3618 réponses à ce sujet

[efrgfhnm_]

AlanC9 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Protip: If you want me to ever take you seriously, Lotion, stop overusing smileys like some twelve year old that just found out about chat rooms.

And if you mean something else than you've written in your comments, feel free to write it down instead of coming up with it later and pretend you know better just because you can't word your opinion correctly.

You're not a pro, so your tips are menaing less to me. And I'll use as many smileyes as I want, when I want.
What you think of me is completely irrelveant to me.

And don't be mad you just got owned bro...It happens to the best of us.

Dude, he's got a point. A whole row of smileys looks juvenile. Unless you actually are only 12 or so, this isn't a habit you want to keep.

The constant spelling mistakes don't help either....

[AlanC9]

Phaedon wrote...

You are claiming than an incomplete Reaper has more tech than a complete one. Start making some sense.

Wait a second. I thought the claim was that a Reaper construction facility has more tech than a completed Reaper that's been blown to pieces. This strikes me as being... rather likely, actually. We certainly did our best to get our hands on German rocket scientists and blueprints after WW2, rather than settling for just capturing the V-2s themselves. And note that having the USS Iowa on hand didn't mean that we knew how to replace one of its 16-inch batteries after a turret explosion -- the shipyard was long gone and the knowledge of how to build such guns went with it.

[efrgfhnm_]

pablodurando wrote...

efrgfhnm wrote...

Umm, I think keeping the Collector Base only makes sense from the POV of a Shepard supporting Cerberus, and clearly by now from a metagaming perspective or Paragon, it makes no sense. Even when you think about it hard you can tell it wouldn't make any sense, since the Collectors aren't going to be provided with any tech that could harm Reapers, since they would deem it unnecesary because we organics are so low and everything. The comparative weakness of the Collector ship and the Human Reaper also point to the base providing nothing of any value to the war effort

I don't find it useless, the base was built by the Reapers, so it makes a great place to study indoctrination and certain Reaper technology that was impleneted by the Reapers for the Collectors to use.  It could lead to great technological innovation for man in the future.  I don't save it for the war, I save it for the future.

Planning ahead for after the war? Now that I admit I didn't consider.. In that case, I agree it would provide some valuable insights. However, I would have thought that the dozens, if not hundreds of dead reapers floating around in space would provide far more technological advances. The Collector Base would be very useful early on and provide humanity with an early lead I admit, and I guess if you're that confident of winning, it may prove useful

[Phaedon]

AlanC9 wrote...
Wait a second. I thought the claim was that a Reaper construction facility has more tech than a completed Reaper that's been blown to pieces. This strikes me as being... rather likely, actually. We certainly did our best to get our hands on German rocket scientists and blueprints after WW2, rather than settling for just capturing the V-2s themselves. And note that having the USS Iowa on hand didn't mean that we knew how to replace one of its 16-inch batteries after a turret explosion -- the shipyard was long gone and the knowledge of how to build such guns went with it.

Considering that the Collectors were assembling the Reaper piece by piece that sounds extremely unlikely. Otherwise they could have very well already be done with the mechanical Reaper before harvesting any colonies. A human lavra is hardly impressive for 2 years of 24/7 work by drones.

Not that even so that would have any effect on my original argument and/or position.

Modifié par Phaedon, 30 juillet 2011 - 11:43 .

[SandTrout]

Considering that the Collectors were assembling the Reaper piece by piece that sounds extremely unlikely. Otherwise they could have very well already be done with the mechanical Reaper before harvesting any colonies. A human lavra is hardly impressive for 2 years of 24/7 work by drones.

Not that even so that would have any effect on my original argument and/or position.

OK, this is another false 'fact'. The Human Reaper was not being constructed, per-se. It was being grown. The Human Slurpees were being introduced directly into the larval Reaper's structure, which implies that the actual construction mechanism of the HR is integral to the larva itself. The Collectors were not building the HR via an assembly line or with different parts that would be assembled at a latter date.

The process is apparently more similar to biological reproduction in that once the process is initiated, it requires only the appropriate resources in order to continue growth. The HR is a Reaper, and likely has all or most of the key components of a reaper, but most are in an undeveloped/unusable state.

All the collectors needed to do was to start the process, theoretically via some sort of Reaper 'egg', and after that, they just keep feeding it human slurpees.

I just thought I should clear up that point.

[LiquidLogic2020]

There was no real choice, the reapers easily wipe out all life because space faring races use reaper tech, the only way to combat them is to stop relying on it.

