3618 réponses à ce sujet

[Yakko77]

rapscallioness wrote...

Even if it wasn't for Cerberus...idk if I woulda given it over. Especially after seeing what that lil bit of reaper tech did to kenson and that team. they thought they had everything under control. Then I walk in and see a bunch of ppl...talking to no one in particular. (lol as soon as she said "tidy up the lab" i was like, oh no, no...then seeing ppl talking to the air, I thought, "Crap!")

Possibly.  I think Object Rho was designed to indoctrinate.  Even a "dead" Reaper indoctrinated the Cerberus crew so maybe a dead Reaper "embryo" would have the same devastating effect.

[SandTrout]

The fact that I would be handing it over to Cerberus played a minimal role in my decision to blow up the base. If anything, they are the one group that is likely to do the hazardous research necessary to get any use out of the base, while the risks of it coming back to bite me in the butt remain, no matter weather it is a Cerberus research team of a Council team.

[Shimmer_Gloom]

SandTrout wrote...

The fact that I would be handing it over to Cerberus played a minimal role in my decision to blow up the base. If anything, they are the one group that is likely to do the hazardous research necessary to get any use out of the base, while the risks of it coming back to bite me in the butt remain, no matter weather it is a Cerberus research team of a Council team.

My point (which was overlooked as it was at the bottom of the page) exactly!

The Collector Base, hard won military asset though it is, is just not easily defensible.  And it would be a waste of lives to leave it so vulnerable to either the Reapers or the people who caused me to be a lone survivor in the first place.  I mean, how many defunct Cerberus bases to we run into in the two games?

I have never been to a Cerberus base that WASN'T crawling with hacked robots or pirates or rogue AI controled Geth...

Cerberus can't hold the base and they can't be trusted.  Scuttle the base and move on.  The war will suck up too much resources to have some cought up in protecting a base that helps our enemy more than it helps us.

Blow.  It.  Up.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Shimmer_Gloom wrote...
Blow.  It.  Up.

That should be your signiture

[Shimmer_Gloom]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Shimmer_Gloom wrote...
Blow.  It.  Up.

That should be your signiture

Thanks!  I think I will. 

[Soruyao]

The way I see it, there are two possiblities for how cerberus will act and 3 possibilities for what happens with the CB if it's left in their hands.

Either cerberus will betray me or they won't, and the 3 outcomes are that the base will be helpful in some way against the reapers, it won't be useful at all, or it will backfire horribly. (Indoctrination).

If the base is useful and they choose to betray me, they will at least try to take out the reapers first. (The enemy of my enemy.) TIM won't ally with the reapers. This much I think is clear. If I have to arm a potential enemy in order to fight them, I'm willing to deal with him and the consequences afterwards.

If the base is useful and he works with me, great.

If the base is useless and he betrays me, nothing is gained or lost and I know I at least took the chance.

If the base is useless and he works with me, no harm done, again.

If the base is harmful and he was going to betray me, he just blew a bunch of time and resources wasting his time with worthless technology. His best scientists are now working against him as zombified husks. He's going to be much less of a danger to me later since he wasted time and money he could have spent on something that would be more functional.

If the base is harmful and he was going to help me, then I lose a potential ally and create a hazard. This is the one losing condition, in my eyes.

In other words, it seems to me like the only time where I wouldn't want TIM to have the CB is if I think he WONT backstab me.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

I think people are grossly underestimating the threat Cerberus poses if they get that technology and turn on you/

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

I don't underestimate the threat Cerberus poses.

The problem I see with handing it over to either the Alliance (would have been my first choice); or the Citadel Council (2nd Choice) is that both of them would have said "We can't get to the Omega relay without provoking a major war because it's in the Terminus Systems." Thus none of the council would go for fear of being seen, nor would Admiral Hackett. So the choice ends up Cerberus or blow it up. Given Cerberus' track record with their "experiments" and willingness to perform lethal experiments on children (Jack and the rest), the possibility and likelihood that despite an EMP to kill the remaining collectors, the HR embryo may still be able to indoctrinate. It was relatively intact when it fell to the bottom of the chamber. Was it just "unconcious" or dead?

It also was pretty obvious that the plan of attack was for the Reapers to take earth, destroy the human's ability to fight, send in the Collector vessel to gather up the population of the planet (Zaeed: "they're going after earth.") and make one or more HRs using their indoctrinated slaves who would become the new "collectors".

It was never made clear if that was a former Prothean base or Reaper base IN THE GAMES -- I didn't read the comics nor do I intend to. But it apparently had been there a very very long time. And like I mentioned earlier, that leads me to the conclusion that the Reapers would want it back, and would have no trouble retaking it.

