3618 réponses à ce sujet

[Davie McG]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

HomelessGal wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...
Zulu's explanation of the Cerberus army makes the most sense,so much so that it is hard to debate,but I'm sure y'all will try.

What was it, again? That an irrelevant political party will suddenly turn out to be a major military power?

This is probably not gonna work as intended.

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

ddv.rsa wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

ddv.rsa wrote...

In ME3 they seem to be openly warring against the Alliance.

Where?

It
looks that way. The Alliance is fighting the Reapers, and Cerberus is
allied with the Reapers (at least Cerberus troops have been seen
supporting a Reaper). I take that to mean they're allied against the
Alliance.

BW have also stated Cerberus troops make up 40% of the
enemies you'll face, with husks making up another large chunk. With
them as the main organic enemy I'm will to venture they're against  the
Alliance.

And I'm willing to venture to suggest that the
army they've mustered overnight is mainly composed of the Alliance
reservists, indoctrinated - in the actual sense of the word - by the
Terra Firma party activists.

What if TIM had actually been building that army for year in...wait for it...secret...bum bum bum

That's
exactly what I mean. Former Alliance servicemen, mobilized by the Terra
Firma (a political party in the Alliance) = TIM's army built in secret.

HA it worked.

And it only took a ton of reading.

Well. That actually makes sense, I was expecting it to be mince, but it is a logical explanation and isn't too far fetched. Colour me surprised.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Seboist wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Eh, I kind of feel that cloning just robs Cerberus of any real depth. We might as well just be killing geth.

Certainly, along with "indoctrination" aka nanomachines aka dracula's magic.

Well that has been a problem in Mass Effect from the very beginning (I'd arguee, that's a problem Bioware suffers from in general). We rarely fight "human" opponents with reasonable goals. You might argue the heretics were that, but they were explained in ME2 and not 1.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

@McG,yeah that is pretty much how I felt.

[Davie McG]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Eh, I kind of feel that cloning just robs Cerberus of any real depth. We might as well just be killing geth.

Certainly, along with "indoctrination" aka nanomachines aka dracula's magic.

Well that has been a problem in Mass Effect from the very beginning (I'd arguee, that's a problem Bioware suffers from in general). We rarely fight "human" opponents with reasonable goals. You might argue the heretics were that, but they were explained in ME2 and not 1.

I'd say the collectors fit the bill.

Although from the first game your right, it was pretty much evil clones and evil robots and evil cerberus.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Davie McG wrote...
I'd say the collectors fit the bill.

Although from the first game your right, it was pretty much evil clones and evil robots and evil cerberus.

Collectors were worse imo. Their origin was tragic, but at the end of the day, you are killing mindless slaves that might as well be robots.

At least in ME1, you saw the Geth actually developping a religion of sorts.

[Davie McG]

I suppose, to be honest I was a bit disappointed with the fate of the Protheans. I wanted to fight a massive Prothean reaper, but not before talking to it first.

Edit: Typo.

Modifié par Davie McG, 16 août 2011 - 04:41 .

[Seboist]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Eh, I kind of feel that cloning just robs Cerberus of any real depth. We might as well just be killing geth.

Certainly, along with "indoctrination" aka nanomachines aka dracula's magic.

Well that has been a problem in Mass Effect from the very beginning (I'd arguee, that's a problem Bioware suffers from in general). We rarely fight "human" opponents with reasonable goals. You might argue the heretics were that, but they were explained in ME2 and not 1.

True, the only exception to the rule of fighting mindless enemies were the Feros colonists in ME1. All the rest like the Geth,Mercs,Collectors,Cerberus,etc were no different than fighting Loki mechs to me.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Seboist wrote...
True, the only exception to the rule of fighting mindless enemies were the Feros colonists in ME1. All the rest like the Geth,Mercs,Collectors,Cerberus,etc were no different than fighting Loki mechs to me.

ME1 also had the Biotic terrorists, Major Kyle and interesting sidequests like that. Pitty they were just sidequests.

[Seboist]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Seboist wrote...
True, the only exception to the rule of fighting mindless enemies were the Feros colonists in ME1. All the rest like the Geth,Mercs,Collectors,Cerberus,etc were no different than fighting Loki mechs to me.

ME1 also had the Biotic terrorists, Major Kyle and interesting sidequests like that. Pitty they were just sidequests.

It's a damn shame the Major Kyle sidequest doesn't import. It would have interesting to see the long term impact of a Ruthless Shepard killing his/her former CO.

Playing "Space Gestapo" in missions like that were loads of fun. I actually prefered working for Hackett more than I did the council and doing missions like that over ones related to the boring Reapers.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Seboist wrote...
True, the only exception to the rule of fighting mindless enemies were the Feros colonists in ME1. All the rest like the Geth,Mercs,Collectors,Cerberus,etc were no different than fighting Loki mechs to me.

