1502 réponses à ce sujet

[Redcoat]

taine wrote...

jds1bio wrote...

Even though for us this work is worth it (and I know this doesn't sit well with some longtime RPG fans), at least DA2 tried to lower the barrier by allowing someone to get into the action right away.  But I'm not really sure how much more you can lower it beyond what was already done in Mass Effect 2.  Lowering the barrier that far doesn't seem to conform to being part of the line of the spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate.

Yes, and yet in spite of this 'barrier lowering', more people played DA:O than played DA2. 

All this talk of accessibility is frankly badly underestimating the audience for DA games and RPGs in general. I'm not talking about 'PC-elitist' gamers, just the type of people who will be willing to give this sort of game a try. Like it or not, you are not going to convert the majority of the 25 million COD players. They just have no interest at all in playing anything else (except maybe Madden). Many of those people however are willing to try something different, and it *should* be something different, not an attempt to make a cRPG more 'actiony' to purposefully appeal to the demographic. If a shooter fan wants to play an action game, they will play an action game. If they want to try out an RPG, you should give them an RPG. As many people on this thread have already stated, a good in-game tutorial and a very interesting opening sequence (which DA2 frankly did not have, while Origins did in spades) lowers accessibility far more than stripping out options and complexity. 

If you want to make an action game, that's great. I liked Jade Empire a lot and I'd love to get my hands on a sequel. I'm sure Bioware would do a good job. DA, however, is an RPG franchise, billed as a successor to BG. I know marketing folks and EA demagogues want to go after the much larger FPS audience, but sometimes it's better to just be happy with what you are. 

I will maintain that RPGs aren't all that terribly complex, really. Take Baldur's Gate, for example. You have stats based on PnP principles, like THAC0, Armour class, and Saving Throws, and while this might seem intimidating at first, what does those things represent, in essnece? THAC0 is your chance to hit, Armour class is your chance to avoid being hit, and saving throws are your chance to resist certain effects. A proper attempt at "streamlining" or "making the system more accessible" would be to present these concepts in way that's intuitive and easy to understand.

If you want complex, read Falcon 4.0's manual in all it's 570 pages. THAT is complexity, THAT is a barrier to entry. Which is why detailed flight sims are a tiny niche market. RPGs are not a tiny niche market.

[Tommy6860]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

Ryenke wrote...

1.  The use of generic icons for loot items made me feel like I was playing an unfinished beta product.  This feeling was compounded by the generic names for things like rings - there was no way to distinguish one ring from another visually, or by name.  A little thing, yes.  But that impression lasted the whole game on most every piece of loot and colored my experience and was part of what made me feel bored doing the typical RPG things in inventory.  Please don't strip inventory down more - that would be the opposite of what I'm saying.  But the DA2 inventory and loot experience was excessively dull (especially on a console, where I could not even examine a piece of loot when picking it up.)

Yup. Agreed. Loot needs some loving overall. I'm leaning towards "less, but more special" but we'll see what develops.

2.  "Choices that matter" - I don't think every choice has to change the world - but one of the great gems in DAO are the small pathing choices.  For instance the fight with Ser Cauthrien when you free Anora. First I could choose here from 2 paths:  to fight Cauthrien, or to surrender.  If I surrendered, I found myself in prison where I could choose from more paths:  wait to be rescued, sneak my way out, or fight my way out.  Same result to the world - but vastly different experiences for my character(s).  As Hawke I felt I had virtually no choices, even saying NO more often than not didn't change what my Hawke would have to do.  Small choices/branches can greatly enhance the gameplaying experience, yet don't have to cause the headaches of world changing/plot flag/carry over to next game type of choices.  I'd love to see these small pathing choices brought back (maybe the way you can reuse assets gracefully? (grin))

This exact scenario is in Legacy, where you are given different content based on a choice. Some have claimed it's "meaningless," but I'm very glad to see someone's looking for that kind of thing. I suspect that people disliking the choice in Legacy are concerned that small-content choices might be all we ever do, ever again, which would be a concern if that were true, but it's not, so it's not.