[Seboist]

efrgfhnm wrote...

Umm, I think keeping the Collector Base only makes sense from the POV of a Shepard supporting Cerberus, and clearly by now from a metagaming perspective or Paragon, it makes no sense. Even when you think about it hard you can tell it wouldn't make any sense, since the Collectors aren't going to be provided with any tech that could harm Reapers, since they would deem it unnecesary because we organics are so low and everything. The comparative weakness of the Collector ship and the Human Reaper also point to the base providing nothing of any value to the war effort
By the way, these wall of text arguments between are quite impressive, especially how they're so completely one-sided. I'm also getting the impression this topic is gonna get closed as well haha....

My canon Shepard wasn't pro-cerberus in my first playthrough of ME2 and she kept the base. Keeping the base makes perfect sense from a POV of someone who isn't motivated by self-rightous arrogance and blubbering idealism.

[Yakko77]

If the option to hand it over to anyone but Cerberus was there, I'd have kept it with my paragade Sheps. Let Mordin run the research or bring in Adm. Hackett and an Alliance research team, ANYONE but Cerberus.

Modifié par Yakko77, 31 juillet 2011 - 03:28 .

[alperez]

HomelessGal wrote...


Sorry about the delay there, went off to dinner.

Well, Legion also logically concludes that you should keep the base. His actual opinion may differ, but there you have it.

I just think that the Geth and the rest of the galaxy are too different to really apply the former's ideology to the latter. The Geth essentially have the "luxury" of isolation where Legion's "advance on your own" idealism can work, but the rest of the galaxy is one big melting pot of technological advancement. Everything is going to be shared eventually, whether they like it or not, so it almost seems weird that Legion tries to apply it to our situation despite his stance on using human morality to resolve his loyalty mission.

I think we may just have to agree to disagree. It was nice to actually have a civil debate here, though.

Sorry for my own delay in replying, i went off to watch football lol.

You are right its nice to have a civil debate.

Just one more point though if i may, its not so much his idealogy as such or even whether or not his logic actually really should apply, as your completely right the geth situation makes them much different to the rest of the galaxy.

Its more that when someone says something to you once as sovereign does in me1 and then legion repeats basicaly the same point in me2, to me anyway it was kinda "hey wait a sec, could they be right" moment, so when i made my choice on the base, these 2 statements (along with many other factors) influenced my decision.

In saying that it only validates that position if that's how you take it, if you take it differently or it doesn't factor that much into your reasoning for keeping or destroying the base, then that's fine as well.

Or in other words just because its right for me, doesn't make it right for you.

As for what he says about the base, that whole line of thinking is so messed up, people make such dramatic u-turns once you make the choice it comes across as really stupid, so i think you should pretty much ignore their advice on keeping or destroying the base, since once you decided they practically all say you were right to destroy it, even if just moments before they implored you to keep it.

But as you say we can agree to disagree and keep our civility to a minimum (it sets a bad example lol).

[javierabegazo]

Guys, just swooping in to say thanks for maintaining a sincere, thoughtful and respectful on-topic discussion. Bravo. Carry on.

[Admoniter]

LiquidLogic2020 wrote...

There was no real choice, the reapers easily wipe out all life because space faring races use reaper tech, the only way to combat them is to stop relying on it.

That doesn't mean you don't take an oppurtunity that is handed to you. Yes additional technological paths should be explored, but certain tech should not be cast aside simply because Reapers are using it. Because when you get right down to it if someone offers you a Reaper weapon system you don't just throw it away, you take it and use it because it is stands whatever you recieved is going to be superior to anything you are using currently. So yes the ultimate goal should be to go down a different path using technology that the Reapers are not using, but just because the Reapers are not using it does not mean that the technology will be useful or effective. In the end it comes down to this IMO you integrate any tech no matter the origin while exploring other options, because when the Reapers come a knocking I'd rather have something that they use rather than have nothing because developing tech that would be useful against the Reapers from scratch will most likely take and arduos amount of time and resources (things that we will be short on) and threw away everything in the name of "carving our own way."

Modifié par Admoniter, 31 juillet 2011 - 03:44 .

[goofyomnivore]

LiquidLogic2020 wrote...

There was no real choice, the reapers easily wipe out all life because space faring races use reaper tech, the only way to combat them is to stop relying on it.

The technology they desire and want you to use(Mass Relays and the Citadel). I doubt it was in their plans for us to get our hands on Sovereign's guts and their Reaper-baby making facility.

