3618 réponses à ce sujet

[SandTrout]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

I do congratulate you all for making it to 120+ pages of constructive discourse about this topic. Well done.

You over estimate us, the're only about maybe 10 pages out of that 120 that is constructive. And that's being generous.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

SandTrout wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

I do congratulate you all for making it to 120+ pages of constructive discourse about this topic. Well done.

You over estimate us, the're only about maybe 10 pages out of that 120 that is constructive. And that's being generous.

Pretty sure after the first 5 it all turned to gibbereish,probably why most newcomers can only read til the 5th page.

Modifié par Humanoid_Typhoon, 17 août 2011 - 08:39 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

The moral dilemma: the choice of two things happening, the result of which both are bad.

1) blow up the base -- lose the potential tech leap.

2) keep the base but give it to Cerberus -- you know Mr. Huskmaker, and torturer of children to unlock biotic potential in humans, not taken forcefully, but purchased from Batarian slavers, which apparently makes it okay. But Mr. Huskmaker says that he didn't know the extent of what they were doing at Pragia and when he found out, ordered it shutdown. Yet he did know what they were doing on Aite. And on the derelict reaper.

I really wish there had been a third,fourth, and fifth choice. "EDI! Open a comm channel to {Ambassador (Anderson or Udina) on the Citadel or the Citadel Council or Admiral Hackett}. {contact name} I'm on the collector base. They were making a reaper here. Do you want to purge the base or should I blow it? You have 15 seconds to decide."

Granted until Overlord DLC was released we didn't know about that. Once can almost deduce that the idea was to save the base, build a reaper without the goop and use a VI as in Overlord to run it instead of an organic goop + electronics AI. The organic goop contained the genetic memory of the species -- this and using the DNA to move an otherwise VI over into true AI. But by putting a live human as the brain of the reaper changes that, even though it's horrible for the human.

We don't know if the race that created the Reapers tried this first with their own species. I would think they did and it failed, so they went with the goop and lost control of it.

Since you didn't have those other three choices, it turns out to be a choice of whether you trust TIM and Cerberus or not. Given that he's supposedly the head of Cerberus, do you think he's the last best hope for humanity? He'd gladly sacrifice millions to achieve his goals so long as he remains on the top. He's ruthless.

Then we are fighting a ruthless opponent at the same time.

So do you really trust Cerberus to do the right thing? I don't have a problem with the human dominance in the galaxy, although I don't suppose my Shep and Liara talk about that too much over dinner. It's the human dominance in the galaxy and beyond. It's the beyond that indicates a madness.

I think TIM is a psychopath. He maintains a very calm exterior, and is constantly calculating all the risks as they would pertain to him. His actions throughout ME2 indicate this. The lack of emotion, and over calmness of his voice. Sheen did well here. Not until the end after you blow the base does TIM show anything resembling real anger. Up until then it has been more annoyance.

Then the Reapers are sentient machines that operate on logic, with emotion derived from their DNA components. Their plans are that as organics find reaper "artifacts" that they will incorporate that technology into their own.

By blowing the base Shepard throws another monkeywrench into their plan. Yet it also destroys the evidence of the reapers. I could visualize another conversation with the council.

Turian:"You say you found a derelict Reaper at Klengadon, but you destroyed it? Then you blew up the Collector base? So you still have no evidence for their existance? They are still a myth, and you are trying my patience."

Samara: "I vouch for Shepard. Everything she said is true."

Asari Counselor: "Samara is a Justicar. That's good enough for me."

It boils down to whether or not you trust a psychopath with the base. I don't.

[Arijharn]

alperez wrote...

I was not aware of that so thanks for pointing it out, just one question though, You say increased access after the council blocked the motion for a team, is it shown anywhere that the access we already have is less than the other members and thats why we're looking for increased access, or could it be that the access we're looking for is more than what everyone else has?

Not disputing your point, just trying to clarify.

Truthfully, I'm not sure that it's less or more in comparison to other species, but it is clearly insufficient. This also goes hand in hand with when Anderson says that he feels like he's just smacking his head up against a wall, and even how casually the other Councillor's start mentioning capital punishment in regards to Shephard's 'ties' with the human representative (or his top advisor) just standing there.

[Arijharn]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

The moral dilemma: the choice of two things happening, the result of which both are bad.

1) blow up the base -- lose the potential tech leap.

2) keep the base but give it to Cerberus -- you know Mr. Huskmaker, and torturer of children to unlock biotic potential in humans, not taken forcefully, but purchased from Batarian slavers, which apparently makes it okay. But Mr. Huskmaker says that he didn't know the extent of what they were doing at Pragia and when he found out, ordered it shutdown. Yet he did know what they were doing on Aite. And on the derelict reaper.

I really wish there had been a third,fourth, and fifth choice. "EDI! Open a comm channel to {Ambassador (Anderson or Udina) on the Citadel or the Citadel Council or Admiral Hackett}. {contact name} I'm on the collector base. They were making a reaper here. Do you want to purge the base or should I blow it? You have 15 seconds to decide."

Other than being irrelevant, have you considered that there is a very good reason why you can't give the base to the Citadel/Council/Systems Alliance? It's because the base is situated right in the 'legal' minefield that is the Terminus Systems. The Council can't be seen to go there, remember? This sort of project would obviously require a long term sort of investment in resources and time, so it's not as if they could just sneak past Omega for x months and expect not to be caught.