I have to disagree with this a bit. The choices made had very little impact. I loved the removal of the enemy waves/parachute drops and repetitive envrioments, but not much else changed, even if those that saw something from what was in DA2. This claim of recognition may have been just purely from a DA2 perspective, and not an Origin or overall (how a) typical RPG plays out in branching the storyline choices. I had no chocie with the factions that I encountered, I couldn't change views. When I did meet with the two where I did have a chocie, the only truely revealing difference was that I got a different puzzle to play (I liked the puzzles by thwe way). In the end, the real differnce I saw was what side I chose lived or died with one side having a self-realization to their moral dileema of why they did what they did. I was hoping the chocies made an impact how the ending boss would play out, but it was the same as if I had played Act III with the Meredith/Orsino choice, it just didn't matter.

If the DLC doesn't tie into DA III somehow, then I guess that's OK, but if it does, it feels like Witch Hunt.

Only from an aesthetic and somewhat combat perspective in gameplay, did Legacy feel good for me.

[Anomaly-]

Barbarossa2010 wrote...
Mike, I believe myself to be the prototypical example of the 'accessibility' crowd you are attempting to court...

That was a very interesting read. Hopefully they take a look at that. I had a similar experience with DA2, getting a few people I know who don't normally play fantasy RPGs to try it. They thought it was ok while a few things annoyed them, but after I got them to try Origins they all agreed it was vastly superior. These are casual gamers, but they still appreciated the larger variety and attention to detail that everything in Origins had, from environments and gameplay mechanics, to story and romances.

[fchopin]

The only thing i want to say is that re-used areas and waves played no part in my liking or disliking DA2.

As for Legacy it does not matter to me if it's good or bad, i have no interest in DLC's unless i like the game.

[ScotGaymer]

Aside from the obvious lack of development time and problems arising from that the only real criticism I have of Dragon Age 2 for myself is the ending. By the ending I mean how the ending reduces what is an enjoyable and fun gaming experience to something completely empty and pointless.

It was like the game had slapped me in the face and said "haw haw! your choices were meaningless!" like Nelson from the Simpsons.

It sucked all prior enjoyment I had had out of the game completely when I realised that NOTHING my Hawke had done had had any affect whatsoever on the game or what occurred. Now I understood fully that choices dont always matter and things dont always turn out how we expect; frankly I am a fan of that happening. I like the unexpected but I didnt like it that the ending pretty much rendered everything we did pointless.

Pointless.

[Kothoses Rothenkisal]

Not to totally derail you guys but back on topic, for those of you that played Legacy are you happy your concerns were taken into account (Im not asking for a list of what was right or wrong with DA 2, there is a 100+ page thread at the top for that).

What I want to get to the root of is this.

There was an obvious disconnect between what the Dragon Age community were looking for in DA 2 and where Bioware thought the series should go, now that it has been acknowledged, do you feel the new DLC goes part the way back towards what we wanted, or is it just polishing something unmentionable.

Rather than what you dont want to see, what single feature not present in DA 2 (And possibly not even present in origins either) would you like to see in DA 3?

Also do you feel that the obvioust disconnect between community and Bioware at the launch of DA 2 has been repaired and I do not want this to be viewed just as biowares fault, a lot of that was caused the the somewhat vitriolic nature of some of the original feedback.  Have the recent announcements and even Legacy gone some of the way to restoring your faith, do you feel that the recent spate of Bioware postings and such have helped you recconect with a gaming company that was once famous for how well it interacted with its community?

Modifié par Kothoses Rothenkisal, 05 août 2011 - 02:24 .

[ScotGaymer]

Never bought legacy because I didnt feel that the DLC did address my concerns with DA2.

I mean as someone else said all it really addresses is the recycled areas, and the ninja heavy armoured waves. And pretty much nothing else.

Ive seen this echoed by folks who have played it.

Not that it is fair to expect anything more than what id delivered of course. It IS only a small scale DLC after all.
And it terms of that it seems fairly well delivered if massively overpriced.

Modifié par FitScotGaymer, 05 août 2011 - 02:24 .

[HTTP 404]

^I would say it isn't a waste of time for you to try the DLC. but 10 bucks may be steep if you are not too interested in it. unless you got money to throw around. I thought the DLC is much better than DA2. ironically, I think the scores reviewers gave the DLC should be the score they gave DA2 and the scores they gave the DA2 should have gone to the DLC. I think it was a make up call for mis-scoring the game originally.