So you end up with a choice of: 1) Blowing it up; 2) turning it over to Cerberus and having the HR embryo indoctrinating Cerberus which would come back to bite you; 3) turning it over to Cerberus knowing that you'd been set up several times already by TIM. Who's to say this time was different? And with the last two choices it falls back into Reaper hands.

Miranda also gets into a spat with TIM if you took her on your assault team when he suggests keeping it. She wants it destroyed and will not change her mind about it. Apparently by this point she doesn't trust him either.

You also know you're going to need some big mass drivers not the Thanix Cannon to take out Reaper vessels.

Would you hand a resource like that over to Dr. Mengele?

Blow it up.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 31 juillet 2011 - 09:03 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

lmao Lotion actually looked up  fallacy.
:crying:so proud.

Cerberus has teh spies lotion,and TIM has the funds to buy hearts and minds,therefore a guerilla war would be plausable,especially since like the VC we have no clue where he and his organization are.

Save for their apperant Ferrari-like branding.

Spies cannot take over nations.
TIM cerantly doesn't have the funds for that (especialyo since any nation he would go up agaisnt has a thousand time more funds), and I didn't seem him buy and hearts and minds...


For a comparison in military power, funding and hardware:
If the Alliance is US, then Cerberus is Blackwater. And hte Asari are SUper-China, the Turains Super-Russia, etc..
You're telling me Blackwater can take over all the nations in the world?

[Lotion Soronarr]

Pulletlamer wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...


BWHAHAHAHAA...you forget a few things.

1) Sucesfull use of guerilal tactics is used on the home territory. And it's used when defending the country from ocupation. Guerilla tactic relies on support from the locals, intel and element of surprise.
Do you really see Cerberus using that tactic on a Asari planet? the locals won't help them. Tehy are REDICOLOUSLY outnumbered.

2) You don't use guerilla tactics to take over a nation, planet or a race. It doesn't work.

3) Cerberus has been oiperating for years. Teh galaxy is in no worse shape. In  fact, Cerberus is like an annoying fly, not a rela threat.



So...let me give you a challenge folks.

Present to me a scenario in which Cerberus takes over another race...Heck, let's be generous - Cerberus must take and hold a planet...Go.

Dude go look up the definition of guerrilla warfare at the wikipedia: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guerrilla_warfare

"Guerrilla warfare is a form of irregular warfare and refers to conflicts in which a small grup of combatants including, but not limited to, armed civilians (or "irregulars") use military tactics , such as ambushes, sabotage, raids, the element of surprise, and extraordinary mobility to harass a larger and less-mobile traditional army, or strike a vulnerable target, and withdraw almost immediately."

At any point does it say: "Guerrilla tactics must be with help from the locals and in your country or they are not valid!!!"

If you are a guerrilla fighter and go to fight on another country using guerrilla tactics you're still using them, they're not called something else. The only thing is that they "invented" guerrilla in a local country and they are best used in locations were the combatants know their enviroment, which is usually their native country.

No one is saying they should be used to take over nations. Still they have proven succesful at driving back entire organized armies and also remember Vietnam is a country.

I know what guerilla warfate and tactis are - but they are uselss to Cerberus.

Cerberus is so redicolously outnumbered, even the best guerilla tactics in the world can't help them. They are at best an annoyance.

And using vietnam as an example? That is one example with locals support and terrain working in vietkongs favor. cerberus would have no such luck.

[SandTrout]

At the end of ME2, I had absolutely no reason to believe that TIM would do anything to undermine my Shepard's efforts until after the Reapers were dealt with. We can fight over who controls the galaxy all we want once we can ensure that we will be around to fight over it.

If it turns out the TIM really does side with the Reapers in ME3, then my Shepard will at least have the IC relief of knowing that TIM wont have the CB tech to use against him, even if I am OOC irritated as all get-out at the writers.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

BWHAHAHAHAA...you forget a few things.

1) Sucesfull use of guerilal tactics is used on the home territory. And it's used when defending the country from ocupation. Guerilla tactic relies on support from the locals, intel and element of surprise.
Do you really see Cerberus using that tactic on a Asari planet? the locals won't help them. Tehy are REDICOLOUSLY outnumbered.

2) You don't use guerilla tactics to take over a nation, planet or a race. It doesn't work.

3) Cerberus has been oiperating for years. Teh galaxy is in no worse shape. In  fact, Cerberus is like an annoying fly, not a rela threat.

Gee, I wonder why that might be.

Could it be that Cerberus is just trying to inflict political damage and control which politicians that are in the chairs, so they can get a higher income and support and perhaps broaden their influence and increase their manpower and number of facilities through false propaganda?

