1502 réponses à ce sujet

[Nerdage]

Jamie_edmo wrote...

I know what the devs meant when they made certain weapons class specific so that classes were more distinctive, but imo their shouldn't be any weapon restrictions (mages and staves excluded) it just makes the game more fun, warriors should at least be able to dual wield.

Edit: Plus remember in origins when you could charge into battle unarmed, with your fists those where the days lol:)

I have more fond memories of being able to give a melee character a bow when I didn't another melee. I don't need to be able to specialize everyone in it, but just the ability to give them a bow when melee dps aren't practical (high dragons, pride demons, ancient wraith) would've been nice.

Not that the slow-mo punches in DAO weren't fun, but if I had to choose, I'd choose bows.

[b1322]

KennethAFTopp wrote...

I realized something today, When Mr. Laidlaw says that he wants to reach a broader audience than what RPGs have already, does that mean he deliberately designs that way instead I think of design what a good game should be.
It sounds like, I am not saying it is true, but it sounds like Laidlaw purposefully wants to aim for a compromise design instead of letting the game speak for itself and let also reach it's OWN full potential.
Does that make sense? I am not sure it does.

I dont know. I dont want to offend Bioware but I cannot help but get the feeling that they are actually annoyed that a lot of fans loved origins, even though that they developed the game, shouldn´t they be happy about it instead?

Modifié par b1322, 09 août 2011 - 07:52 .

[Dragoonlordz]

Sylvianus wrote...

Forgive me, fixed.

Ok thanks, yeh I remember reading that now before and I think was good post too.

[KennethAFTopp]

b1322 wrote...

KennethAFTopp wrote...

I realized something today, When Mr. Laidlaw says that he wants to reach a broader audience than what RPGs have already, does that mean he deliberately designs that way instead I think of design what a good game should be.
It sounds like, I am not saying it is true, but it sounds like Laidlaw purposefully wants to aim for a compromise design instead of letting the game speak for itself and let also reach it's OWN full potential.
Does that make sense? I am not sure it does.

I dont know. I dont want to offend Bioware but I cannot help but get the feeling that they are actually annoyed that a lot of fans loved origins, even though that they developed the game, shouldn´t they be happy about it instead?

It never felt like they were bringing their A-game to Dragon Age II and I felt a little lied to when Chris Priestly said that the game wasn't rushed... it was.

[nitefyre410]

KennethAFTopp wrote...

I realized something today, When Mr. Laidlaw says that he wants to reach a broader audience than what RPGs have already, does that mean he deliberately designs that way instead I think of design what a good game should be.
It sounds like, I am not saying it is true, but it sounds like Laidlaw purposefully wants to aim for a compromise design instead of letting the game speak for itself and let also reach it's OWN full potential.
Does that make sense? I am not sure it does.

 

No...

What  he is saying  is that he wants to bring people who have not played an RPG in to the gerne.

by making it more accessible

that does not mean dumbing it down or comprising design.

that means making what is  on the screen easier for a new RPG player understand.

Example:  Through the Wormhole with Morgan Freeman  - a show about some of  the most complex science on the planet.  Yet  you and I could watch it and understand it because they present say something like quantum physic in way that we can understand  instead of  dumping a  ton of complex math on us.  That is accesiblity.   Street Fighter and  Marvel Vs Capcom 3 do this  amazingly well thich is why the fighting game genre has seen a rebirth. 

CRPGS /Wrpgs  can and could very well go the route of the JRPG who have been using the same designs for decades and have fell of greatly. While  DA:O was a great game it did nothing Amazingly different from say Baulders Gate.

SOrry if this sounds harsh than I mean it sound. 

Modifié par nitefyre410, 09 août 2011 - 08:03 .

[Pygmalin]

 Hi there, 
It does seem as though people are doing a good job of describing the issues with DA2, however what is lacking is some positives. Grant it I have not gone through every single post, but I wanted to say that in Legacy I see the changes and it shows that you as the developers are listening. I disagree with some who say they would like to customize companion Armor, I couldn't disagree more, I like not needing to fuss over them. However I get the point of Hawke not being able to wear 2/3 of the items.  Or for that matter seeing the stats on the items is a bit annoying.  

