3618 réponses à ce sujet

[Kaiser Shepard]

As per Javier's instructions, here is new topic to discuss the Collector Base decision and other moral aspects of the Mass Effect universe. The title is a nod to a post Arcian made in the old topic, in which he said it would blend well with the Renegade content of the topic. In a twist of irony, I've decided to name the new topic just that, since I feel that one's own views ultimately decide which side is the delusional one.

Please keep the insults to a minimum this time, guys, or Jav will have to swoop in on us again. And swooping... well, swooping is bad.

The previous topic can be found here.

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 25 septembre 2011 - 04:15 .

[Volus Warlord]

HomelessGal wrote...

I approve of the title.

I think keeping the base is more interesting in a narrative sense, though Retribution and Invasion seem to make the choice almost irrelevant.

Nearly all the choices you make are irrelevant in the long run.

[JukeFrog]

Personally I found destroying the base to be more insulting to the memory of the colonists than keeping it.

[xxSgt_Reed_24xx]

I find it silly to destroy a potential resource that may (or may not, but it's better to have it rather than not) help against the reapers for something like the "soul of our species".

[Eranen]

JukeFrog wrote...

Personally I found destroying the base to be more insulting to the memory of the colonists than keeping it.

Since my character was paragon (in most if not all cases) this was how she would feel.
But I felt (at the time of my first play through) that the potential of the base far outweighed any upstanding moral convictions, and that destroying the base because of that reason would be rather... petty. 
But then again this technology was ultimately created by the reapers so even if reverse engineer from the technology you find your basically doing the same thing as every species has done with "prothean" tech in the past, which brings to mind what sovereign said in ME1  "you evolve along the lines we design" (or something like that). So its kind of like running in circles.

Hmm, I would not be surprised if what I said made no sense.   

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Inb4 flamewar.

[Ausstig]

The way I see it is this; the base makes reapers, therefore it must have blueprints, designs, something in how they work and are put together something we can look at and find a weakness.
I mean Sovereign took down a huge amount of ships so any way to even the would help.

oh, maybe a gun that simulates what happen to Sovereign after husk Sarren is destroyed, that would be use full.

[Medhia Nox]

@Saphra Deden: which is why you keep a serial killer on board your ship.

@xxSgt_Reed_24xx: Yeah, "souls" are really unbelievable in a fictional universe with biotics, Relays, aliens (fiction in the real world no matter how much you want it), and resurrection via science.

I don't argue the choice to destroy it - but neither choice is more valid than the other.

@Austigg: the base makes Reapers via a automated slave race that is periodically taken over by the master species. There's nothing logical about putting schematics on a ship where the mindless race won't read them.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 30 juillet 2011 - 02:01 .

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Medhia Nox wrote...

I don't argue the choice to destroy it - but neither choice is more valid than the other.

Mmm...logic,real logic.

[Ausstig]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Austigg: the base makes Reapers via a automated slave race that is periodically taken over by the master species. There's nothing logical about putting schematics on a ship where the mindless race won't read them.

But if it is automated then the computers would have the plans. Also there are 'parts' materials stuff we can study to get a better understanding of them. know your enemy.

Also are the Collecters auto matted? where does it say that they are, i always thought that they were like the Geth or Keepers, programed but with limited freedom.

[SandTrout]

Neither choice is in and of itself indicative of delusional world-view. It is possible for one to logically come to either conclusion, based on personal values and estimates of associated risk. I am a paragon and chose to destroy the base for a number of reasons, not for someone else's nebulous morality.

My decision, in the simplest way to state it, was based on reducing the chance of needing to go through it all again. From what we have seen, indoctrination is a continuous risk when dealing with anything relating to the Reapers, and the last thing that I wanted was for a Cerberus team to get indoctrinated by the base, and just replace the Collectors as a Reaper asset that would come back to bite me in the butt at some inconvenient time.

I estimated minimum gains in the short period of time we have until the Reapers hit us, but there is still adequate time for the research team to get indoctrinated and start to feed the Reapers data.

Long term, assuming we beat the Reapers, TIM with an intact collector base is a liability. While I am capable of appreciating TIM's goals, I am unable to condone his means. The intact CB would allow TIM to leverage Cerberus into a position of power after the war that would make him almost impossible to control. Alternately, if the CB is destroyed, Cerberus remains active, but it remains in the shadows, conducting shady operations and unethical research, but with limited leverage, forcing them to be more picky with their operations. This is a roll for Cerberus that I consider manageable, and if they start going completely batcrap nuts, they are still small enough to put down, something I fear will be nearly impossible if they keep the base.

[Medhia Nox]

Does a factory machine "have the plans"? Does a blender "have the plans"?

Not all machines have schematics mysteriously installed in case the owner wants to discover its mysteries.

Factory machines perform a function. To discover how they worked would require reverse engineering.

Go ahead and reverse engineer your blender - from scratch - cataloging each piece. Then - after every tiny piece's purpose is understood - reconstruct the thing. Let me know how long it takes. Now - let's try to imagine what reverse engineering a blender that makes sentient god-bots might be like. How long it might take - while the galaxy is burning.

Cerberus Scientists: We did it! We understand how to make a Reaper!