Considering that Cerberus was a real threat to the galaxy (read: Almost made it so a rogue VI uploaded itself to the extranet, cloned rachni, trying to take control over the geth, develop super soldiers, etc, etc) on several occasions, they can do some serious damage if they want to, just not in a upfront sort of way.

If Cerberus were to ever do anything that would lead the rest of hte galaxy to classify them as a real threat, they would be wipsed out in a flash.
Cerberus surives because the Council races have more important things to deal with, and Cerberus never had their full attention. Do you reall that one comic in whihc Cerberus was severely..by just the turians?

Cerberus does work from the shadows, but by it's very natuire it can never be a superpower.
You cannot recruit massive armies when secrecy is paramount to your survival, and youre not even liked by the vast majority of the galaxy.

Cerberus could be a real nusiance, but that's pretty much it. It will never conquer any other race, no matter what repaer tech you give them.

If they od try something stupid, the galaxy will b***slap them, and there will be one less nuisance in the galaxy. Win-win.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...
I don't think he understands you don't have to destroy you enemy to win,unconventional warefare is the way wars are fought.

As the Russians showed us in Afghanistan you cant always beat your enemy with a giant hammer.
Buy out politicians>large scale military action.

You forget - the other side can also use unconventional warfare.. And it has FAR more resources and power at it's disposal.

Not to mention that that won't work against alien races.

Cerberus isn't Afghanistan. But if you want to follow your comparison, let's do it.
What did the al-quaida and such guerilla/tterrorist groups manage to achieve outside their country? Did they even REMOTELY achieved their objective of destroying the infidels?

So, I again repeat the challange - a plausible scenario for Cerberus taking over another planet.
If you people claim Cerberus can ensalve the galaxy, then let's see how...

[efrgfhnm_]

Seboist wrote...

efrgfhnm wrote...

Umm, I think keeping the Collector Base only makes sense from the POV of a Shepard supporting Cerberus, and clearly by now from a metagaming perspective or Paragon, it makes no sense. Even when you think about it hard you can tell it wouldn't make any sense, since the Collectors aren't going to be provided with any tech that could harm Reapers, since they would deem it unnecesary because we organics are so low and everything. The comparative weakness of the Collector ship and the Human Reaper also point to the base providing nothing of any value to the war effort
By the way, these wall of text arguments between are quite impressive, especially how they're so completely one-sided. I'm also getting the impression this topic is gonna get closed as well haha....

My canon Shepard wasn't pro-cerberus in my first playthrough of ME2 and she kept the base. Keeping the base makes perfect sense from a POV of someone who isn't motivated by self-rightous arrogance and blubbering idealism.

Ouch.. Why is the only reason to destroy the base "self-rightous arrogance and blubbering idealism"? Not trusting Ceberus, who do turn out to betray you later, how is that blubbering idealism?

[SandTrout]

Ouch.. Why is the only reason to destroy the base "self-rightous arrogance and blubbering idealism"? Not trusting Ceberus, who do turn out to betray you later, how is that blubbering idealism?

Because there is no indication that in ME2 that TIM is going to betray you in the near future. This is one of the reasons that the reveal that 40% of ME3's enemies were Cerberus caused such a shock in the community, one that we are still attempting to resolve.

Note that this is a morality discussion, so discussing facts that were not available in the context of the decision is poor form.

[Seboist]

SandTrout wrote...

Ouch.. Why is the only reason to destroy the base "self-rightous arrogance and blubbering idealism"? Not trusting Ceberus, who do turn out to betray you later, how is that blubbering idealism?

Because there is no indication that in ME2 that TIM is going to betray you in the near future. This is one of the reasons that the reveal that 40% of ME3's enemies were Cerberus caused such a shock in the community, one that we are still attempting to resolve.

Note that this is a morality discussion, so discussing facts that were not available in the context of the decision is poor form.

Another reason why it was shocking was that the big implication of Arrival was that the Batarians would be the Reaper proxy in ME3, either through indoctrination or willingly as a means to get revenge on humans/Shepard.

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]Phaedon wrote...

[quote]I'm talking about a kill ratio, and fail to see how what you said makes any difference to the argument.[/quote]
Your kill ratio is completely made up. And it never took 10 ships to take down a Reaper.[/quote]

Teh kill ration is jsut an example. It doesn't change the issue.

If I expends LESS resources and lives to take out a single repaer, then that IS making a difference.



[quote]
[quote]Even an improvement of 1% is STILL an improvement, therefore it is an ehancement.
You're looking at this in a binary 1/0 fashion.[/quote]
Improvement over what? Weapon tech? Yes. Your odds? Nope, not at all. Absolutely not. [/quote]

Absolutely yes. Odds change with the weapon tech.

If it takes 20 shots to take down a reaper shield instead of 50, then the odds have gone way up.




