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[In Exile]

SandTrout wrote...
I'd actually agree that Reaper > Extinction. However, I apparently view our chances against the Reapers as greater than you do. If it comes to the point where our extinction is garaunteed, I would surrender to the Reapers. Available data, however, does not reflect a near 100% (IE: 99.9%) chance of loosing to the Reapers.

Even if we have a 5% chance of victory, the risk-benefit analysis of fighting the Reapers favors fighting. I consider continuing as a species 1000 times better of a scenario than becoming a Reaper.

I don't see the benefit in some continued existence if we're all dead. Post-death, nothing really matters. It's one thing to talk about better futures for your loved ones, but if they all die with you... then what exactly is the gain?

I prefer our legacy to be a giant "Go **** Yourselves" like the anti-reaper weapon. 

Unless, of course, reaper slushee meant a kind of immortality (as in, people continue to exist as AI). It would mean Shepard was guilty of genocide again (two for two!) but at least it would be a tempting offer versus death. 

[In Exile]

Although, now that I think about it, a "We are Shepard!" ""We are your salvation through destruction!" would be a pretty cool line to hear. Name works, too. 

Modifié par In Exile, 15 août 2011 - 06:22 .

[Xilizhra]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Hah! According to your own assessment, Saphra, Shepard isn't even capable of human procreation. So this is the only thing close I have left.

Not true at all. Shepard could always have a child the same way Miranda's father did. Someone with Shepard's clout and connections could easily get it done.

Besides, at the end of the day this isn't just about YOU.

This is about your species. Your family, your friends, your kin. An alien cannot offer you family or kin.

This is what I mean when I say people are being selfish. They're looking purely at what is good for them, personally, and not at what is good for humanity. It's all about #1 and not the big picture.

And I disagree about what aliens can offer. They are us, we are them; all alive, all thinking, all feeling. All, in the end, are one. And we will stand together or not stand at all.

[SandTrout]

[quote]I prefer our legacy to be a giant "Go **** Yourselves" like the anti-reaper weapon. [/quote]Different preferrences. I can understand where you're coming from.

[/quote]Unless, of course, reaper slushee meant a kind of immortality (as in, people continue to exist as AI). It would mean Shepard was guilty of genocide again (two for two!) but at least it would be a tempting offer versus death. [/quote] I kind of think that is the basis of Saphra's position. Even that is an unknown, though, which further debunks her position.

[In Exile]

SandTrout wrote...

Different preferrences. I can understand where you're coming from.

If death is inevitable, I prefer to die fighting. At the end of the day, I think life has meaning based on how we live it, and to me there's nothing more profound that fighting on till the last breath, if the only thing left to you is that or a different sort of execution.

I kind of think that is the basis of Saphra's position. Even that is an unknown, though, which further debunks her position.

Not that we can even trust the reapers, of course. Though maybe reaper-shep has a role to play in that. 

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

SandTrout wrote...

I prefer our legacy to be a giant "Go **** Yourselves" like the anti-reaper weapon.

Different preferrences. I can understand where you're coming from.

Unless, of course, reaper slushee meant a kind of immortality (as in, people continue to exist as AI)..

]Like the ghost ship from CNN?(Cerberus news network yeah I know thats not what it is called.)

Modifié par Humanoid_Typhoon, 15 août 2011 - 06:30 .

[Someone With Mass]

Most of Shepard's family and friends are dead.

[Xilizhra]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

Stop twisting it around. YOU'RE selfish because you have no problem at "continued legacy of humanity" at the cost of every other species out there.

The other species are competitors. That's all they are, it's all they can be. That's just the nature of the universe. We have to put humanity first because no one else will. The moment we stop caring about our own species is the moment we go extinct.

You are an example of this. You would choose to destroy humanity for the sake of alien species. Why? What does humanity gain from it? If humans thought like you they'd have never survived the evolutionary guantlet on Earth. Self-lessnes does not serve a species very well. All it does is create an opportunity for the non-selfless to exploit you.

Foolish, wasteful, and not conducive to our ascension as a species. Cultures stagnate in a vacuum. We and other species have plenty to learn from each other, to give each other. Exchange our ideas and technologies and grow stronger as a whole. We may compete, but it need not be fatal and it need not be a zero-sum game.

[KnightofPhoenix]

In Exile wrote...

I don't see the benefit in some continued existence if we're all dead. Post-death, nothing really matters. It's one thing to talk about better futures for your loved ones, but if they all die with you... then what exactly is the gain?

I prefer our legacy to be a giant "Go **** Yourselves" like the anti-reaper weapon. 