I personally think the understanding and insight into the Reapers would be just as valuable if not more than any actual tangible technology in the facility. We're completly ignorant to them and they know tons about us. It is hard to fight something you know nothing about, and that base gives a plausible/possible chance to lift the shroud of ignorance up -- even if it is in the slightest.

Modifié par strive, 31 juillet 2011 - 03:50 .

[alperez]

Yakko77 wrote...

If the option to hand it over to anyone but Cerberus was there, I'd have kept it with my paragade Sheps. Let Mordin run the research or bring in Adm. Hackett and an Alliance research team, ANYONE but Cerberus.

See that's a completely logical statement, the mere fact that there wasn't an option to do anything other than destroy or hand the base over to cerberus should prove just what kind of a choice you really were making imo.

The choice was put in such a black and white fashion that the key question of the choice really wasn't, does this base have any potential to help against the reapers it was more do you trust or not trust that Cerberus will actually use the base to help you against the reapers.

If the answer to the former was that yes the base really does have something useful that will help you against the reapers then why are you so limited in what you can in your choice.

In essence why wasn't the choice keep the base but don't hand it over if the choice wasn't about trusting cerberus?

[alperez]

strive wrote...

The technology they desire and want you to use(Mass Relays and the Citadel). I doubt it was in their plans for us to get our hands on Sovereign's guts and their Reaper-baby making facility.

I personally think the understanding and insight into the Reapers would be just as valuable if not more than any actual tangible technology in the facility. We're completly ignorant to them and they know tons about us. It is hard to fight something you know nothing about, and that base gives a plausible/possible chance to lift the shroud of ignorance up -- even if it is in the slightest.

I'm sure certainly in sovereign's case that is entirely true.

As for the base, that's something we can't really be sure of, at the moment i'd agree it makes no sense that they would want us to have the base or that they planned for us to have it (but its also possible that they actually do) that because of what happened with Sovereign, everything we've done in me2 is part of a larger plan (that as of yet we don't know), i'm not saying this is the case or that its even likely, just that until me3, we only know what we think we know.

As for studying the tech and gaining insight into the reapers, there are other ways that aren't as dangerous as handing over a practically fully functional base to an organisation who don't have the best track record when it comes to studying that tech imo.

[Yakko77]

alperez wrote...

Yakko77 wrote...

If the option to hand it over to anyone but Cerberus was there, I'd have kept it with my paragade Sheps. Let Mordin run the research or bring in Adm. Hackett and an Alliance research team, ANYONE but Cerberus.

See that's a completely logical statement, the mere fact that there wasn't an option to do anything other than destroy or hand the base over to cerberus should prove just what kind of a choice you really were making imo.

The choice was put in such a black and white fashion that the key question of the choice really wasn't, does this base have any potential to help against the reapers it was more do you trust or not trust that Cerberus will actually use the base to help you against the reapers.

If the answer to the former was that yes the base really does have something useful that will help you against the reapers then why are you so limited in what you can in your choice.

In essence why wasn't the choice keep the base but don't hand it over if the choice wasn't about trusting cerberus?

I really like the choice oriented RPGs that BW developes but often times I don't like the choices provided or would prefer more options at the least.  I indicated my preference that wasn't available for ME2 and with DA2, I wish  there was an option to simply side with the town guard, protect the people and let the Templars and mages wipe each other out in Kirkwall... or my Eric Cartman option, "Screw you guys, I'm going home."  LOL!!

As for ME2, as annoying as they are, I'd be more willing to bring the Council to the Collector base than Cerberus.

"Ah, yes, Reapers.." this Turian Councilor!

 

[alperez]

Yakko77 wrote...


"Ah, yes, Reapers.." this Turian Councilor!

 

Seriously how many of us are going to be pissed if that's not an option in me3.

[alperez]

HomelessGal wrote...

I think the decision to keep the base/trust Cerberus or destroy the base/not trust Cerberus would've been more satisfying if the circumstances of the Council and Alliance stonewalling you had been portrayed more effectively. Sort of a Devil's bargain against even greater Devils; for better or worse Cerberus is your "only ally" against the Reapers (I'm oversimplifying, yes) and here you have a potential tool they can utilize. Do you feel you can trust them with it, now *and* after the war? As it is, what feel like contrived circumstances "forces" you to work for Cerberus because the Alliance and Council are apparently idiots without Shep, and the choice basically flops in the face of the resulting player resentment.