I talked about getting DA2 for two months and when I did recieve it, I have to be honest here, I was disapointed in the game. I don't want a repeat of Origins, but I did have a very high standard after playing Origins. Legacy really restored my faith in the series, and I really hope that you continue to improve and send out amazing DLC's. I know its probably been really hard listening to the harsh words and the blantent mean-ness of some people, but I commend you for keeping your cool, and being able to seperate BS from reality. 

A question I have is, Do you [Bioware] seek out an out side source to test the games and note the issues before launching? {issues such as the re-used areas}  I know there is deadlines to launch. But I am interested to know how its tested before release. 
Thanks for reading the ramble.

[Dragoonlordz]

KennethAFTopp wrote...

I realized something today, When Mr. Laidlaw says that he wants to reach a broader audience than what RPGs have already, does that mean he deliberately designs that way instead I think of design what a good game should be.
It sounds like, I am not saying it is true, but it sounds like Laidlaw purposefully wants to aim for a compromise design instead of letting the game speak for itself and let also reach it's OWN full potential.
Does that make sense? I am not sure it does.

Don't know and I can't read his mind but does seem to me to be trying to incorporate FPS, Action and such genre players into the RPG genre it has to mean that as people aren't really put off by inventory or choices, they just like one genre more than others... So unless Mike is bringing in aspects from that genre it isn't going to change much, generally people don't buy a game because it's simple they buy it because it has elements from the genre they like in it. Just like people who like FPS and shooters are more inclined to play ME series because has guns which is just one example they don't buy it originally because has simple/streamlined inventory system.

Most things being simplified are done so without any actual real reason from the perspective of say I watch Babylon 5 and like it I don't need to know what fuel is in the ships, why the station is shaped like a ****** or know every single characters background to enjoy watching it. Same imho applies to games. If was in order to simplify for new players the correct way imho is in game tooltips or instructions explaining that aspect or manual explaining, you don't strip the system imho instead just explain it better in first place...

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 09 août 2011 - 08:20 .

[nitefyre410]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

KennethAFTopp wrote...

I realized something today, When Mr. Laidlaw says that he wants to reach a broader audience than what RPGs have already, does that mean he deliberately designs that way instead I think of design what a good game should be.
It sounds like, I am not saying it is true, but it sounds like Laidlaw purposefully wants to aim for a compromise design instead of letting the game speak for itself and let also reach it's OWN full potential.
Does that make sense? I am not sure it does.

Don't know and I can't read his mind but does seem to me to be trying to incorporate FPS, Action and such genres into the RPG genre it has to mean that as people aren't really put off by inventory or choices, they just like one genre more than others... So unless Mike is bringing in aspects from that genre it isn't going to change much, generally people don't buy a game because it's simple they buy it because it has elements from the genre they like in it. Just like people who like FPS and shooters are more inclined to play ME series because has guns which is just one example they don't buy it originally because has simple/streamlined inventory system.

Most things being simplified are done so without any actual real reason from the perspective of say I watch Babylon 5 and like it I don't need to know what fuel is in the ships, why the station is shaped like a ****** or know every single NPC background to enjoy watching it. Same imho applies to games. If was in order to simplify for new players the correct way imho is in game tooltips or instructions explaining that aspect or manual explaining, you don't strip out the system instead just explain it better in first place...

you  can if you going to rebuild it  but never got the time needed to finish.   

Yeah the thing with tool tips is they  never really explain it well either matter of fact sometimes  the time some the tool tips make it worst. 

I am type of person i need to see in action  to get an understanding on how it works. God of War does this really well.

maybe a trail system set up through a Trainer NPC.

[Cutlasskiwi]

In Exile wrote...

b1322 wrote...