[Serpieri Nei]

FitScotGaymer wrote...

Never bought legacy because I didnt feel that the DLC did address my concerns with DA2.

I mean as someone else said all it really addresses is the recycled areas, and the ninja heavy armoured waves. And pretty much nothing else.

Ive seen this echoed by folks who have played it.

Not that it is fair to expect anything more than what id delivered of course. It IS only a small scale DLC after all.
And it terms of that it seems fairly well delivered if massively overpriced.

My sentiments as well.

[Redcoat]

Kothoses Rothenkisal wrote...

Not to totally derail you guys but back on topic, for those of you that played Legacy are you happy your concerns were taken into account (Im not asking for a list of what was right or wrong with DA 2, there is a 100+ page thread at the top for that).

What I want to get to the root of is this.

There was an obvious disconnect between what the Dragon Age community were looking for in DA 2 and where Bioware thought the series should go, now that it has been acknowledged, do you feel the new DLC goes part the way back towards what we wanted, or is it just polishing something unmentionable.

Rather than what you dont want to see, what single feature not present in DA 2 (And possibly not even present in origins either) would you like to see in DA 3?

Also do you feel that the obvioust disconnect between community and Bioware at the launch of DA 2 has been repaired and I do not want this to be viewed just as biowares fault, a lot of that was caused the the somewhat vitriolic nature of some of the original feedback.  Have the recent announcements and even Legacy gone some of the way to restoring your faith, do you feel that the recent spate of Bioware postings and such have helped you recconect with a gaming company that was once famous for how well it interacted with its community?

Well, the "disconnect" you mentioned only encompasses this forum, and I dare say that BSN does not represent the opinions of the fanbase as a whole. People who are dissatisfied with a product are much more likely to speak out and complain than those who are not. Then there are those who have become apathetic to Dragon Age after DA2, and simply don't care one whit about it anymore. They won't be posting here, either.

As for Legacy, I have not played it so I cannot give an honest opinion on it, naturally. From what I've heard, though, it appears to be a step in the right direction, although a DLC can only do so much.

The recent postings from Mike Laidlaw and others do give me a bit more confidence, sure. My general expectation with major game developers is that the only time they ever interact with the fanbase is through the gaming media. The only time I've ever had the opportunity to respond directly to a developer on a message board is with jet fighter sims, which are made by small, independent studios. So BioWare definitely deserves credit for interacting with fans here on BSN; the very worst thing they could do is adopt a "closed shop" mentality of, "We're going to do whatever the hell we want, and if you want to bask in the genius of our creative vision, fine, if not, then don't let the door hit you on the way out."

[Kothoses Rothenkisal]

Redcoat wrote...

Kothoses Rothenkisal wrote...

Not to totally derail you guys but back on topic, for those of you that played Legacy are you happy your concerns were taken into account (Im not asking for a list of what was right or wrong with DA 2, there is a 100+ page thread at the top for that).

What I want to get to the root of is this.

There was an obvious disconnect between what the Dragon Age community were looking for in DA 2 and where Bioware thought the series should go, now that it has been acknowledged, do you feel the new DLC goes part the way back towards what we wanted, or is it just polishing something unmentionable.

Rather than what you dont want to see, what single feature not present in DA 2 (And possibly not even present in origins either) would you like to see in DA 3?

Also do you feel that the obvioust disconnect between community and Bioware at the launch of DA 2 has been repaired and I do not want this to be viewed just as biowares fault, a lot of that was caused the the somewhat vitriolic nature of some of the original feedback.  Have the recent announcements and even Legacy gone some of the way to restoring your faith, do you feel that the recent spate of Bioware postings and such have helped you recconect with a gaming company that was once famous for how well it interacted with its community?

Well, the "disconnect" you mentioned only encompasses this forum, and I dare say that BSN does not represent the opinions of the fanbase as a whole. People who are dissatisfied with a product are much more likely to speak out and complain than those who are not. Then there are those who have become apathetic to Dragon Age after DA2, and simply don't care one whit about it anymore. They won't be posting here, either.

