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[SandTrout]

The fundamental aspect of a 'right' is your ability to secure it and protect it from violation. In modern western culture, it is the government's job to protect the rights of its citizenry, and it is held accountable by the voting electorate. In Mass Effect, humanity as a species is facing the constant threat of being conquered and loosing the ability to choose what rights our government will protect/respect.

Without the strength to ensure our own independence, we have no self-determined rights, only what our overseers will allow. If we are subservient, we have no rights.

[Someone With Mass]

legion999 wrote...

Luck? Yeah the turian garrison just got hit by an asteroid or something. The fact remains though that humans defeated the turians, something that no race has done for centuries.

Arrogant, much? That was just a fraction of the turian fleet.

[GodWood]

Someone With Mass wrote...
Humanity was stupid enough to open up a relay they had no idea of where it was going or what was on the other side. That's why the turians attacked.

Stupidity is outdoing "evil" by quite a lot.

Those innocent men and women who had no involvement in the decision to open the relay deserved to be bombed by the turians did they?

[legion999]

Someone With Mass wrote...

ThePwener wrote...

Shows how evil the Turians really are with being cool on attacking a new alien race and then going to war with them when they fight back. That doesn't help your case.

Maybe they should've given the rachni a chance to attack them some more too.

Humanity was stupid enough to open up a relay they had no idea of where it was going or what was on the other side. That's why the turians attacked.

Stupidity is outdoing "evil" by quite a lot.

Yes attacking unknown species for breaking your laws is perfecty acceptable.
Also the rachni attacked as soon as they made contact something humans didn't do.

[Seboist]

Davie McG wrote...

SandTrout wrote...

For the discussions of Human Rights in the context of Mass Effect, Cerberus's goal is to first and foremost ensure 1 critical Human Right which supercedes all others: The right of survival. Human Rights cannot exist without humans, and we cannot control any rights if we are subservient to an alien power.

The morally questionable part is the fact that Cerberus violates the rights of individuals on a limited scale in order to protect the rights of the species as a whole. This is not an idea that I agree with, but I do understand it.

I would not trust TIM if he were to take a position of overt power, but in the face of being eradicated by an alien power, almost anything can be theoretically justified. Survival trumps all other priorities.

I agree with you, they are all about making humanity No.1. If that means a few peoples human rights must be violated then they see that as fair enough. I was just saying it would be inaccurate to call them pro human rights. Definently pro human though.

I think people who are pro Cerberus will be a little disappointed with ME3 considering they are the enemy. As far as everything that happened in ME2 goes it wouldn't be irrational to remain with Cerberus if their Shepard feels betrayed by the Alliance. I guess it's unfortunate they didn't give us the opertunity to finish the game as Cerberus hero, it is supposed to be about choice after all.

I'm already prepared to consider the game non-canon if they ruin Cerberus and TIM so it's not any problem for me.

[ThePwener]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Maybe they should've given the rachni a chance to attack them some more too.

Humanity was stupid enough to open up a relay they had no idea of where it was going or what was on the other side. That's why the turians attacked.

Stupidity is outdoing "evil" by quite a lot.

Shos how stupid you are.

Humanity is exploring and learning, they weren't stupid for opening relays. The Turians were for attacking a ship of unknown alien make.

Stop defending them like a blind brainwashed fool. HNothing you say will make that inccident right for the Turian side.

They're ego is too big believing they can do anything and beat everyone. Yet when the Reapers arrive they're homeplanet is taken over faster then earth and the survivors driven to a nearby moon.

[Davie McG]

HomelessGal wrote...

Davie McG wrote...
I think people who are pro Cerberus will be a little disappointed with ME3 considering they are the enemy. As far as everything that happened in ME2 goes it wouldn't be irrational to remain with Cerberus if their Shepard feels betrayed by the Alliance. I guess it's unfortunate they didn't give us the opertunity to finish the game as Cerberus hero, it is supposed to be about choice after all.

Eh, I'm not really that bothered. Hopefully Bioware's going somewhere interesting with the plot thread, but at the very least I'm reasonably entertained by the mystery leading up to ME3's release. We've seen plenty of theories, and its been fun to speculate over each new developer comment or enemy profile.

Then again, I'm not as pro-Cerberus as certain people.

True, My canon Shepard is keen to be back with the Alliance but I like playing every variable.

I've been wondering myself about what's happening with Cerberus. Even if the Illusive Man is indoctrinated, that doesn't mean his soldiers are, or that they would be ok with trying to stop someone who is actually doing something to stop the reapers. It's definently my most anticpated game in quite a while.

[ThePwener]

Someone With Mass wrote...

legion999 wrote...

Luck? Yeah the turian garrison just got hit by an asteroid or something. The fact remains though that humans defeated the turians, something that no race has done for centuries.

Arrogant, much? That was just a fraction of the turian fleet.

They weren't defeated by another race before, that's what matters.

Modifié par ThePwener, 16 août 2011 - 12:54 .

[ThePwener]

Saphra Deden wrote...

No one deserved to be killed by the turians but it was incredibly reckless to ever activate the Charon relay. Anything could have been on the other side. I'd have kept it powered down and dismantled it instead. I'd study the technology and then build my own relays. I'd NEVER activate an alien relay

Well that goes completaly against human nature. The only reason the aliens didn't open them all the time was because of the Rachni, but before that they opened them all the time too. Humanity didn't know it was dangerous. Again, nothing can be said to make the Turians the victims.