[quote]
[quote]And you know that how?
How about more powerfull kinetic barreier? Enhanced power generation? More efficient power conduits? Transistors? Emitters? Batteries?[/quote]
Easy. Did the Human Reaper have a kinetic barrier? Enhanced power? There's nothing wrong with the power generation in the ships, and it wouldn't matter even if the GARDIAN lasers used by the HR weren't underwhelming compared to an actual vessel. I sincerely hope that you are kidding by asking about human concepts later on.[/quote]

I'm not kidding. Since your understanding of technolgoiy is laughable.

Technology ins't a infelxible rod.
Technology (and knowledge) is like lego bricks - the more you have it, the more different things you can cobble together, even those that aren't immediately obvious.
As history has shown us, many inventions and devices made for one purpose, made advancement possible in may other areas. Tech designed for war found compeltely different use in every-day applications, and vice-versa.

You don't actualylhave to find a reper shield emmiter to find tech that can be used to improve your own shield emmiters. (and just because the HR  didnt' have a kinetic barrier active, doesn't mean it didn't have some components for it installed, or that they weren't stored somewhere in the base)


[quote]
[quote]You're so overlooking what technology encompases and how it is developed.....[/quote]
And you have yet to provide any useful technolodgy that could possibly come out of the base.[/quote]

I told you - pretty much ehanced everything. Shield, weapons, power transfer efficiency, alloys, construction ,etc, etc... The possiblities are endless.


[quote]
[quote]1) Gameplay and story segragation[/quote]
They appear in specific levels and in cutscenes which makes that irrelevant?[/quote]

It does. Because it's a game and some liberties are therefore taken. Remeber how rare mages are uspposed to be in the DA setting?
But even if we assume the game is 100% accurate in representing that, it's still just a few hunderd soldiers tops.


[quote]
[quote]2) They're still only troopers. A thousands of them. How does that compare to BILLIONS of tropps the other races have? and far more important, their NAVIES?[/quote]
Are you kidding? No, no one has billions of soldiers, not Cerberus, not anyone. And navies? I thought that you were talking about improvements and kill ratio? If you were right,  you would be supplying Cerberus with the ability to take down fleets multiple times its size, but cause no harm to a Reaper fleet. Fortunately, you are wrong.[/quote]

The galaxy has a sea of soldiers. Humans themselves have an army compromising 3% of ppopulation (IIRC) and that population is 12 billion.
Add to that number the turans, asari, krogan, salarians and all the others....then do the math.

And yes..Navy. Cerbers has no warships. Cruisers and Dreadnoughts are something only races have the infrastructure and reasources to build (and are allowed to)
What's Cerberus gonan do with a bunch of transport ships against hunderds of warships? Even with enhanced weaposn and shield and armor, they'd be blown away in seconds.

Again, look up LOGISTICS..



[quote]
[quote]Please, tell me how do you expect Cerberus to take over the galaxy? With what navy? With what troops? Who will supply them?
Cerberus couldn't take and hold a single planet, let alone anything else![/quote]

Oh, Cerberus can develop a small army easily, and a small navy with anything out of that base, and yet, it's a bit amusing if you don't mind me saying as to how much you have missed my point.

TIM wants to take over the galaxy, or assist the Alliance (which would be infiltrated by Cerberus no less) into taking over the galaxy. How else could the base secure human domination beyond the Reapers? By its selective use of course, fortunately, TIM will never have the chance to go ahead with his plans in ME3.

Oh, and there goes the army, and navy, and supply thing. They have already infiltrated the Alliance to some extent, and are currently conducting various political assisanations to secure a good political climate. If TIM plays his cards right, he wouldn't have needed to use a single trooper.[/quote]


1. Tim doesn't want to take over the galaxy.

2. The Alliance is pretty much a democracy. TIM can't go to war agaisnt the galaxy, even if he could somehow completely infliltrate the vast political sctruture, which in itself is silly. That apparatus is too large and it's not like that apparatus doesn't defned itself from infiiltration. And he'd never get the popular support to boot.
Cerberus does have some ties with the Alliance military-industrial complex tough..

But assuming Cerberus really coudl get popular support...then it's not really Cerberus anymore, it IS humantiy at that point.

3. And no, Cerberus can't whip up a fleet and army just like that, base or no base. Ships aren't built overnight and require a huge investment in resources. Army requires an upkeep.
Again logistics, logistics, logistics, logistics. There is absolutely, positively NO way Cerberus can whip up a navy or army that would present any credible threat to any nation.

4. How else to secure human domination? By making sure humanity is #1 economicly, politicly and military.
domination does not reaure war, or taking over or ensalving anyone. It happens if you have enough power automaticly. Every nation wants to dominate. It is natural.