As for Legacy, I have not played it so I cannot give an honest opinion on it, naturally. From what I've heard, though, it appears to be a step in the right direction, although a DLC can only do so much.

The recent postings from Mike Laidlaw and others do give me a bit more confidence, sure. My general expectation with major game developers is that the only time they ever interact with the fanbase is through the gaming media. The only time I've ever had the opportunity to respond directly to a developer on a message board is with jet fighter sims, which are made by small, independent studios. So BioWare definitely deserves credit for interacting with fans here on BSN; the very worst thing they could do is adopt a "closed shop" mentality of, "We're going to do whatever the hell we want, and if you want to bask in the genius of our creative vision, fine, if not, then don't let the door hit you on the way out."

The Apathy you speak of is part of the disconnect I was refering to.  But I do agree with you, Bioware have a history of good interactions with the community, ask anyone who played NWN online (If your not one of us  )

I am left wondering though where exactly things changed was it the mainstreaming of gaming, is the audience just too large to have that same interaction with now? is it a fear of being misquoted months down the line or just corpoerate PR for the most part?

[FieryDove]

Please for the love of cheese…or apples or whatever.
If we ever have an exaggerated/demo/tutorial whatever you call it portion to play in another game make a (Bad word coming) toggle so we can turn if off and go straight to the CC after we do it once.

Please give tac cam back or aoe type cam. My mages and archers will go on strike otherwise.

Secondary weapon slots please. So I don’t do silly things late at night like sell my second dagger which disappears forever once you leave store window. I like to weapon swap, not just types (bow/dagger) but I think all classes might use it. Cold staff in one slot, fire in another and so forth.

No more melee FF please or an option to adjust FF to each person’s liking. Melee ff killed NM play for me. (Yeah more toggles ftw!)

More customization of PC and NPC companions. Would love to see many old specializations return in addition to new ones. classes are becoming stale and flat. I know shapeshifting cannot due to memory constraints and that makes me sad but the rest? AW, Battlemage, Ranger, Bard, Spirit warrior? Plug- DW and Bow warriors. Pretty please?

More open misc. dialogs with companions, back story, cookies, shoes just Moar! Please with brownies?

More crafting variety would be welcome. I liked the rune buying in DA2 vs. Awakening’s make 50,000 to craft the highest level rune. But more variety is welcome.

Non combat skills making a glorious return would be most welcome.

Darkspawn – Old look was better. (imho)

Elves – Oh my. If we are never going to play one again I guess it’s not a big deal but still. There are enough threads/opinions on that already.

Qunari - Fine, except give them back bronze skin and purple/red/yellow eyes please? Add a few non-horned ones so we don’t go crazy thinking it was all our imagination.

CC with arrows/sliders back like dao please.

Toggle for dialogue to see what the PC is going to say before selecting it.

Loot – See chest – Get excited – Open chest – Get rusty spoon x3 or more pouch of pebbles. I don’t think I’m the only one not excited by this.

Oh and the required plug:
Gorilla companion for DA3!

Legacy was fun, but would like to finish it with all my characters - waiting for banter bugs to be fixed. TY

[jds1bio]

Kothoses Rothenkisal wrote...

There was an obvious disconnect between what the Dragon Age community were looking for in DA 2 and where Bioware thought the series should go, now that it has been acknowledged, do you feel the new DLC goes part the way back towards what we wanted, or is it just polishing something unmentionable.

Rather than what you dont want to see, what single feature not present in DA 2 (And possibly not even present in origins either) would you like to see in DA 3?

Also do you feel that the obvioust disconnect between community and Bioware at the launch of DA 2 has been repaired and I do not want this to be viewed just as biowares fault, a lot of that was caused the the somewhat vitriolic nature of some of the original feedback.  Have the recent announcements and even Legacy gone some of the way to restoring your faith, do you feel that the recent spate of Bioware postings and such have helped you recconect with a gaming company that was once famous for how well it interacted with its community?

Echoing others, this particular forum community is only a section of the entire population playing DA2.  What "we" wanted can mean many different things with different priorities.  But to generally answer your first question, Legacy is unmistakably DA2.  Still, Legacy demonstrates that forum feedback can and does influence the contents of games created.

