason, decisions are made down the line that go against what we had planned before... we merely have to keep that in mind. Of course, there still remains some measure of control and I certainly don't expect the devs to tell us everything they are working on, reveal all their secrets, but I got the feeling that the death grip of a control that the devs have learned to adopt was relaxed somewhat and thus we ended up with the splendid experience of community and dev interaction... in a relaxed, informal environment.

And I have thoroughly enjoyed experiencing that human connection of community and dev involvement and can only hope to experience it again in the future.

Of course, I could be totally off in my interpretation, but there you have it.

But anyways, my point. Yes, I have been thinking that there is only so much feedback the devs can take into consideration, right? Especially with a product like DA2, after a while it must get terribly draining to be hearing the same "flaws" or dislikes being pointed out time and again... or hearing the same old discussions on the subject that people can't agree on. It's all subjective anyways and we really can't expect for the devs to come on these forums and state the same answers or comments to the same old debates over and over again. So I wonder, at what point do these debates become redundant and the devs - and some of the community even - don't bother participating, for what can we say that hasn't been said already? But at the same time, discussions can certainly be productive and yield debates among the dev team themselves, as evidence by this thread. In our many discussions, HFIC brought up a very interesting counter-argument to the old discussion of Kirkwall being lifeless, etc. Which in turn spurred a discussion among the dev team. So my question is, at what point in the various debates do we say, "Ok, we have covered these topics so many times, debated the different points of view to death, everyone must be intimately aware about the subject matter and there couldn't possibly be any new ideas or points of view on this subject to be taken into consideration, so let's just not bother with rehashing the same old for the gazillionth time, eh?"

Furthermore, I am still curious about the issue of subjectivity and how, if at all, does that factor into the decision making process for the next product.

Apologies if this rantish post doesn't make much sense, it is rather late and I am tired. I just wanted to thank Kothoses for creating this thread and giving us this opportunity, this platform for mature and rational discussion, I'd like to thank all of you for creating the welcoming atmosphere found in this thread and I'd like to thank the devs for coming in here, sticking their necks out (perhaps even getting in trouble with PR ) and interacting with us on that (what I perceive to be) human and free level. It has been a truly amazing experience. Let's all work towards making more of these possible.

PS. LPPrince, I really like your "The Warden Rises" story. Please, would you continue? Am curious as to what happens next.

Could not agree with you more, it has been such a refreshing change to have opinions and views debated and discussed without the worry of people being misrepresented.  (Though a few of the PC gaming sites that picked up on this threads existence did try and turn it into another lets bash Mike session) Most people posting here did so in good spirit and that is why I think we got so much interaction here.  People were discussing not "what was wrong with DA" but "How can we help them remember what it was that made us love Bioware in the first place" it was not a debate about what was wrong but more a debate about how we as a community can present our feedback in a way that is useful and constructive.

This I think is in turn what sparked a session of essentially Questions and answers, which  in turn brought more people into the debate.  One dev said to me that he thought a big part of the reason for this was timing too, Legacy (Which I was not going to buy but based on this thread I now probably will) had tempered some of the ill reaction to DA 2 by addressing some of its flaws and peoples attitudes had shifted just a little bit so the timing for such a debate was perfect in addition to all the other factors.  He might well be right there certainly if I were a developer I would not answer openly and without defensiveness in any thread that bashed or overly criticised me.

This kind of interaction was one of the end goals of starting the Promoting Thought Project and to be honest, though while I would love to take credit for this thread, it was more just the quality of posts from everyone that attracted the devs in here, certainly not my video blogs.   But thats the point really when the community engages positively and the developers pick up on that I do think that community can be a resource for improvement and growth not just a drain on existing resources.

As for where do you draw the line on a debate, I dont think there is a hard and fast rule, but more a gut feeling, you can tell when a thread or a debate has reached the highest point of its usefulness and after that will either fade into obscurity or burn up on circular arguments like a star that has gone supernova.  Sure there will be more fuel for posts but when that fuel is the posts them selves rather than the debate at the heart of them, thats when you know its pretty much done as a constructive debate

Not saying thats the case here yet (I have my opinion on that but I will keep schtum about it) but in my general experience that is the way of things on the internet.

Modifié par Kothoses Rothenkisal, 09 août 2011 - 07:25 .

[b1322]

Wozearly wrote...

b1322 wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

LONGER HAIRSTYLES.

I definitely  vote for that  Why do games never have long hair for the character? Is it difficult to make? I have always wondered.

Usually due to clipping issues - speaking generally about character modelling, hair is normally grafted onto the head as a static (or relatively static) object that's fixed in place. Some strands may be animated to move in the wind (etc) to add some realism, but graphically its usually treated as a solid mass.

This becomes a problem when the character turns their head, and their long hair passes through their shoulder rather than spilling naturally over it. You can get away with it if the hair isn't too long, but the amount of time that would need to be devoted to making long hair act like hair and not look stupid on a regular basis would far outweigh any benefit gained from doing so.

Although I suppose the other alternative is to force long-haired characters to wear a neck brace and never turn their head more than an inch or two to either side.