Yes fortunately it seems like we are getting a new character, I just wonder if it will be possible to play as an elf or dwarf again like in DA1, I hope Bioware could comment on that....

I personally hope for a fixed qunari protagonist. Barring that, I hope we have a fixed human. Nothing less interesting that dwarves and elves. 

I'm hoping for the same, but I'm having a hard time seeing BioWare having a fixed qunari for DA3.

I'll always vote for a fixed race if they can't figure out a better way of handling races and making it more interesting. You got a different start of the game and a few comments along the way and that's it. I would have loved to see race-specific quest in the main game, just something to make the origin matter.

[devSin]

KennethAFTopp wrote...

It never felt like they were bringing their A-game to Dragon Age II and I felt a little lied to when Chris Priestly said that the game wasn't rushed... it was.

That made even me a little uncomfortable.

When he added the definition of rushed, to clarify what he was saying the game wasn't going to be, and it ended up being exactly what many felt the game was... I'm not sure the best way to view something like that.

I guess maybe he didn't know how bad it was? He always cared about Mass Effect more, so maybe he just thought the team was in better shape than they were. I hope so.

I like Dragon Age II, but I also have to admit that the time constraints really show. The game was rushed.

Oh, well. Spilled milk. On to bigger and better futures, I guess.

Modifié par devSin, 09 août 2011 - 10:58 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

I dont care which race they have us play as long as we're allowed to set the PC's personality ourselves.

Just as we could in BG, NWN, KotOR, and DAO.

If we do not create the character's personality, then character's personality will not be completely known to us so that we can make decisions for him. If we do not know him perfectly, then we might possibly have him act inconsistently through the course of the game (including at the very beginning, when we don't know anything about him unless we've invented it or it is provided in the game's documentation). If the game does not allow us to make inconsistent choices under any circumstance, then we cannot be reasonably described as being on control at all.

The logic is clear. We need to create the PC's personality ourselves in order to make decisions for him. No other option allows us both choices and coherence.

[__nderscore]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
[Check above this post]

Now this isn't entirely untrue, but you're forgetting one thing. People change. Especially after traumatizing events such as everything and everyone you know being slaughtered by monsters and betrayed by men and forcedly removed from the only world you knew. With this we can assume it doesn't matter what you were before Ostagar, because it changed you so drastically it scarred you for the rest of your story, or possibly life.

(Bonus: I feel like you forgot to mention how DA:2 allowed you to choose a personality. Arguably it could be considered futile story-wise, but having character development is still pretty nice.)

Modifié par __nderscore, 09 août 2011 - 11:02 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

__nderscore wrote...

(Bonus: I feel like you forgot to mention how DA:2 allowed you to choose a personality. Arguably it could be considered futile story-wise, but having character development is still pretty nice.)

That the story has nothing to do with Hawke's personality is a huge selling point, I think.  DA2's plot does a good job of allowing Hawke to have his own motivations.

DA2's dialogue system, on the other hand, renders that victory moot, however.  Because we don't know what Hawke is going to say or how he's going to say it, we cannot be reasonably said to be choosing his behaviour.  So, while the plot would allow us to give Hawke nearly whatever personality we want, it doesn't matter, because his behaviour is effectively random.

We need to create the personality so that we can direct behaviour.  But DA2 doesn't even let us direct behaviour, so the coherence problem doesn't even have a chance to arise.  We're simply denied the gameplay entirely.

And that's not better.

[Wozearly]

Sylvianus wrote...

And by the way, I quote Barbarossa, my new hero today, he tells the truth for some of console gamers ( xbox ) like me who didn't know what was rpg game before to play bioware games. The same experience as him.

That was the first I've seen of Barbarossa's post, but it was a) good to see and echoes what some of my friends have said about DA:O. I know of two RPG converts (well, technically Bioware RPG converts) as a result of it.