Not present in DA2 - problem-solving via discovery.  If I need to complete a quest, I pretty much know exactly where to go thanks to the map.  If I need to talk to someone, I'm alerted via homebase mail or the quest log.  If my words or actions, or a companion's words or actions might end a conflict, I know exactly what options will work because all of them are presented in front of me.  I know this is partly an accessibility issue, but this exists in Origins and Mass Effect also anytime a charm/persuade or intimidate option appears.  When these options appear, the inner voice says "Oh look, I can get tough here" instead of saying "Hmmm...I wonder if I can get tough here".  The discovery that does remain is one of what the cinematic will show, except the difference is that you KNOW a cinematic is coming for that option.  I don't know if I'm explaining this well enough.

The last question - we won't know the final answer until we see how many DA3 preorders and first-week sales there are.  For me, I never lost any faith or felt any betrayal or pain or hurt feelings.  It's only a game and if I didn't like my digital purchase I would have buyer's remorse but that would have been about it.  The BioWare postings and forums are a positive part of the overall experience of their products, and are rewarding to those who seek them out and contribute.   And though the companies they work for tend to get characterized as mysterious demonic overlords or moneysucking institutions, the dev postings remind us that games are still created by people.

[Mike Laidlaw]

Kothoses Rothenkisal wrote...

There was an obvious disconnect between what the Dragon Age community were looking for in DA 2 and where Bioware thought the series should go, now that it has been acknowledged, do you feel the new DLC goes part the way back towards what we wanted, or is it just polishing something unmentionable.

There's also a very large disconnect between where the Dragon Age community thinks we are headed and where we are actually going. As I've noted before, there's two data points in terms of major releases, and I think people have been rather hasty in drawing a line from DAO to DA2 to Devil May Cry. There's a LOT of territory between DA2 and DMC, and if we were truly headed in that direction, we would have made much larger changes. Cut party, remove crafting, one class, etc would all be changes that show a move to action game, but none of those happened. A lot of doom was perceived in the wave combat and changing follower equipment, exaggerated by other faults with the game.

In part, I believe that's a communication error on our part. I know we were not universally reassuring about the direction of DA during the DAII marketing campaign or even here on these forums. There were a number of reasons for that, many of which are not fit for public consumption, but rest assured that we'll take steps to rectify that over the next little while.

And wahey! I kept it on topic this time. Woo.

[Bryy_Miller]

Marketing was a huge stickler for me. I felt that, while you guys used GREAT phrases like "... and something AWESOME happens", you didn't really explain what you meant beyond a buzzphrase.

[Kothoses Rothenkisal]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

Kothoses Rothenkisal wrote...

There was an obvious disconnect between what the Dragon Age community were looking for in DA 2 and where Bioware thought the series should go, now that it has been acknowledged, do you feel the new DLC goes part the way back towards what we wanted, or is it just polishing something unmentionable.

There's also a very large disconnect between where the Dragon Age community thinks we are headed and where we are actually going. As I've noted before, there's two data points in terms of major releases, and I think people have been rather hasty in drawing a line from DAO to DA2 to Devil May Cry. There's a LOT of territory between DA2 and DMC, and if we were truly headed in that direction, we would have made much larger changes. Cut party, remove crafting, one class, etc would all be changes that show a move to action game, but none of those happened. A lot of doom was perceived in the wave combat and changing follower equipment, exaggerated by other faults with the game.

In part, I believe that's a communication error on our part. I know we were not universally reassuring about the direction of DA during the DAII marketing campaign or even here on these forums. There were a number of reasons for that, many of which are not fit for public consumption, but rest assured that we'll take steps to rectify that over the next little while.

And wahey! I kept it on topic this time. Woo.

Haha congrats for that!

You are right there are quite a lot of disconnects and I dont think the entire blame for them lays with Bioware or with the community as a whole but more just the way information online works, with so many sites reporting from so few sources, chinese whispers often set in, whiches does not help the two way dialoguse at all.

One of the big strengths of having a community like this one, with vocal developers is that when people are prepaerd to talk calmly misconceptions can be easy to clear up.   Rather than nebulous statements being made in the context of an interview being applied to every situation you can actually address singular issues and get them out to the most vocal of your fanbase.