[quote][quote]

1) Tim is ****** poor comparted to the nations he's supposed to assault.[/quote]
Terrorists don't need an army. Especially Cerberus.[/quote]

You can't take over a nation wihout an army.


[quote]
[quote]2) I recall no husks and scions production facilites on the base. [/quote]
OK, where do you recall any, then? Other than Dragon's Teeth laying around. Are you realizing what you are saying? The scions and the CB husks (Hint: Abominations, etc) are produced somewhere, by Collectors.[/quote]

I don't recall dragons teeth in the CB.
But let's for a second assume your'e right. It still changes nothing. Producing husks (whih are rather pathetic foot soldiers) requires resources and time. And it still only one base.
Other races


[quote]
[quote]3) You cannot build an army easily, especially not out of thin air. They need training, equipment, supplies. You also need a sufficient number of recruits - somthing Cerberus certnaly lacks, being that it's a shadowy organization and all. A massive army is also something you cannot hide.[/quote]
Cerberus doesn't lack recruitment candidates, they lost dozens in ME1 (an entire cell) and they continued functioning properly. 

And if you had actually played the game you wouldn't say that either. Cerberus openly approached multiple candidates.[/quote]

Those they screened before. Their recruitment pool is a lot smaller and the speed of recruitment much smaller, since tehy have to watch out for their secrecy. Normal army has a recruitign poster and commercials - and anyone can join.
Cerberus has to hide it's recruitment and pick candidates carefully (one snitch and your entire cell can be gone)
[/quote]



[quote][quote]
[quote]The bigges crutch of Cerberus is LOGISTICS. Look it up.[/quote]
They had no problem with spending billions of credits on the Lazarus Project itself, so try again. They have multiple succesful cover companies. If future economics work anything like today, then it's likely that some of them have more valuable assets than some nations. Look it up.[/quote]

Money is not logistics...
And while Cerberus has a lot of it, Lazarus and Normady 2 nearly drained them. It was a huuge investement on their part.[/quote]



[quote]
[quote]4) Only harmfull agaisnt your allies? BS. Cerberus is pho-human, not anti-alien. And ,ins't the Alliance your ally too? Doesn't Cerberus do everythnig to strengthen humanity?[/quote]
Two mistakes made by not watching the Destroy CB video as I said. We have already covered that. [/quote]

I wantechedhhte video. You covered nothing and are full of BS.


[quote][quote]
[quote]5) Cerberus has no navy. Space superiority. All the army in the world is useless if you can't deploy it.[/quote]
ME: Invasion says that that is BS.[/quote]

You call a transport ship a navy?
What happens when the alliance is on to Cerberus? When the Council races set up miitary patrols and checkpoints? How will you deliver your troops then?

Again, we're takign about Cerberius invading planets. It stands no chance to even get close, lt alone land and deply troops. Al ltheri ships would be blown out of hte sky.


[quote]
[quote]6) CB's location is known to Shep. And it's static base that doesn't move. Any action agasint the allies by TIM and he'll have a fleet knocking on the front door, blowing it to smitherenes.[/quote]
Blowing what? Do you think that the equipment will stay there? Are you kidding? Oh yeah, you guys, let's blow up the empty base.[/quote]

Do you think it can be moved easily..or at all? The base is several kilometers in length. It's choke full of equipment.





[quote]
[quote]if they help defeat the reapers, would they still be a wanted organization?[/quote]
At no point will a democratic society praise child torturers, soldier killers and terrorists that's one of the things I am certain.[/quote]

Ever hear of a pardon?



[quote]
[quote]Do you know what domination means? Open the friggin dictionary!!!!
It's NOT what you think it is.[/quote]
Uh, I hate to break it to you, but:
[quote]domination [ˌdɒmɪˈneɪʃən]n1. the act of dominating or state of being dominated2. authority; rule; control[/quote]
And I am sure that the CB would allow for peaceful domination, sure.


It very well could. Again, you misundertant what domination is. The US is a a dominant force in the world today. I dont' see slave collars on me..do you?

[quote]Where the hell did you get the insane idea that Cerberus wishes to kill off alien races? From Miranda? Jacob? Kelly? Nope, everything they say indicates the opposite.[/quote]
Selected operatives to make Shepard feel comfortable, all of which praise you for destroying the base.

Very bad Bio wariting b.t.w.
And if that's your logic, I'll just claim that those are precisely your average Cerberus operatives. PROVE ME WRONG.


[quote]TIM? He deosn't say anything like that.[/quote]
Uh-huh, no matter the previous 5 posts I wasted explaining this. I am sure that after ensuring peaceful domination against the Reapers, he will also go ahead and ensure peaceful domination against everyone else. 