RIGHTEOUS BUMP!

Hopefully the Cerb guys prove to be more than just cool(er) looking blue suns.

Modifié par Humanoid_Typhoon, 16 août 2011 - 06:37 .

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

HomelessGal wrote...

Well, they can (unwillingly) provide us with a big stompy mecha. They're already way cooler than the Blue Suns.

I just know I'm gonna find a way to fail in that mech,I'll be too busy trying to be Kamina and punching people with it,instead of not getting shot.
"WHOTHEHELLDOYOUTHINKIAMPUNCH!"

[Lotion Soronarr]

SandTrout wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I never undersand why people define themselves as "paragon" or "renegade". It's very...limited and shoe-horned...artificial you might say.

It's just a means of quickly communicating the majority of choices that they've made in game. I, for instance, don't really hold myself to being a paragon, even though my personal canon falls into that category.

I think that its funny that a lot of people on the boards not familiar with me guess that I'm a Renegade because I present logical arguments, though. I think it says a lot about them.

Mose peopel guess I'm a renegade too. In reality, most of my choices in the game have been paragon. I usally play paladins...the reasonable good kind, not the lawfull stupid.

[Lotion Soronarr]

alperez wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

alperez wrote...

So the 3 largest races in the galaxy, accept humanity's role in the galaxy, put them on an equal footing with themselves but are in fact denying human rights.

They have never put us on equal footing.

So accepting us onto the council, giving us the same voice they themselves have isn't putting us on an equal footing with them, what exactly did you want them to do, give us the cool seat aswell.

That's like saying that Croatia or Slovenia have the same power and influence and footing as other nations in the EU...like let's say France or GB. Which is rubbish.

Equal on paper, and equal in reality are two different tihngs. In politics, there's no perfect balance or equality. Never was and never will be.

[Lotion Soronarr]

alperez wrote...
Where's your proof that they will let earth burn?

You can suspect they will, but to state it as a fact to prove they're not putting us on equal footing is a arguing an unknown.

We're arguing the most probable and reasonable here.

Maybe you think alien politicians are so better than ours? Maybe you think politics works differently in the ME universe, as it's a happly place where everyone is holdin hands and singing.

Most of us like to believe what we know from real-life: that politics is a dirty buiness and every is looking out for number 1. Lacking proof of the contrary, the "how it is in the real world" is the default.

[Lotion Soronarr]

SandTrout wrote...

For the discussions of Human Rights in the context of Mass Effect, Cerberus's goal is to first and foremost ensure 1 critical Human Right which supercedes all others: The right of survival. Human Rights cannot exist without humans, and we cannot control any rights if we are subservient to an alien power.

The morally questionable part is the fact that Cerberus violates the rights of individuals on a limited scale in order to protect the rights of the species as a whole. This is not an idea that I agree with, but I do understand it.

I would not trust TIM if he were to take a position of overt power, but in the face of being eradicated by an alien power, almost anything can be theoretically justified. Survival trumps all other priorities.

as I've bee saying from the begining.

Teh GODZILLA TRESHOLD
tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GodzillaThreshold

[Lotion Soronarr]

Someone With Mass wrote...

ThePwener wrote...
*facepalm*

Yeah, let's not open up relays and stay in the same systems forever. Im sure that's what everyone does.

Unless humanity was dying out because of low resources or polluted planets, I don't give a damn about what the "cool" kids were doing. Opening uncharted territory for absolutely no good reason is just idiotic.

Exploration and expansions are a damn good reason.

[alperez]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...


That's like saying that Croatia or Slovenia have the same power and influence and footing as other nations in the EU...like let's say France or GB. Which is rubbish.

Equal on paper, and equal in reality are two different tihngs. In politics, there's no perfect balance or equality. Never was and never will be.

Actually its nothing like that, the eu puts restricitions on new members and size and economy matter in terms of strength of position in the eu.

The council is made up of the 3 largest and most advanced races and each of these have an equal say in things, humanity was made a fourth and also has an equal say which is completely the opposite of what your trying to suggest.

The analogy that most fits the council would perhaps be the security council of the un, where five permanent members have a larger say then the non permanent members, but even in this analogy the point your trying to make would be wrong, since humanity is now one of the permanent members of the council.

[alperez]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...


We're arguing the most probable and reasonable here.

Maybe you think alien politicians are so better than ours? Maybe you think politics works differently in the ME universe, as it's a happly place where everyone is holdin hands and singing.

Most of us like to believe what we know from real-life: that politics is a dirty buiness and every is looking out for number 1. Lacking proof of the contrary, the "how it is in the real world" is the default.

Actually we were arguing that this is what would happen, when we have no evidence it would be the case, as for it being the most proable and reasonable, there is nothing to back up that argument whatsoever.