I do like the fact that you are candid that some of the reasons are simply not fit to go out for discussion, dirty laundry happens everywhere and its good that while keeping it quite you atleast acknowledge it, it humanises Bioware, which has always been a strong point of yours, the appearance of a human entity.

The other part of any disconnect is that places like this site bring together a broad spectrum of people, and when any of them speak of "their opinion" its often presented or read as if ites presented as a fact.  So people project their expectations onto statements they have read, spin them around and then come up with an answer.

I hope more people read your posts here though, as they do so much to give clarity to a few burning issues AND also to reassure us that the Bioware community we fell in love with during NWN/JE/DA is still there still alive and well and still talking and listening.

As a question to throw out there, you came in for a lot of critique on these forums, often personal (which is something I disagree with) and you stated that just after DA 2s launch these forums were a bit of a mess.  Given the importance placed on community / developer relations (or atleast seeming importance) what do you take away from that as the biggest leasson not in terms of game design or mechanics or even in game features but purely and solely in your interactions with the community.  Is there a single point you will take aware as something to do or avoid when the next launch comes out?

[Mike Laidlaw]

Kothoses Rothenkisal wrote...
  Is there a single point you will take aware as something to do or avoid when the next launch comes out?

No, not really. It's nigh-impossible to predict the circumstances of each launch. I could say "be more careful in my postmortem interviews" but that's a lie. Nothing I said was meant in a tone of arrogance, but it was certainly construed that way. I could say "Be here on the forums and take my lumps," but, that would probably also be a lie. At the end of a project, most devs are more than a bit hollowed out and in serious need of some recouperation. And even the best-received games have people on forums that despise them. Human nature dictates that we can skim 17 pages of YAY and linger on the BOO as if it were a bell tolling our doom.

Ultimately, it's not about the launch. It's about preparing the community for the launch, so they know what they're getting. DA II shocked some people, and shocked people tend to have strongly emotional reactions. I'd rather the shock be minimal, if only because I want people to make an informed choice in the games they purchase.

[Kothoses Rothenkisal]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

Kothoses Rothenkisal wrote...
  Is there a single point you will take aware as something to do or avoid when the next launch comes out?

No, not really. It's nigh-impossible to predict the circumstances of each launch. I could say "be more careful in my postmortem interviews" but that's a lie. Nothing I said was meant in a tone of arrogance, but it was certainly construed that way. I could say "Be here on the forums and take my lumps," but, that would probably also be a lie. At the end of a project, most devs are more than a bit hollowed out and in serious need of some recouperation. And even the best-received games have people on forums that despise them. Human nature dictates that we can skim 17 pages of YAY and linger on the BOO as if it were a bell tolling our doom.

Ultimately, it's not about the launch. It's about preparing the community for the launch, so they know what they're getting. DA II shocked some people, and shocked people tend to have strongly emotional reactions. I'd rather the shock be minimal, if only because I want people to make an informed choice in the games they purchase.

Especially shocked people on the internet and no one wants to take lumps they are never fun, been there back with an old NWN Site I used to run and that was tiny in comparison the scale and scope you have to deal with.

Totally hear you about the boo's but thats why its important to celebrate success of any kind, even if that involves just a quiet beer.  

Gamers are funny creatures though and it always strikes me as fascinating how within a game or genres community certain people can become minor celebraties, gamers too can and do achieve this, people like Swifty and Athene bring a lot of people in to basically hear them and watch them play.   I cant help but be fascinated by how this comes about, because even in the other two entertainment industries (music and flm/tv) the celebreties tend to be the public facing people, but in the gaming world its possible for a person to be idolised or demonised by a fan base but not even recognised on the street.

I guess when your primary communication is via online outlets the human element gets removed, or distanced somewhat for some people hence the firery nature of some feedback, I think that is why its important that community and coroporate are more closely connected and its funny that the only other places you can really do this outside of BW is on indy dev forums.


Anyway rambling now but getting some ideas here for future things I want to look into so thank you.

Modifié par Kothoses Rothenkisal, 05 août 2011 - 06:15 .