[Zulu_DFA]

Davie McG wrote...

That's why being a serial killer is illegal.

No, being a serial killer was illegal long before the concept of "human rights" was invented. So there is no connection.

Davie McG wrote...

Edit: I think you'd enjoy being a Drell. They're all about the mind/body seperation thing.

I quite enjoy being a human not being constantly afraid of all the messy things just because they might happen to me. And I need no stupid mind/body separation, or some stupid "rights" which I won't have any use for anyway, if those messy things do begin happening to me.

[Davie McG]

ThePwener wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

legion999 wrote...

Luck? Yeah the turian garrison just got hit by an asteroid or something. The fact remains though that humans defeated the turians, something that no race has done for centuries.

Arrogant, much? That was just a fraction of the turian fleet.

They weren't defeated by another race before, that's what matters.

No but from what I remember of the codex in the first game, (I could be wrong my memory is terrible) is it not insinuated that humanity wouldn't have fared well if we had went to full scale war with the Turians?

Edit:

It's your right not to be murdered, whether you lable it human rights or not is irrelivant. My point was that just because someone violated your human rights doesn't give you, or anyone else, the right to violate theirs.

The Drell thing wasn't ment as an insult, just that you have similar philosophies about freedom of mind from the body.

Also this is an off-topic discussion and my last response on the matter outwith the discussion of morality in Mass Effect.

Modifié par Davie McG, 16 août 2011 - 01:07 .

[ThePwener]

Davie McG wrote...

No but from what I remember of the codex in the first game, (I could be wrong my memory is terrible) is it not insinuated that humanity wouldn't have fared well if we had went to full scale war with the Turians?

It doesn't matter, we still kicked they're asses. Doesn't matter how or why.

[ThePwener]

Saphra Deden wrote...

ThePwener wrote...

Well that goes completaly against human nature.

I don't think so.

So curiosity isn't part of Human nature?

[ThePwener]

Saphra Deden wrote...

ThePwener wrote...

So curiosity isn't part of Human nature?

It is. You know what else? Tearing apart that relay and figuring out how it works would be us satisfying our curiosity.

...but I guess nobody is as smart as I am.

Well you fit the stereotype of dumb internet troll.

It took the Protheans 50,000 years + a secret base in Illos to figure out how they worked.

Great logic you have. Are you sure you've played ME? I doubt it.

[Someone With Mass]

legion999 wrote...
Yes attacking unknown species for breaking your laws is perfecty acceptable.
Also the rachni attacked as soon as they made contact something humans didn't do.

It is when they didn't even attempt to look around for any sign of life first before moving on to the next relay and just jumped away at random while hoping for the best.

[SandTrout]

Someone With Mass wrote...

ThePwener wrote...

Shows how evil the Turians really are with being cool on attacking a new alien race and then going to war with them when they fight back. That doesn't help your case.

Maybe they should've given the rachni a chance to attack them some more too.

Humanity was stupid enough to open up a relay they had no idea of where it was going or what was on the other side. That's why the turians attacked.

Stupidity is outdoing "evil" by quite a lot.

That is an inaccurate analysis of the actual danger regarding opening up relays. The stupidity is to think that not opening up your end of the relay because the other side is unmapped will stop an alien invasion. Since it's possible to open up an unmapped relay pair, that inherently means that your relay can be activated from the other side regardless of whatever laws the Citadel has in place. The Rachni could have opened up access to Citadel space just as easily from their side.

The best that leaving an unmapped relay pair deactivated from your side does is delay the inevitable, and probably by not all that long. If you make contact in a Relay system, and the inhabbitants are expansionistic like the Rachni, then they were very likely to be close to opening up the relay from their end as well. And since you don't know what's on the other side of the relay, the delay is not providing you time to prepare for it. You cannot prepare for an unknown.

The functional effect of the restriction on opening up unmapped realys is only the restriction of expansion by younger nations such as the Alliance, Elcor, Volus, and Hanar. The Big Three have more than enough colonies as it is, as well as the resources to actually scout out new Relays. The Relay restictions are only a means to kneecap the Council's competetors.

Modifié par SandTrout, 16 août 2011 - 01:12 .

[Davie McG]

Saphra Deden wrote...

ThePwener wrote...

So curiosity isn't part of Human nature?

It is. You know what else? Tearing apart that relay and figuring out how it works would be us satisfying our curiosity.

...but I guess nobody is as smart as I am.

To be fair I always wondered why they didn't reverse engineer it before activating it and ending up Lord knows where, could have fired us into an exploding star for all we knew. Would have been better to reverse engineer it then decide for ourselfs where we want to relay jump to.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

ThePwener wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

legion999 wrote...

Luck? Yeah the turian garrison just got hit by an asteroid or something. The fact remains though that humans defeated the turians, something that no race has done for centuries.

Arrogant, much? That was just a fraction of the turian fleet.

They weren't defeated by another race before, that's what matters.

"You humans don't prepare like turians,not as much discipline"

[ThePwener]

Someone With Mass wrote...

It is when they didn't even attempt to look around for any sign of life first before moving on to the next relay and just jumped away at random while hoping for the best.

Guess what? The aliens did exactly that before the Rachni. Humanity was knew, holding it over them is naive and close minded.