Reapers and beyond....what is the beyond? How do you know there aren't other dangers in the galaxy, even worse than the reapers?
And again, domination doesn't mean that everyone else is your salve or dead.








[quote]Those ships are armed with standard wepons. Sovreign was attacked by a bunch of cruisers b.t.w.. The only DN, the Destiny Ascension, was out of battle.[/quote]
Nope.

Sovereign was attacked "by the entire Arcturus Fleet" it has been said that the only reason that dreadnaughts didn't make it in-game was because of technical difficulties, but story-wise, multiple dreadnaughts attacked Sovereign.


Sauce that the Arcturus fleet even HAS dreadnoughts. Humans have very few DN's as far as I recall....
And it still changes nothing.


[quote]Not to metnion that the derelict reaper was hit with a MASS DRIVER. the same weapon every other ship uses. Only a lot bigger. Same principle. Death by a massive blow, or death from a thousand cuts - doesn't matter if youre dead.[/quote]
Mass WHAT?

If you are talking about mass accelerated projectile, I am not quite sure how to explain that to you... but I already di d several posts ago.

You didnt..

[quote]And no, there is no direct correlation between Shepaprd and shields dropping.[/quote]
Watch the actual cutscene before you make idiotic comments like this.

No direct correleation.




[quote]If Sovereign lost his shields due to loosing control of an avatar, then the repaers are the most pitiful opponent in history.

You're telling me thrri super-huge and super-advanced minds flipped out over that? My 10-year old PC could handle multi-tasking better![/quote]
Yes, I am sure that your 10-year-old PC can wirelessly command an a hybrid semi-organic structure. Watch the video. 


I have and I'm not convinced. Youre proof is not proof, it's specualtion.



[quote]And I have provided why you're incorrect.
And what's with all teh TIM hate? My boy, if your'e tring to convince me you're unbiased - YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG.[/quote]
TIM would kill millions of aliens to ensure human dominance. And before you claim to know what dominance means, tell us again, about how TIM would ensure human dominance against the Reapers.

Rubbish, rubbish, rubbish. Such baseless claims I have not seen for ages.
Do you know how one ensures dominance? BY BEING STORNGER THAN THE OTEHR GUY! Since when does that automaticly imply killign the other guy?



[quote]Useless if you can't hurth them. Do they even have a homeworld? Would they even care?[/quote]
They started out of somewhere. And they need to recharge energy and resources after every cycle. Not going to work if you disable the portal and destroy their homeworld.

They're going to use your own captured bases and resources to repair and re-chanrge. Tehy dont' have to come back. And while you're fleet are wasting their time prancing about in vacuum, the reapers will sterilize your worlds.
Not to mention that dark space is jsut that..dark space.. sapce between galaxies. There's nothing there. the reapers chill there because nobody will find them there.


[quote]Useless. By your own argument, you can't hurt them.[/quote]
Reading a small sentence can't be that hard.

There are many ideas as to how to create superweapons. The allies would have their own.

If you can create super-weapons with normal tech, then you can create EVEN BETTER super-weapons with reaper tech. Hence, researching the CB is not useless.



[quote]They do very dangerous and risky reasearch. If you have proof other scientist would do better....please, forward it.[/quote]
Are you serious? I just mentioned an example of a doctor, for which it is very arguable whether he graduated elementary school or not.
Scientists that can do better? Dangerous and risky research? When the hell was the same time something similar happenned with a governmental agency in human history?

When did you personally go into the lab to clear the sitation for any governmental agency?
The enly reason you know about Cerberus lab accidents is because you went into those labs.
I dont' think the governmental agencies would want you in their labs.
And history is full of lab mishaps....


[quote]adn why not? Because tehy would shoot down your bomb.[/quote]
Look up the word "undectable" please, which I used in my argument, or at least tell me this is a joke.

How do you know it's even feasable, or that it's really undetectable by the reapers?

[quote]Because their armor could handle it. Becasue they are invulneralbe to anyting except to a weapon I deem should hurt them. (don't blame me, just following your logic here)[/quote]
Aha! And now I know you have never either played the games properly or listened to what I said.
The shields of Sovereign withstanded the combined attacks of two fleets, just try to remember how quickly the armor went down.

A nuke beneath the shields would do short work of any Reaper armor.

The shield collapsed under the barrage. Interstingly enough, if you talk to Hackett about it, he at no point even hints that their weapons were completely ineffective - no does he mention that without Sheppard, they would have never been able to take down Sovereign.
The armor too took a beating from the entire fleet. The hit from the normandy and the bombers was the "Coup De grace"



[quote]And you honestly think they'd be stupid enough to bite? That it would have any effect at all? That they have any need at ALL to even use avatars, once they are already there, wrecking your **** in person?[/quote]
You obviously don't know what you are talking about.