[Redcoat]

You raise an interesting point - if one thinks of game developers as entertainers, then they never get to see their audience face-to-face. A band playing live has their audience right in front of them, a playwright can see his work performed in front of a live audience, and even a film director can see people filing into the theatres. But there's never a moment where the developers are on stage looking out at their customers. They might read reviews from critics or see postings on a message board, but that's it, really. I think that therein lies the danger of the "disconnect" you mentioned earlier.

[Kothoses Rothenkisal]

Redcoat wrote...

You raise an interesting point - if one thinks of game developers as entertainers, then they never get to see their audience face-to-face. A band playing live has their audience right in front of them, a playwright can see his work performed in front of a live audience, and even a film director can see people filing into the theatres. But there's never a moment where the developers are on stage looking out at their customers. They might read reviews from critics or see postings on a message board, but that's it, really. I think that therein lies the danger of the "disconnect" you mentioned earlier.

Indeed and the comparison between the industries runs quite deep too really when you explore it far enough, most entertainers divide opinion, no one has ever been considered perfect by everyone, they have vocal detractors and loyal fanbases too.   I do think that in the internet eyes of gamers some developers can and do get the same level of adulation and vilification, and often its intensified both by the medium its delivered over and by the fact that games are produced by large groups which often dont have a public face.

Music is often produced by large groups but atleast there is a public face to humanise and present it, its always difficult to present that element when all you have is the online medium which most game developers are restricted to.

[jds1bio]

Kothoses Rothenkisal wrote...

Redcoat wrote...

You
raise an interesting point - if one thinks of game developers as entertainers, then they never get to see their audience face-to-face. A band playing live has their audience right in front of them, a playwright can see his work performed in front of a live audience, and even a film director can see people filing into the theatres. But
there's never a moment where the developers are on stage looking out at their customers. They might read reviews from critics or see postings on a message board, but that's it, really. I think that therein lies the
danger of the "disconnect" you mentioned earlier.

Indeed
and the comparison between the industries runs quite deep too really when you explore it far enough, most entertainers divide opinion, no one has ever been considered perfect by everyone, they have vocal
detractors and loyal fanbases too.   I do think that in the internet eyes of gamers some developers can and do get the same level of adulation and vilification, and often its intensified both by the medium
its delivered over and by the fact that games are produced by large groups which often dont have a public face.

Music is often produced by large groups but atleast there is a public face to humanise and present it, its always difficult to present that element when all you have is the online medium which most game developers are restricted to.

Another aspect to the analogy is that the entertainers, in addition to craft and creation, are typically putting
on a performance.  If you don't like a performance given by your favorite musician, or you don't like their new songs or something, you might say "I don't get where they're going" or "I like the older stuff better" or just plain "I was disappointed".  But do you say you feel betrayed and have lost faith in them, or do you accept that they are people who perhaps at this point in time have just gone in a different direction than you might expect? 

And why is this easier to do with music than it is with video games?  After all, you can just as easily go and play the last game you liked as you can listen to the older music you prefer.  Maybe because with games we know that we have to be part of the performance.

What is special about game development producing entertainment, aside from having the performance constructed, recorded, and tuned ahead of time before public consumption, is that the game-developers-as-entertainers' performance is incomplete without the player.  Always.  That is perhaps a reason for the many passionate reactions given by players when evaluating games, there are certain performances they just don't want to be a part of.

Modifié par jds1bio, 05 août 2011 - 07:16 .

[Firky]

^ That's really thought provoking.

[Kothoses Rothenkisal]

jds1bio wrote...

Kothoses Rothenkisal wrote...

Redcoat wrote...

You
raise an interesting point - if one thinks of game developers as entertainers, then they never get to see their audience face-to-face. A band playing live has their audience right in front of them, a playwright can see his work performed in front of a live audience, and even a film director can see people filing into the theatres. But
there's never a moment where the developers are on stage looking out at their customers. They might read reviews from critics or see postings on a message board, but that's it, really. I think that therein lies the
danger of the "disconnect" you mentioned earlier.

Indeed
and the comparison between the industries runs quite deep too really when you explore it far enough, most entertainers divide opinion, no one has ever been considered perfect by everyone, they have vocal
detractors and loyal fanbases too.   I do think that in the internet eyes of gamers some developers can and do get the same level of adulation and vilification, and often its intensified both by the medium
its delivered over and by the fact that games are produced by large groups which often dont have a public face.