Unless, of course, reaper slushee meant a kind of immortality (as in, people continue to exist as AI). It would mean Shepard was guilty of genocide again (two for two!) but at least it would be a tempting offer versus death. 

This is something I've been discussing in the other thread.

What Sovereign says, that they are each an independent nation, and Legion's comment that says Reapers are closer to us than to AIs (as in even their collective mind thing is not like the geth), makes the prospect of existing as Reapers appealing in some ways.

Based on what we know, which is little, I do not believe it's a horrible existence. I would not exist. You would not exist. But Humanity would, in a different form.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 août 2011 - 06:39 .

[Xilizhra]

I believe equal interdependence would be better. Make everyone rely on everyone else, make everyone motivated to help everyone else. It would serve humanity well along with the other species, and lessens the potential for war.

[SandTrout]

Saphra Deden wrote...

I want independence.

And advocate surrender and submission.

[Medhia Nox]

Since the Reapers are destined to destroy endless cycles of civilizations - you are condemning untold space faring civilizations to destruction by creating another Reaper out of human beings.

If every race had said "F-YOU" to the Reapers (provided they had the chance) instead of giving in - then the cycle would have never been started (aside from the fact that the Reapers were assuredly created by the first species in existence capable of high thought processes).

Assisting the Reapers - in any way - condemns the galaxy to constant suffering. If that is done in the name of self-preservation (even of a species) it is - to me - the epitome of selfishness.

===

That being said - the Reapers promote biodiversity. Sapient species create stagnation in an ecosystem - I need only to present the apple to prove my point - the number of apple species today has declined dramatically from the time when they were "wild" (free?). This is seen across the board in domestication - a stagnation of basic evolutionary functions as life forms conform to the evolutionary decisions of the sapient species involved in domestication.

However - the universe takes care of this naturally through extinction events on our own planet. One can assume that - if life is to exist on other planets - that extinction events occur there as well thereby solving the issue of biodiversity stagnation caused by sapient influence (infection?).

====

Therefore - the Reapers serve no purpose. Their cycle needs to be broken - contributing to it is a diabolical act.

The human species needs to go extinct (whether through an event or evolution) - but not via the Reapers - which are the ultimate form of biodiversity stagnation.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 15 août 2011 - 06:43 .

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

SandTrout wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

I want independence.

And advocate surrender and submission.

She also wants to be a collective mind in a reaper.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xilizhra wrote...

I believe equal interdependence would be better. Make everyone rely on everyone else, make everyone motivated to help everyone else. It would serve humanity well along with the other species, and lessens the potential for war.

Something that historically never happened. As not all possess something that is useful to others, and not all possess the strength to prevent another from simply taking by force what he has. It completely ignores balance of power dynamics and the inherent inequality of it. So unless there is some technology created as a great mass equalizer, I doubt such a thing is possible to achieve. 

You'll always need a hegemon from galactic stability. Whether it's one, or a mutually interdependent alliance of 3.

[Sisterofshane]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

In Exile wrote...

I don't see the benefit in some continued existence if we're all dead. Post-death, nothing really matters. It's one thing to talk about better futures for your loved ones, but if they all die with you... then what exactly is the gain?

I prefer our legacy to be a giant "Go **** Yourselves" like the anti-reaper weapon. 

Unless, of course, reaper slushee meant a kind of immortality (as in, people continue to exist as AI). It would mean Shepard was guilty of genocide again (two for two!) but at least it would be a tempting offer versus death. 

This is something I've been discussing in the other thread.

What Sovereign says, that they are each an independent nation, and Legion's comment that says Reapers are closer to us than to AIs (as in even their collective mind thing is not like the geth), makes the propsect of existing as Reapers appealing in some ways.

Based on what we know, which is little, I do not believe it's a horrible existence. I would not exist. You would not exist. But Humanity would, in a different form.

Still, there is no reason to believe that there is anything left of the collective species after they have been transformed.  Why do they all side with one another?  Why have they all agreed that this "cycle" must continue, even though seemingly before hand, we can assume that each species fought to the bitter end?

There is a fundamental transformation that takes place when a species is "ascended", and I think it is forced upon us.  Whether it be implanted after the fact, or a side-effect of the horrifying process changing our very psychology, we are no longer "humans", as we know it today.

One question I always wondered was that, if we will be "a nation, independent, free of all weaknesses", why is it then that all Reapers just fall in line, not even questioning the nature of their existence?  It's almost as if they have lost all philosophical motivations for living.  IMO, I think that is a weakness.  They lose the ability to self-determinate.  Not really a future I would want for myself, or I think I would just go become a Stepford Wife.