We can suspect that in the situation the other races would do a certain thing, but since we can't provide either the example that proves they would or the evidence that shows they would, anything else is just speculation based on a flawed premise.

Politics does work differently in the ME universe, the whole political structure is done differently, yes there are similarities but its not an exact replica, so saying that because politicians work this way in real life it somehow means they work the same in mass effect is stretching the truth to suit a pov.

While the council have been shown to be idiots or to be slow to react or unwilling to accept certain things, thus far they haven't been shown to put there own races above everyone elses, instead they've been shown to use consensus as the main factor in the judgements they make, so suggesting they would suddenly do otherwise without the evidence to back it up and then to use the argument that this is how the real world acts is a flawed argument imo.

[Lotion Soronarr]

alperez wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...


That's like saying that Croatia or Slovenia have the same power and influence and footing as other nations in the EU...like let's say France or GB. Which is rubbish.

Equal on paper, and equal in reality are two different tihngs. In politics, there's no perfect balance or equality. Never was and never will be.

Actually its nothing like that, the eu puts restricitions on new members and size and economy matter in terms of strength of position in the eu.

LOL..shows how much you know about politics. You'e basicly acknolwedging that the most powerfull onse are assured to remain the most powerfull ones withtin that system.

The council is made up of the 3 largest and most advanced races and each of these have an equal say in things, humanity was made a fourth and also has an equal say which is completely the opposite of what your trying to suggest.

The analogy that most fits the council would perhaps be the security council of the un, where five permanent members have a larger say then the non permanent members, but even in this analogy the point your trying to make would be wrong, since humanity is now one of the permanent members of the council

There is no such things as "equl say". If you have more ships, a better economy and a better politicla position, you have more pull, regardless how one looks on paper. You cna effectivley bully/blackmail things into your favor. taht's how things work.
On the surface it may look clean and all...but under the table it's another matter compeltely.

[alperez]

HomelessGal wrote...

I think it would be fair to say that the human councilor is "least among equals" in the Council, though.

Depends on what way you mean it, if you mean we have less of a say, then i disagree, simply because its not shown to be the case as of yet, but in terms of being last in then we're dealing with already built up relationships between the other council members who've probably worked together for a long time, so in that sense we are least amongst equals since we've yet to build those relationships.

[Lotion Soronarr]

alperez wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...


We're arguing the most probable and reasonable here.

Maybe you think alien politicians are so better than ours? Maybe you think politics works differently in the ME universe, as it's a happly place where everyone is holdin hands and singing.

Most of us like to believe what we know from real-life: that politics is a dirty buiness and every is looking out for number 1. Lacking proof of the contrary, the "how it is in the real world" is the default.

Actually we were arguing that this is what would happen, when we have no evidence it would be the case, as for it being the most proable and reasonable, there is nothing to back up that argument whatsoever.

We can suspect that in the situation the other races would do a certain thing, but since we can't provide either the example that proves they would or the evidence that shows they would, anything else is just speculation based on a flawed premise.

Politics does work differently in the ME universe, the whole political structure is done differently, yes there are similarities but its not an exact replica, so saying that because politicians work this way in real life it somehow means they work the same in mass effect is stretching the truth to suit a pov.

While the council have been shown to be idiots or to be slow to react or unwilling to accept certain things, thus far they haven't been shown to put there own races above everyone elses, instead they've been shown to use consensus as the main factor in the judgements they make, so suggesting they would suddenly do otherwise without the evidence to back it up and then to use the argument that this is how the real world acts is a flawed argument imo.

I dissagree. On everything you said there.

[alperez]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...


LOL..shows how much you know about politics. You'e basicly acknolwedging that the most powerfull onse are assured to remain the most powerfull ones withtin that system.

I was explaining how the eu handles the membership of new members and places restrictions on those new members, something that is in fact the case, so i think my understanding of politics in this case is perhaps better than yours.

In terms of your analogy that humanity in mass effect was the same as croatia and slovenia in the eu, i was pointing out the reason why the analogy is flawed, which is simply this, where in mass effect does it show these restricitions being placed upon humanity?

There is no such things as "equl say". If you have more ships, a better economy and a better politicla position, you have more pull, regardless how one looks on paper. You cna effectivley bully/blackmail things into your favor. taht's how things work.
On the surface it may look clean and all...but under the table it's another matter compeltely.

In a council where choices are made up by consensus then each member has exactly the same say, so show me where in mass effect its shown that this isn't how the council works?

Real world politics or how things are done in reality only prove your point if you can show the example in mass effect
that correlates to that point, something that isn't the case.

[alperez]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I dissagree. On everything you said there.

You may well and your perfectly entitled to as am i to disagree with your disagreement.