I see, thanks for explaining it to me and thanks to Lpprince for explaining it as well. For the pc version of origins, someone has made long hair as mods and that didnt look wrong or anything, so how hard can it be?

[Kothoses Rothenkisal]

Wozearly wrote...

Kothoses Rothenkisal wrote...

Mike_Neel wrote...

This thread seems to be more like the constructive criticism thread at this point. We seem to now be weighing in more on the changes we do or don't like seen taken in the DA franchise now.

This is why we have had something of a downtrend in the amount of BW posts in here.  Intitially it was a discussion about how the community get involved in influencing change and progress, but since there were dev posts a lot of people have just thought "ohh look devs, lets post in here" .  It did however serve the purpose of proving that if you present your self in a rational way, give good commentary and feedback you can get the interaction you desire so on that score the thread probably ran its course already.

Now whats left is to discuss what was already said really, so in that sense it becomes a "what I like and what I dont like" thread, rather than a discussion of how to further enable two way dialogues.

In some ways thats good in others bad, but my own attempts to get things back towards the initial topic seem to get lost in the sea of "I want this in DA 3" so we go with the flow.

Its been an interesting thread. The original discussion clearly drew some developer attention. It has evolved off in multiple directions as people have spotted developers responding to queries and suggestions (great thing) and so added their own, but I guess that was always expected.

What was notable by its absence was a relative lack of people bashing DA2 and no lynch mobs descending on Mike Laidlaw and demanding his resignation / sacking / immediate execution. I'm not sure whether that's been driven by the overall tone of the thread, or the presence of the devs, or the fact that the self-policing in this thread is better than usual, or whether the majority of angry people have just calmed down a bit by now...but its been good to see. And that constructive environment with devs answering sensible questions has been hugely beneficial to people who did want to know more of what the DA team were thinking.

The 'right' thing to do is probably take a few bits out into separate threads for discussion, as I think any hope of returning to the original topic is now long gone.

It has been a very enjoyable discussion and later today I am going to try expanding my friends list considerably with some of the people who I would like to keep track of in future threads and discussions.  I would like to think that the people who took part in this discussion will take the tone and attitude of this thread and spread it to other discussions, I know thats not likely to happen but if it did it would make the forums in general much more pleasant.

Thats not to say there isnt a time and a place for a bit of anger, but it needs to be restrained and not personal or attacking, I am a firm believer in the old adage that all you get by attacking some one is a defensive response and then a counter.  So its been good to see an acknowledgement that people like Mike Laidlaw are infact human beings and deserve the same respect as anyone else.  Makes me yearn for the old NWN community though.... good times good times.

[Kothoses Rothenkisal]

LPPrince wrote...

Damn.

Listening to the DAO theme makes me nostalgic for what it used to be.

Try listening to the camp music, I cant listen to that without my mind wandering to the world of Ferelden the thoughts of being the last thin line of defense and the hopeless struggle that the warden faces....

Time for another Origins play through soon I think....

[b1322]

Kothoses Rothenkisal wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

Damn.

Listening to the DAO theme makes me nostalgic for what it used to be.

Try listening to the camp music, I cant listen to that without my mind wandering to the world of Ferelden the thoughts of being the last thin line of defense and the hopeless struggle that the warden faces....

Time for another Origins play through soon I think....

Listening to it right now... as I have restarted origins.

[LPPrince]

AloraKast wrote...

PS. LPPrince, I really like your "The Warden Rises" story. Please, would you continue? Am curious as to what happens next.

It wasn't really a story. More of a introduction to the premise of a DLC that would feature the returning Duncan seeking out The Warden to help him evade or eliminate the darkspawn chasing after him. Maybe even giving Duncan the taint again. Questioning whether thats worth doing, knowing his age. Whether losing the taint gained him all the years of life he would've lost as a Warden. What losing the taint did to him as a person.

If I were to make that into a full blown story, God. I could do it, but it would take forever, and I'm not really enthused to type out a rich story like that. At least, not now.

Let the devs handle it. 

[LPPrince]

Dragon Age Origins- Camp Theme

Listening to that, I can drift into the world of Origins. Relax by the fire, and marinate.

Nothing comes CLOSE to that in DA2. Hell, I don't even want to mention DA2 while I listen to the song, it ruins the moment.

*thinks of DAO, of Morrigan, of Leliana, of the events of the game, of the camp fire*

Modifié par LPPrince, 09 août 2011 - 07:42 .

[Gunderic]

LPPrince wrote...

Damn.

Listening to the DAO theme makes me nostalgic for what it used to be.

... Busted?

[AudioEpics]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

Third,  I apologize for suggesting you were a fan of the Star Wars Prequels in an earlier thread.  That was uncalled for.

No kidding! Talk about a personal attack.