That would have made the choice a lot more difficult, some people seem to make it out as if that's the choice they're making as it is.

The potential though of as you say a devil's bargain would have been interesting, as it was though it came across as contrived and instead of working with Cerberus because they were the only one's doing something, it actually came across as being forced to work with cerberus against your will for no reason other than "you can't work with the council because we're saving that for the last game".

What could have made it interesting would have been if you found evidence that the council/alliance set you up because you were making such a big deal about the reapers, that they were responsible for your death in some way.

Although i'm not sure how it could have been worked around for me3.

[Yakko77]

HomelessGal wrote...

I think the decision to keep the base/trust Cerberus or destroy the base/not trust Cerberus would've been more satisfying if the circumstances of the Council and Alliance stonewalling you had been portrayed more effectively. Sort of a Devil's bargain against even greater Devils; for better or worse Cerberus is your "only ally" against the Reapers (I'm oversimplifying, yes) and here you have a potential tool they can utilize. Do you feel you can trust them with it, now *and* after the war? As it is, what feel like contrived circumstances "forces" you to work for Cerberus because the Alliance and Council are apparently idiots without Shep, and the choice basically flops in the face of the resulting player resentment.

Well put and this discussion has me wondering if/when I play one of my paragon sheps again will I keep the base next time just to see how that goes with a mostly paragon playthrough in ME3.

[Yakko77]

alperez wrote...

Yakko77 wrote...


"Ah, yes, Reapers.." this Turian Councilor!

 

Seriously how many of us are going to be pissed if that's not an option in me3.

There will be a great disturbance in the Force....

[FoxShadowblade]

Yakko77 wrote...

alperez wrote...

Yakko77 wrote...


"Ah, yes, Reapers.." this Turian Councilor!

 

Seriously how many of us are going to be pissed if that's not an option in me3.

There will be a great disturbance in the Force....

Sorry, I just had some mexican food.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Come on people where did the debate go

[rapscallioness]

Mykel54 wrote...

My main reason for keeping the base is that TIM is the only one with plans to deal with the reapers, not matter how insane his plans are. Quoting the urdnot shaman "Okeer was a madman, but he was a madman with a plan". The council and the rest of the galaxy has no plans, they will have to improvise. My shepard doesn´t trust TIM, but relying on add-hoc plans of the council is not a good idea either. Either way you are taking a risk, but i believe keeping the base is the lesser evil.

But what were his plans? Sincerely. I'm not trying to be an ass. I'm just trying to remember. I told him from the beginning I was going in to blow that ish up, and he had no problem w/it. Then at the last minute he holograms in w/ a "wait a minute, maybe"...what?

I may have missed it. I'm not a big Codex reader. I confess. But as it was, it didn't seem he had any great plan besides trying to scavenge. If he did, he really should have let me know a while ago. Not while I'm lighting the damn fuse.

[Yakko77]

rapscallioness wrote...

Mykel54 wrote...

My main reason for keeping the base is that TIM is the only one with plans to deal with the reapers, not matter how insane his plans are. Quoting the urdnot shaman "Okeer was a madman, but he was a madman with a plan". The council and the rest of the galaxy has no plans, they will have to improvise. My shepard doesn´t trust TIM, but relying on add-hoc plans of the council is not a good idea either. Either way you are taking a risk, but i believe keeping the base is the lesser evil.

But what were his plans? Sincerely. I'm not trying to be an ass. I'm just trying to remember. I told him from the beginning I was going in to blow that ish up, and he had no problem w/it. Then at the last minute he holograms in w/ a "wait a minute, maybe"...what?

I may have missed it. I'm not a big Codex reader. I confess. But as it was, it didn't seem he had any great plan besides trying to scavenge. If he did, he really should have let me know a while ago. Not while I'm lighting the damn fuse.

Maybe no plan is better than a bad plan.

Edit:  Again, if the option was there to give the base to anyone but Cerberus, I'd have been all for saving it but helping a madman stop a threat so he can become one himself after the fact is just...  <_<

Modifié par Yakko77, 31 juillet 2011 - 05:04 .

[rapscallioness]

Even if it wasn't for Cerberus...idk if I woulda given it over. Especially after seeing what that lil bit of reaper tech did to kenson and that team. they thought they had everything under control. Then I walk in and see a bunch of ppl...talking to no one in particular. (lol as soon as she said "tidy up the lab" i was like, oh no, no...then seeing ppl talking to the air, I thought, "Crap!")