Cerberus Engineer: GREAT! Now how's that going to help us? 

Cerberus Goon: It's not - the last planet fell three months ago.

((Note: video games are designed around rewarding the player with feel good stimulus. Keeping the base will not result in this event - the game will inform you of how clever you were for your action. Destroying it - the game will also inform you how smart you were for seeing it for the danger it was.))

===

Indoctrination destroys brain function - the Prothean "husks" that are the Collectors have - according to the storyline - destroyed everything Prothean within them.

I don't believe it's unreasonable to assume that they're anything more than automated workers.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 30 juillet 2011 - 02:34 .

[ThePwener]

Well, now that we know that Cerberus isn't indoctrinated, then the Base is a go. We'll obviously use it once TIM is deaded. HUMAN DOMINANCE!!!!

[Anacronian Stryx]

"Hmm Shep old chap decision time, Here we are on a base ment to serve the Reapers what do we know - Hmm i know that Sovereign had an indoctrinating effect on everybody on Vermire and here is that Larvae lying on the floor of that pit.. but is it truly dead and will that matter? .. that 37 million years old reaper we visited to find the IFF was dead but it could still indoctrinate and what about TIM..will he take precautions?..well he must have known about indoctrination by the time he send those researchers to the reaper hulk and still they got indoctrinated..and even IF he takes precautions..do i really want him to get his hands on this base..because he will sooner or later I'm not naive enough to think otherwise.. in the end the question seem to be do i trust TIM?... no the base has to go".

Modifié par Anacronian Stryx, 30 juillet 2011 - 02:37 .

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Does a factory machine "have the plans"? Does a blender "have the plans"?

Not all machines have schematics mysteriously installed in case the owner wants to discover its mysteries.

Factory machines perform a function. To discover how they worked would require reverse engineering.

Go ahead and reverse engineer your blender - from scratch - cataloging each piece. Then - after every tiny piece's purpose is understood - reconstruct the thing. Let me know how long it takes. Now - let's try to imagine what reverse engineering a blender that makes sentient god-bots might be like. How long it might take - while the galaxy is burning.

Cerberus Scientists: We did it! We understand how to make a Reaper!

Cerberus Engineer: GREAT! Now how's that going to help us? 

Cerberus Goon: It's not - the last planet fell three months ago.

((Note: video games are designed around rewarding the player with feel good stimulus. Keeping the base will not result in this event - the game will inform you of how clever you were for your action. Destroying it - the game will also inform you how smart you were for seeing it for the danger it was.))

===

Indoctrination destroys brain function - the Prothean "husks" that are the Collectors have - according to the storyline - destroyed everything Prothean within them.

I don't believe it's unreasonable to assume that they're anything more than automated workers.

One could safely assume the collectors have been at it long enough to not need blueprints and schematics,especially if they were programmed to do the whole...reaper making/base custodian thing.

[ThePwener]

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

"Hmm Shep old chap decision time, Here we are on a base ment to serve the Reapers what do we know - Hmm i know that Sovereign had an indoctrinating effect on everybody on Vermire and here is that Larvae lying on the floor of that pit.. but is it truly dead and will that matter? .. that 37 million years old reaper we visited to find the IFF was dead but it could still indoctrinate and what about TIM..will he take precautions?..well he must have known about indoctrination by the time he send those researchers to the reaper hulk and still they got indoctrinated..and even IF he takes precautions..do i really want him to get his hands on this base..because he will sooner or later I'm not naive enough to think otherwise.. in the end the question seem to be do i trust TIM?... no the base has to go but this base has the potential to serve us in out fight to save the galaxy and stop the cyscle of genocide that has killed the galaxy for over 50,000,000 years. To justify it's destruction because of one man, is absurd. If the Protheans were still alive, they'd tell us to keep the base and take as many risks as necessary. These are the Reapers after all, not some anarchist revolutionary or simple war. This is a war for the survival of countless future lives. I'll [metagame] keep the base".

Reality hits ya.

Modifié par ThePwener, 30 juillet 2011 - 02:45 .

[Homebound]

This cosmic dance of bursting decadence and withheld permissions twists all our arms collectively. But, if sweetness can win, and it can, then I'll still be here tomorrow to high-five you yesterday, my friend. Peace.

[Medhia Nox]

I just don't see where everyone instantly thinks:

Wow, this thing's sole purpose is for storing species and making coolatta's out of the stored species.

There must be uber-win weapon schematics on here!!

What?

=====

Gutting the ship of all those stupid cocoons alone would take huge amounts of manpower and time. ((Anyone else wonder how they would fit a Yahg or Krogan into the cocoons? Very specific functionality to be "human" shaped...))

Not to mention human livable quarters (mess hall, med bay, sleeping quarters, bathrooms), bridge for piloting (instantly recognizable controls - controls that don't answer to Collector DNA)

It's like if I tried to live in a Nautilus shell using the logic - well, a nautilus lived in that shell, so surely I must be able to!

((again, of course it'll be of some use to people who saved it... video game/feel good reward system... you won't be punished. But arguing that it's some superior brain function to jump to all these conclusions and ignore any dangers/pitfalls - I'm not seeing it.))

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 30 juillet 2011 - 02:55 .