Even if they could idividually block every single signal and not turn down their communications systems completely (which would be a disaster for them), the action of having to block every single spam signal counts as a "spam" attack. 

They don't have to block anything..you assuem you can force them to even pay attention to your singnals.
And your spam attack? at best it will annoy them...good work, you just pissed them off even more....


[quote]TIM planned to save humanity with the CB. Thus it must have some base?
Silly argument. [/quote]

Which is why I actually investigated the possibility of saving the base. And declined it, due to the lack of any useful technolodgy.
I could do the same with the SB tech,

Then you did a p** poor investigaion.



[quote]Not to mention that you 'd first have to find it and then research it..whatever it is. Which would cost you a lot mor time than jsut researching the CB..it's already there, you found it. no time wasted searching.
Adn it would still have better tech...[/quote]

Except that it is likely that the SB has already found it. And no, I wouldn't spend any time, Shepard is a soldier, don't be silly. And no, Prothean tech is much less complicated than Reaper one.

Sez who? And how does that trump over reaper tech being superior?


[quote]Dear Lord...the ignorance is HURTING ME!

How the hell do you come to the conclusio nthere tehre is no reaper tech in the CB, when there is a reaper being built there? What's it being built with? Vacuum?[/quote]
Except that you DON'T have a Reaper there. You have a Reaper lavra without any main gun, barrier or other protection.

Who's to say that the gun and barrier weren't supposed ot be installed later? Who's to say they aren't in the base storae somewhere, sjut waiting? And if it didn't have any protection, then why can you only hurt it by shooting at a specific spot?
You DO have a reaper..reaper larva is still a reaper. TI still has reper tech in it.

[quote]How do you build repear tech without reaper tech???? Please, answer me this logic bomb![/quote]
More like reading comprehension failure "The "Reaper tech" hardly existed in the CB, looking at the state of the HR. That doesn't offer anything useful." all the Reaper tech that existed was for turning humans into goo and creating a Reaper lavra that is useless at that state, of course.

Nononononononononono.
Utterly wrong.
How the hell do you come to the conclusion that it doesn't offer anything usefull?? It's jsut...incomprehensible.

The mechanical "frame" of the HR was built on that base. Al lthe toehr extras too. Teh gun it shoots at you.. Teh sensory units.. al lthe mechanical bits and pieces that make it move around and do stuff - all of those were built at hte bese - tehy didn't jsut spring full formed out of vacuum.
The idea that all of the reaper tech in the CB was jsut for making goo is redicolous. Utterly rediclous.




[quote]Why do you assume they have?
And why do you assume tehy have better mass relay manipulation tech then the Reapers, the reace that BUILT THEM????[/quote]
...because manipulating the mass relays, not getting to their destination, and shooting objects to anyone trying to pass the mass relays is absolutely counter-productive to their goal, which is to get past the mass relays?

wat?
I dont' understand your point here at all...
[/quote]

[Lotion Soronarr]

Phaedon wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Respect for you? Gone..A shame man. I used to think you were reasonable. Now I see I was wrong.

Let me point yout your fallacy that size = technology. That bigger things MUST be stuffed with better tech. Which is totally absured and everyone knows it.

Oh God, please stop.

You are claiming than an incomplete Reaper has more tech than a complete one. Start making some sense.

That complte reaper was blown to bits. Only a small part of it was actually ever salvaged.

Again. B2 bomber. WW2 cruiser. Which is bigger?... now which has better tech in it?
I'm waiting....

And again, your'e so overlookign what technology is all about and how it develops. Technology is not jsut a gun or armor. There's a lot more to it that influences every part of the ship. not to emtnion technology is nota straight part. It has multi-use and is inter-connected.

Which is? And what part of it is useful to us? How does it defeat the Reapers in any way?

That remains to be seen. You're asking me to give you a compelte rundown of everythnig that can be made usign repaer tech. It's impoosibel to give it. There's too many posisiblties.

As I said befre..It's like LEGO bricks. You have a bunch and I add a bunch of new ones. Ask me what I can make out of it....

A more advanced capacitor doesn't sound as exciting as a new gun, but that same capacitor CAN be used to make several other enhancements..INCLUDING a abetter gun. Capiche?

...capacitators have nothing to do with making guns or making better guns. 

They simply store energy, which may then be used for a weapon.

I'll go ahead and state this as simply as I can. If, of all places, the central capacitator was placed in the lavra for some reason that makes no sense, the Human Reaper obviously couldn't use it, or it wasn't that impressive, because the directed ENERGY weapon that he used was comparable to three occuli together. Not good for a cruiser or a frigate, let alone a dreadnaught.