A friend of mine who just doesn't "do" RPGs loved Origins and as a result got interested in Mass Effect and Jade Empire. He played DA2 for ten minutes on my machine and decided he wanted nothing to do with it. Another friend, who actually introduced me to Bioware back in the KOTOR days, loved the KOTOR series but for some inexplicable reason didn't get DA:O until hearing me rave to the rafters about it, and he's since put in almost as many playthroughs as I have and went out and got Mass Effect, which he's been talking about doing for ages. He also had a 'meh' response to DA2.

Whatever caused it, Origins seemed to really strike a chord with a lot of players - a bit like Morrowind, Thief, Deus Ex, it was a game that was fundamentally great, that captured imagination and just, well, *worked*. Not to say it isn't without fault, but it carved out a space in people's hearts that DA2 just didn't seem to do as well in the round, even if you judge that purely by sales figures.

Clearly, DA2 got other things right and managed to appeal to a number of Origins fans and non-DA fans...whilst at the same time annoying the heck out of a sizeable group of different Origins fans.

If there is a happy balance between the two, that sounds great...I just can't help but feel in my own biased way that the balance is more to the Origins side of the equation than the DA2 end.

[Fiserfully]

I think that the writing smoke-and-mirrors were lacking which makes the desperate difference in DA2. Devs have valid criticisms of DAO's problems like the talking heads (a common complaint about DAO, at least among gamers who *don't* follow the Bioware forums) but pro/cons of talking heads is a red herring when *whatever* it is that was supposed to create that connection in DA2 just didn't work. Hawke's mom and siblings were contrived, a huge flaw in the NPCs designed to invest player interest to main conflict of the plot. With characters like the Cousland folks, Jowan, Gorim, and Shianni, DA:O had SIX unique introductions to the game, each with more character appeal than DA2's first hours.

I'm not saying DA3 needs origin stories... I'm saying it's confusing for fans when DAO's writing consistently accomplishes its goals when DA2 does not.

Modifié par Fiserfully, 10 août 2011 - 04:11 .

[Dragoonlordz]

/rant following be aware to skip if not bored enough to read someones ranting and don't expect much amazing insight or any epiphanys lol

From my standpoint I bought Kotor and it was a great game which inspired me to fork out for Kotor 2 and again (bugs aside) was still great game this left me wanting more in the series which has yet to be done, single player not MMO. I also thought well if Bioware can make this game good I'll try some more and followed it up with BG again loved, got me interested and bought the follow up which still loved and keenly awaited next title in series again which so far hasn't been been developed.

My friend then sent me a copy of ME1, I thought was amazing game and replayed many times like the rest, it peaked my interest in any follow up title and I bought ME2 for me and my friend and while not as good imho as the first one I still enjoyed enough to await number 3 to come out but due to some aspects within it such as tedious planet scanning which more importantly that it replaced exploration, more shooter / less RPG of number 2 plus removal of exploration replaced with ****ty planet scanning made me keep eye on future developments to see if they "streamline" it to death or not. It didn't put my off buying the next one though but had to keep my fingers crossed which still are.

My friend then bought me DAO and I thought was best game yet which immediatly made me hope the next one would be as amazing, so my friend bought me copy and I bought her one (odd way around I know but she wanted SE and I didn't; I had job she didnt so I paid the most for her and she gave me normal copy to make up for it). After playing that I have lost almost all interest in future titles in that series unlike every other franchise Bioware has ever made this one has actually put me off spending my money on the next title. Thats the effect of DA2 so while people can claimed "ooh was best thing since sliced bread, love new direction hope next one stays that way" the knock on effect for most is for first time since buying any Bioware title it has made me lose interest in one of their franchises.

While I see Bioware fall from grace with DA2 I see others rise up Skyrim, DuesEx, Diablo (still keeping by far enough to still be Diablo with the exception of logging in to play which I don't mind) also TW2. All these peaked my interest while Biowares DA series has crumbled imho into a streamlined, flashy over the top instant gratification series. Hope they change direction which I'm sure won't happen but DA2 lost my interest in future DA products, thats the real life cuase/effect of the choices/consequence of games direction changing. When they produce a game which imho is of worse quality and enjoyment than a mediocre or average game like Nier or FF13 (personal opinion, if don't like deal with it and move on) then it's time to look elsewhere. Was first time playing their titles that I stopped playing half way through for ages and just played decade old not great titles that I have completed a million times already because they were more fun to me than DA2.