Music is often produced by large groups but atleast there is a public face to humanise and present it, its always difficult to present that element when all you have is the online medium which most game developers are restricted to.

Another aspect to the analogy is that the entertainers, in addition to craft and creation, are typically putting
on a performance.  If you don't like a performance given by your favorite musician, or you don't like their new songs or something, you might say "I don't get where they're going" or "I like the older stuff better" or just plain "I was disappointed".  But do you say you feel betrayed and have lost faith in them, or do you accept that they are people who perhaps at this point in time have just gone in a different direction than you might expect? 

And why is this easier to do with music than it is with video games?  After all, you can just as easily go and play the last game you liked as you can listen to the older music you prefer.  Maybe because with games we know that we have to be part of the performance.

What is special about game development producing entertainment, aside from having the performance constructed, recorded, and tuned ahead of time before public consumption, is that the game-developers-as-entertainers' performance is incomplete without the player.  Always.  That is perhaps a reason for the many passionate reactions given by players when evaluating games, there are certain performances they just don't want to be a part of.

Excellent points well delivered and  very true, its kind of like that moment where some one goes "sing along if you know the words" and half the audience sings their lungs out and the other half walk away embarassed.  I think part of it is good games encourage emotional investment Role Play Games especially bring this out in people.  The character in that RPG is generally OUR Character, we makes its choices guide it through its fantastic experiences choose its dialogues and how it acts, relates to the world and ultimately what its fate is.  Which probably also explains why gamers often go to extremes of opinions when it comes to defending or attacking the games they play.

[Bryy_Miller]

My friend has a saying. Acting is just like any other business. And Brad Pitt is the best Plumber in the world.

[philippe willaume]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

Kothoses Rothenkisal wrote...

There was an obvious disconnect between what the Dragon Age community were looking for in DA 2 and where Bioware thought the series should go, now that it has been acknowledged, do you feel the new DLC goes part the way back towards what we wanted, or is it just polishing something unmentionable.

There's also a very large disconnect between where the Dragon Age community thinks we are headed and where we are actually going. As I've noted before, there's two data points in terms of major releases, and I think people have been rather hasty in drawing a line from DAO to DA2 to Devil May Cry. There's a LOT of territory between DA2 and DMC, and if we were truly headed in that direction, we would have made much larger changes. Cut party, remove crafting, one class, etc would all be changes that show a move to action game, but none of those happened. A lot of doom was perceived in the wave combat and changing follower equipment, exaggerated by other faults with the game.

In part, I believe that's a communication error on our part. I know we were not universally reassuring about the direction of DA during the DAII marketing campaign or even here on these forums. There were a number of reasons for that, many of which are not fit for public consumption, but rest assured that we'll take steps to rectify that over the next little while.

And wahey! I kept it on topic this time. Woo.

Hello Mike

I think as well that the feel of the game had an important part in the shock you mentioned.

DA:O and DA:A put the bar rather High and even if There are lots of things in DA2 that are really really good conceptually. Actions speak louder than words (that management course was not waisted on me).
The end result seems somewhat less flexible than the original, In the emotional context you are describing it is quite easy to add to two to two and come up with 25.
 
What makes it even more painful to me is that lots of the change at a conceptual level are an improvement on DA:0
The waves are not bad as such, but because of where the successive waves appears, they take away a large part of the tactical aspect of the game.

Because the waves are by far the most common from of encounters, when you put that in perspective with the vast majority of the bosses being having hit points in the 10^9 region, characers and companion not being as flexible both tn tactical option and gear.
It is not unreasonable to see that as, as a drive to no more tactics, don’t try to be clever, just max out runes,must have gear all that factored by optimal build for  a hack and slash in the tradition of Barbarian II or Severance.

 Personally I think this is more unintended consequences of the design choices. A bit like if, in CS department, you are monitoring the frequency of update of the customer tickets in a drive to improve customer satisfaction.  Unless you are monitoring quality of update you will end with a smashing update figures and lot of update being “.”

that being said waves and paratroper ninja,  used with parcimony will create a nice tactical challenge.



 
Phil

Modifié par philippe willaume, 05 août 2011 - 08:21 .