:blink: at underlined.

Why do you evne assume that theorethical capacitor would serve in the gun in the HR?

Again, your reply just proves to me you have 0 understanding of how technolgoy works and 0 undersanding on the principles behind it.

[Lotion Soronarr]

AlanC9 wrote...
Dude, he's got a point. A whole row of smileys looks juvenile. Unless you actually are only 12 or so, this isn't a habit you want to keep.

Only posers are so obsessed with their looks and what others think of them.

Besides, smileys lighten the mood, and can serve to distinguish the tone (something text along cannot accurately transfer)

[Lotion Soronarr]

Shimmer_Gloom wrote...

SandTrout wrote...

The fact that I would be handing it over to Cerberus played a minimal role in my decision to blow up the base. If anything, they are the one group that is likely to do the hazardous research necessary to get any use out of the base, while the risks of it coming back to bite me in the butt remain, no matter weather it is a Cerberus research team of a Council team.

My point (which was overlooked as it was at the bottom of the page) exactly!

The Collector Base, hard won military asset though it is, is just not easily defensible.  And it would be a waste of lives to leave it so vulnerable to either the Reapers or the people who caused me to be a lone survivor in the first place.  I mean, how many defunct Cerberus bases to we run into in the two games?

I have never been to a Cerberus base that WASN'T crawling with hacked robots or pirates or rogue AI controled Geth...

Cerberus can't hold the base and they can't be trusted.  Scuttle the base and move on.  The war will suck up too much resources to have some cought up in protecting a base that helps our enemy more than it helps us.

Blow.  It.  Up.

Because that's the ONLY kind of Cerberus bases you've been to... TIM wasn't callign you to clear a mess in a perfectly functioning Cerberus base...what would be the point of calling you there?


To me, repears re-taking the base is a non-issue. Of what use will it be to them? If oyu have a thousand xenocidal super warship blowing your s** up, that base is not even worth considering. What if they re-take it? It doesn't help them really..in fact, them re*derecting resources to take it back help me, as it meas less reapers attacking populated planets.

Not to mentiont that there's nothing stopping you from SCUTTLING IT AT ANY TIME YOU WISH.
Wouldn't it be fun for the reaper to jump in to the core, apporach the base to re-take it, as and they extend their grubby metalic tentacles...*BOOOOM*

And I laugh merrily, as I grabed all the reasearch I could out of the base untill that point and took away their resource at the same time

[Gabey5]

cerberus is full of morons, the alliance is full of morons... they would have been indoctrinated

it is not even up for debate....

shepard is not keeping the base.. that option hands it over to TIM....

Modifié par Gabey5, 31 juillet 2011 - 10:56 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Miranda also gets into a spat with TIM if you took her on your assault team when he suggests keeping it. She wants it destroyed and will not change her mind about it. Apparently by this point she doesn't trust him either.

Don't forget Mioranada is a tube baby, and a base is full of tubes. women's got issues.

Would you hand a resource like that over to Dr. Mengele?

That would depend if Dr. Mendele cna help me save the world....

But TIM sin't Dr. Mendele. Really, the biggest problem here is people getting a cometpely wrong image of TIM and cerberus. Probably the same people who jumped on Ashley as being a xenophobe....

[xXljoshlXx]

Which do you think is more amoral destroying the heretics or rewriting them?

[Lotion Soronarr]

efrgfhnm wrote...

Ouch.. Why is the only reason to destroy the base "self-rightous arrogance and blubbering idealism"? Not trusting Ceberus, who do turn out to betray you later, how is that blubbering idealism?

If you doom the galaxy because of you inabiltiy to see past trust issues and think of the greater needs of the galaxy.. how isn't that blubbering idealism? Trust of Cerberus realyl should be irrelevant to the base decision - onyl hte survival of hte galaxy should matter.
Frak morality. There will be plenty of time to debate morality AFTER you survive. When you're dead you won't get the chance. And while choosing to die over doing something immorial is all well and fine when you're choosing for youself - making that choice for an entire race (or in this cale, galaxy) is not.



Besdies, if you save the base, you can always come back and undo that decision. It will still be there in a few days.
Take a walk, talk to people, take your time to think it over.

If you blow it up, you really can't go back and undo that, if you later decde you made a wrong choice.

Any irreversable desision should not be made lightly.

[Lotion Soronarr]

xXljoshlXx wrote...

Which do you think is more amoral destroying the heretics or rewriting them?

that would kinda depend if you consider the geth to be truly sentient in the first place....


And since we're talking about choices.



If you choose to blow up the base...how do you jsutify saving the Rachnii queen? Teh rachnii are a even greater threat to the gaalxy if tehy double-cross you than Cerberus ever will be.