So I left my feedback and hope things change but I don't think they will not enough to peak my interest since they have already stated keeping heading in same direction as DA2 with the whole "broaden the audience" "appeal to everyone" "attract non RPG players via simplification" etc.

I wanted a truly deep, vast amount of loot and customisation, many locations all looking unique that enabled exploration, a world that seemed alive not lifeless like was, no childish spam attack combat against spam waves plus choices that matter and not truly tacky bottlenecking so obvious that a 3 y/o could tell the difference between making a choice and then being kicked in the nuts after saying no I don't want to carry your amulet/pendant when you are given the option of saying no then sister and his/her mommy saying will do it or no I don't want to enter Kirkwall which gave you the option of saying go somewhere else then again his mommy and sister say they going in, no I don't want to side with one group or the other when there was option to not pick sides and the sentence got repeated followed by your choice removed from dialog and no I wouldn't sit around for decade not interested in mothers relationship enough to ask a single question about mystery person and no I don't want to let sister patrice walk out building when I picked kill/stop her and she still did it.. Amongst a million other things which slap you in the face.

It going to take a drastic change in many areas of gameplay to peak my interest again which let's be honest won't happen due to they want this new audience at it seems to me regardless of cost of the previous one. The one thing I will give Bioware credit they do seem to be listening but I don't see how they will pull off this fix successfully in the end now that they have two types of game one who liked deeper with less hand held titles such as DAO and the new direction of simple enough for little kiddies with no experience of games especially any RPGs who will need their hand held telling them what save game means or what an inventory is.

I do wish them luck with trying to resolve that but the last thing I am going to be doing is holding my breath. They have created a chasm between two titles within the same franchise with different directions and idiologies and I don't see them finding a perfect solution instead just a mix match which will due to being mash up of two different types of game approaches will be a diluted mess of random directions. This in itself will make the final product stopped from ever being a masterpeice or amazing. I think next title will be average as they try to appeal to audiences of DAO plus DA2 and still a third one, the 'need hands held' generation of new players. So expect more simplification, more streamlining and less features imho.

^ The result of lack of quality in a rushed DA2 and change in direction and idiologies from DAO to DA2 (Can quote Brent's words on direction he wanted to go, which differes from Mikes if think the idiology is same which in reality wasn't and isn't).

/end rant *grumble grumble*

Saying that I still have a lot of respect for Bioware and staff especially ability to listen to people even if don't make changes based on what people ask for, and nothing against Mike he just has different opinion than me thats all which is quite fair and no reason why shouldn't have different opinions. I just don't like the direction and it lost my interest purely as a result of product they released following up from one loved (wasn't just because wanted DAO2 which people might claim, I also played it pretending wasn't a follow up to DAO and still had so many flaws and things did not like as a standalone game that still didn't like it). DAO wasn't perfect but when put it all together created a masterpeice imho, DA2 was full of bad aspects and when put together it was only at most average to me personally. They are trying to put things right with Legacy and from what I understand was a step in right direction and proved listened to people but due to admitting they sticking with streamlining (some people don't like the word but it merely means simplification or removal of things people claim is useless regardless of in fact if is used and liked) I don't think the end result will be the right balance. Time will tell.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 10 août 2011 - 04:59 .

[The dead fish]

Well, thank you Dragoonlordz. It was beautiful. I shed a tear while reading, the hand on the heart.

For me, my main concerns are clearly the story, customization, choice, art design , interactions with our companions ( romance, discuss, etc ).

These are the five areas that concern me really. If the effort is focused here, I think I will be satisfied, whatever the change. It's not too much to ask, I hope.

