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[In Exile]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
But why would he use the word "nation"?

I think we're speaking past each other. When I say hive mind, I mean that each individual reaper has their AIs interconnected, as a platform. While it may be independent from other reapers, that doesn't mean that they aren't a collective, just that it ends at the platform and they never join each other.

I think each Reaper has a collective mind, but is unique when compared to the others.

Right, that was what I was getting at.

And if that uniqueness which makes each an independent nation is based on the assimilated species, then humanity can continue to exist in that form. As an eternal nation.

That's not really humanity. That's just an archeological relic. 

[Sisterofshane]

In Exile wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...
One question I always wondered was that, if we will be "a nation, independent, free of all weaknesses", why is it then that all Reapers just fall in line, not even questioning the nature of their existence?  It's almost as if they have lost all philosophical motivations for living.  IMO, I think that is a weakness.  They lose the ability to self-determinate.  Not really a future I would want for myself, or I think I would just go become a Stepford Wife.

Or it may be that being a reaper is like heaven - a portable, technological afterlife, for as long as the universe exists. No pain, no suffering, just pure bliss. Everything we'd all want out of life. And that feeling so great the reapers just have to share. 

I don't think that "pure bliss" causes things to go out and exterminate other life forms.  Truly peaceful beings just don't try to assert their will among others who have no concept of it.

But what a plot twist if it were...I would so hate the devs if that was the way it ended.

[In Exile]

Luc0s wrote...
Yeah keep on dreaming. Heck even (the Christian) God doesn't FORCE his bliss and his heaven on us. We still have free-will and a free choice to believe in him or or not to believe in him. And even when we believe in him, we still have the choice to reject him.

You asked why they would group-think their way to agreeing with the cycle. I gave you a reason. I don't understand what you're talking about.

The reapers give us no choice. That's because they aren't gods, they are tyrants.

Neither does God. At least, the talmudic one. And as far as I know, the Christian one is the same. The terms are set, the contract is there, and you're punished for a breach no matter what.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

SandTrout wrote...

No one buys into your pessimism, Saphra. You should probably think about why that is.

It's because there is no point in making the Reapers' job any easier.

Fighting pointlessly will just reduce the number of humans available to make our Reaper, potentially weakening it.

Well, good.

[KnightofPhoenix]

In Exile wrote...

And if that uniqueness which makes each an independent nation is based on the assimilated species, then humanity can continue to exist in that form. As an eternal nation.

That's not really humanity. That's just an archeological relic. 

I don't think we know enough to say for sure what that is.
But I really don't find it that unappealing.

It's something I'd only accept if I am forced in a corner for sure though.

[In Exile]

Sisterofshane wrote...
I don't think that "pure bliss" causes things to go out and exterminate other life forms.

They're not exterminating them, though. From their PoV, organics die anyway. But the reapers can save those worth saving, giving them eternal life and happiness. That's a gift, not a curse.

Truly peaceful beings just don't try to assert their will among others who have no concept of it.

I didn't say they were peaceful. I just said it was a bliss.

But what a plot twist if it were...I would so hate the devs if that was the way it ended.

Why?

[SandTrout]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

I'm cynic and extremely skeptic on almost everything. I'm pretty much a nihilist. Yet even I think your ideas are insane.

You just aren't up to my level then. Keep working at it. One day you'll be as jaded as I am. Hopefully as practicle too.

Surrender when a chance for victory exists is not practical, it's suicidal.

[In Exile]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I don't think we know enough to say for sure what that is.
But I really don't find it that unappealing.

Aside from the eternal murder cycle. I wouldn't support exterminating the existence of every single human, no matter what.

It's something I'd only accept if I am forced in a corner for sure though.

Like I said: I see death as preferable. If we're damned to cease existing, I'd rather make that existence worth something more than the creation of a machine of mass murder. 

[GodWood]

Luc0s wrote...
I'm pretty much a nihilist.

Luc0s wrote...
I'm pretty much a Buddhist

Make up your mind lad

[KnightofPhoenix]

In Exile wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I don't think we know enough to say for sure what that is.
But I really don't find it that unappealing.

Aside from the eternal murder cycle. I wouldn't support exterminating the existence of every single human, no matter what.

It's something I'd only accept if I am forced in a corner for sure though.

Like I said: I see death as preferable. If we're damned to cease existing, I'd rather make that existence worth something more than the creation of a machine of mass murder. 

If that extermination results in ascension, then I believe it might be better than death. I need more info to make up my mind.

But I understand your position. Ultimately, at the risk of trivializing the issue, I think it's a matter of preference.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 août 2011 - 07:21 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

SandTrout wrote...

No one buys into your pessimism, Saphra. You should probably think about why that is.

It's because there is no point in making the Reapers' job any easier.

Fighting pointlessly will just reduce the number of humans available to make our Reaper, potentially weakening it.

If you think for just a sec about the fraction of the population that will get involved in the actual fighting, you'll know that it's negligible.

[In Exile]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
If that extermination results in ascension, then I believe it might be better than death. I need more info to make up my mind.  

What do you mean by ascension? To what?

But I understand your position. Ultimately, at the risk of trivializing the issue, I think it's a matter of preference. 

Well, metaphysics is just preference. And I'm being totally serious when I say that: whatever metaphysical primitives you want, you pretty much have to pick just cause. 

[Sisterofshane]

In Exile wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...
I don't think that "pure bliss" causes things to go out and exterminate other life forms.

They're not exterminating them, though. From their PoV, organics die anyway. But the reapers can save those worth saving, giving them eternal life and happiness. That's a gift, not a curse.

Truly peaceful beings just don't try to assert their will among others who have no concept of it.

I didn't say they were peaceful. I just said it was a bliss.

But what a plot twist if it were...I would so hate the devs if that was the way it ended.

Why?

Then why not just tell us that?  Why look at us with disgust and disdain, speak to us with arrogance in their voice, and then only be selective in which species they want to "ascend"?  They look at us as "lesser" beings, not unfortunate, but weak - an accident.  Who are they to judge us "worthy" of such a higher existence?  Shouldn't they then wish it for all sentient creatures, not just a select few?  Even then, should it not be a future shared amongst ALL members of the species?  Why leave some behind, for no apparent reason but to discard them like one does a tool?  There is much to suggest within the game that the Reapers obviously feel superior to us, but nothing to suggest that we will actually prefer their existence of our own volition.

And why be disappointed?  Well, the obvious answer is because it would not be the ending I would want to pay for.
That there is some alterior motive to the Reapers that we could not guess would be alright, IMO, but I don't like the idea that it happens just because their way of living is judged to be superior.

[KnightofPhoenix]

In Exile wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
If that extermination results in ascension, then I believe it might be better than death. I need more info to make up my mind.  

What do you mean by ascension? To what?

To an eternal existence, free of many (but not all) weaknesses. To perhaps the peak of sentient existence, with the ability to imposing our will on nature itself. In other words, almost godhood. Perfect equality even (unless Reapers have a hierarchy).

All that is still more or less speculation, and I am hoping that ME3 will shed more light on this. Then I will make up my mind fully. If Reapers still have something of their original species and truly are independent nations in the real meaning of the word, I'd find it appealing to some extent.

Well, metaphysics is just preference. And I'm being totally serious when I say that: whatever metaphysical primitives you want, you pretty much have to pick just cause. 

Indeed.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 août 2011 - 07:32 .