Hey, I am a fan of the prequels, now I feel offended by the guys who are constantly telling everyone not to offend people! It's okay though, I'm pretty much used to it ^^

[AudioEpics]

ademska wrote...

i'm sure he'll stop crying eventually, ken.

if i'm going to add anything remotely constructive to this thread, it's that the complexity and unconventionality of the plot in da2 was easily one of my favorite aspects of it, in the wake of legacy (which, don't get me wrong, i absolutely adore) and its more standard rpg plot fare, my hope going forward is that your vision for the dragon age universe continues to involve nuanced, non-traditional narratives.

the worldbuilding of thedas has been so thorough and enjoyable thus far that it'd be a shame to waste it on another all-the-nations-band-together-to-fend-off-ultimate-evil-esque plot. of course, since da2 was your baby in the first place, i've got every confidence this won't happen.

I second this!

[Kwanzaabot]

David Gaider wrote...

[snip]

The technical hurdle I referred to is that ambient dialogue doesn't offer the possibility of player interaction. If we can solve that hurdle, then we can use ambient dialogue to a greater degree as regular (if non-vital) communication. If not, we still intend to have it play more organically (a la Legacy).

[/snip]

I don't know if someone's brought this up since I don't have the time to scour the million billion pages in this thread (I've pretty much only been reading dev replies), but waaaaay back in 2004, Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas did exactly this.

You're walking through some ghetto in Los Santos, when a friendly gang member barks a greeting. By pressing the left or right D-pad button, you could give a positive or negative response.

Maybe not the amount of interactivity some people would like, but I felt it was a nice touch.

Dragon Age 2 has the icons in the dialogue wheel, so maybe smaller, less obtrusive versions of them could hover above Hawke (or whoever), during some party banter, indicating that the player can press the D-pad (or W,A,S or D on a keyboard) at that moment to chime in with the appropriate response?

Presto, player-interactable ambient dialogue (which I'm guessing would require an engine rewrite, lol)

Modifié par Kwanzaabot, 09 août 2011 - 08:37 .

[b1322]

I just hope that they do find a proper solution to DA3 regarding the companion dialogue issue, I would be sad to see it be limited like in DA2.

[b1322]

Am I the only one to think that somehow the companions in DA1 were much more mature and "adult" like compaired to the ones in DA2? I felt like DA2´s companions were aimed more at the teenage fans than the older fans, they were more childish, not to say that I am old but I am not a teenager (I am 32).

[Reznore57]

I don't think they were childish at all .I actually like them better than the one in DA:O.You spend a lot of time with them , but you don't spend your whole life in a camp talking about personnal stuff because anyway you know that you may die tomorrow because of the blight.
In DA2 you really have to gain their friendship or respect and it means going thru personnal betrayal,different opinion .
The bad thing is the dialogue were related to personnal quest that you could do in a short time during an act.More dialogue related to other event would have been needed .Something like a gathering in the hanged man would have been fun , could have end up in a bar fight.

I feel like the act haven't been done properly , act 2 is the best(the qunari plot is well builded) act 1 lacks a good plot (the money thing for the expedition doesn't feel like something vital ) and act 3 was really too short .

[csfteeeer]

Blastback wrote...

Persephone wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I'd like to see more moments like Leiana's song. It was meaningless, and yet awesome. Watching some of the companions' react to it....etc etc.

So more "group moments" like that and not only "one on one"s between PC and companion. Group activities such as debates, hunting, partying...etc etc. It would convey the idea of being part of a group better, and would make them feel more like real people.

DA2 teased us with this, but didn't let us join in with Merril and Isabela in their card game, or talk to both Anders and Varric...etc.

This, ABSOLUTELY.

I loved the multi combo banters in DAII and Legacy. I want more of that. Much more!

Yes. Yesyesyesyesyesyes!

This Idea is so full of win.... that i can't even...

[b1322]

Reznore57 wrote...

I don't think they were childish at all .I actually like them better than the one in DA:O.You spend a lot of time with them , but you don't spend your whole life in a camp talking about personnal stuff because anyway you know that you may die tomorrow because of the blight.
In DA2 you really have to gain their friendship or respect and it means going thru personnal betrayal,different opinion .
The bad thing is the dialogue were related to personnal quest that you could do in a short time during an act.More dialogue related to other event would have been needed .Something like a gathering in the hanged man would have been fun , could have end up in a bar fight.

I feel like the act haven't been done properly , act 2 is the best(the qunari plot is well builded) act 1 lacks a good plot (the money thing for the expedition doesn't feel like something vital ) and act 3 was really too short .

I can agree to some of what you said, if there had been more dialogues then maybe it would have been easier to get to know them, that would have helped a lot but I didnt like that it was plot related.

[Persephone]

LPPrince wrote...

Dragon Age Origins- Camp Theme

Listening to that, I can drift into the world of Origins. Relax by the fire, and marinate.

Nothing comes CLOSE to that in DA2. Hell, I don't even want to mention DA2 while I listen to the song, it ruins the moment.

*thinks of DAO, of Morrigan, of Leliana, of the events of the game, of the camp fire*

Thinking of DAII while listening to this doesn't ruin the moment at all in my case. But I like both "Gone With The Wind" and "Scarlett" too, (And that is actual nostalgia material, since GWTW is a movie from 1939 and "Scarlett" a sequel from the 90ties and, very similar to DAO and DAII, if you love GWTW, you are pretty much obliged to LOATHE "Scarlett".)