I do not hate DA2. It has qualities, but the problem is that the major faults, I see them in the main areas that make me love this franchise. So, that's not possible to be indulgent. That is too much too ask, I can't today. And that's why the first time in the beginning, I said that at first I was quite happy until I explore the game and I was disappointed more and more gradually as I went along.

To be honest, all the problems that this game would have met wouldn't have really minded me if these areas could have been remained intact in my eyes.

(some fight animations, waves, reused maps, bugs, etc etc)

In the words of Barbarossa, I felt that the franchise had been stripped, denuned from one episode to another.

And this with most other defects announced made ​​all even worse.

So personally, I do not think I could have such a bad impression again. I still keep hope that DA3 can be better than an average game. We'll see in a few years.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 10 août 2011 - 05:29 .

[b1322]

To me with DA2 the major issue was the lack of conversations with the companions, if DA3 fixes that then I will most likely buy it but if its going to be limited again then no matter how great the rest will be wont really matter to me.

Modifié par b1322, 10 août 2011 - 05:35 .

[Dragoonlordz]

I wonder if would be good to just create a thread with list version little to no need for explantion of things say top 3 or top 5 people want Bioware to work on for next title would be of any use. We have many feedback threads with long answers going into vast detail, I know I have done the same in my signature review. Maybe a short version would make life easier for them. Simplification I get the irony.


Example ~ Top 3 things I would like them to work on most for next title:

Large amount of areas for exploration within as close as possible a 'living world'

Large amounts of loot / customisation not just runes and trinkets or main character only, including race choices at start.

Choice/consequence, cause/effect that matters, with a huge improvement needed in branching.


Those are my top 3, I wonder what others (top 3 alone) would pick. Obviously for more detail and deeper insight I did write long winded review which they know about and made sure they did as John is very much aware I am sure given how much I nagged him about it.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 10 août 2011 - 06:09 .

[b1322]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

I wonder if would be good to just create a thread with list version little to no need for explantion of things say top 3 or top 5 people want Bioware to work on for next title would be of any use. We have many feedback threads with long answers going into vast detail, I know I have done the same in my signature review. Maybe a short version would make life easier for them. Simplification I get the irony.


Example ~ Top 3 things I would like them to work on most for next title:

Large amount of areas for exploration within as close as possible a 'living world'

Large amounts of loot / customisation not just runes and trinkets or main character only, including race choices at start.

Choice/consequence, cause/effect that matters, with a huge improvement needed in branching.


Those are my top 3, I wonder what others (top 3 alone) would pick. Obviously for more detail and deeper insight I did write long winded review which they know about and made sure they did as John is very much aware I am sure given how much I nagged him about it.

Actually thats a great idea, if such a thread is created I will be there

[Dormiglione]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

/rant following be aware to skip if not bored enough to read someones ranting and don't expect much amazing insight or any epiphanys lol

.....

Amazing post as ever.  ( Me applaud )

[b1322]

Dormiglione wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

/rant following be aware to skip if not bored enough to read someones ranting and don't expect much amazing insight or any epiphanys lol

.....

Amazing post as ever.  ( Me applaud )

I agree, well said!

[Dragoonlordz]

b1322 wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

I wonder if would be good to just create a thread with list version little to no need for explantion of things say top 3 or top 5 people want Bioware to work on for next title would be of any use. We have many feedback threads with long answers going into vast detail, I know I have done the same in my signature review. Maybe a short version would make life easier for them. Simplification I get the irony.


Example ~ Top 3 things I would like them to work on most for next title:

Large amount of areas for exploration within as close as possible a 'living world'

Large amounts of loot / customisation not just runes and trinkets or main character only, including race choices at start.

Choice/consequence, cause/effect that matters, with a huge improvement needed in branching.


Those are my top 3, I wonder what others (top 3 alone) would pick. Obviously for more detail and deeper insight I did write long winded review which they know about and made sure they did as John is very much aware I am sure given how much I nagged him about it.

Actually thats a great idea, if such a thread is created I will be there

Ok done.

http://social.biowar...5/index/8080144