In this case, the fact that Cerberus isn't actually a legal representative of humanity allows it its freedom of movement throughout the territory, which is smoothed out somewhat by the obvious relationship of money exchanging hands between Cerberus and Aria.

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...
Since you didn't have those other three choices, it turns out to be a choice of whether you trust TIM and Cerberus or not. Given that he's supposedly the head of Cerberus, do you think he's the last best hope for humanity? He'd gladly sacrifice millions to achieve his goals so long as he remains on the top. He's ruthless.

I trust my decision at least that Cerberus will act as it will in order to defeat the Reapers since the Reapers threaten them too. I'll leave any Cerberus mop up operations till later, you know, when we aren't fighting for our mere survival. Balance of priorities, and Cerberus has never shown that they are of equal to greater threat compared to a species of extragalactic machines that have made it a habit of wiping out entire civilisations at certain points of time.

I'm not prepared to gamble the fate of the galaxy on the fact we may get another chance of finding another technological goldmine that allows us to combat the Reapers, whether that be knowledge of how they work (preferable imo), to actual weaponry.

[Seboist]

Arijharn wrote...
Cerberus has never shown that they are of equal to greater threat compared to a species of extragalactic machines that have made it a habit of wiping out entire civilisations at certain points of time..

Actually, Cerberus has never shown to be an equal or greater threat than even the three mercenary groups of ME2. Cerberus is a mickey mouse outfit compared to them.

[Arijharn]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Arijharn wrote...
Cerberus has never shown that they are of equal to greater threat compared to a species of extragalactic machines that have made it a habit of wiping out entire civilisations at certain points of time..

Actually, Cerberus has never shown to be an equal or greater threat than even the three mercenary groups of ME2. Cerberus is a mickey mouse outfit compared to them.

Akuze seems to say otherwise.

Lol, Akuze. Seriously, people use this as a word to get in sideways about everything to show how bad Cerberus is. Despite the fact that Akuze was an Alliance project, so showing how big bad Cerberus is also casts a negative light on other organisations, namely... their employers at the time.

The Mercenaries aren't blameless either; considering Zorya for one.

[Someone With Mass]

Seboist wrote...

Actually, Cerberus has never shown to be an equal or greater threat than even the three mercenary groups of ME2. Cerberus is a mickey mouse outfit compared to them.

Well, now they are.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

*whahahahaha meta-gaming*

[Seboist]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Arijharn wrote...
Cerberus has never shown that they are of equal to greater threat compared to a species of extragalactic machines that have made it a habit of wiping out entire civilisations at certain points of time..

Actually, Cerberus has never shown to be an equal or greater threat than even the three mercenary groups of ME2. Cerberus is a mickey mouse outfit compared to them.

Akuze seems to say otherwise.

Yeah, Cerberus killing a small number of marines makes them TOTALLY on par with three mercenary groups who control entire planets with millions of people (Zorya) and who murder, enslave, drug traffic and commit other major atrocities across the galaxy.

Oh and Cerberus being a small organization consisting of 150 operatives also puts them on par with the the merc groups who have countless troops,fighters,gunships and who knows what else at their disposal.

Totally an equal or greater threat no question. I'm sure the average Terminus resident fears getting attacked by them as much as they do a band of Blood Pack or Blue Suns.

[Arijharn]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

*whahahahaha meta-gaming*

I'm not sure about other people; but I think arguing against meta-gamers who meta-game to validate their decision is borderline moronic. Imo, you're free to choose what you want, but I'm not sure how someone's Shephard (as a 'real breathing person') can make those self-same decisions.

Probably why I tend to be renegade in the 'larger' decisions I guess. I try to RP my Shephard as if I was in shep's shoes and knows (or thinks I know) what he does, which is to say; not all-encompassing!

[Seboist]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Yeah, Cerberus killing a small number of marines makes them TOTALLY on par with three mercenary groups who control entire planets with millions of people (Zorya) and who murder, enslave, drug traffic and commit other major atrocities across the galaxy.

Oh and Cerberus being a small organization consisting of 150 operatives also puts them on par with the the merc groups who have countless troops,fighters,gunships and who knows what else at their disposal.

Totally an equal or greater threat no question. I'm sure the average Terminus resident fears getting attacked by them as much as they do a band of Blood Pack or Blue Suns.

To be honest, Cerberus and the mercenaries aren't really that comparable. Cerberus is more of a dagger in your back, while the mercenaries are more of an axe to the face.

Both equally not a good thing, but a bit different.

Only if the writers dictate that. There's no indicator in ME2 that Cerberus was going to be a major enemy in ME3, at least for someone who kept the base.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Arijharn wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

*whahahahaha meta-gaming*

I'm not sure about other people; but I think arguing against meta-gamers who meta-game to validate their decision is borderline moronic. Imo, you're free to choose what you want, but I'm not sure how someone's Shephard (as a 'real breathing person') can make those self-same decisions.

Probably why I tend to be renegade in the 'larger' decisions I guess. I try to RP my Shephard as if I was in shep's shoes and knows (or thinks I know) what he does, which is to say; not all-encompassing!

I try to role play the way I want,not the way I would.

If that makes me a bad roleplayer..well its my fricken game.

That said,sometimes the choice you want isn't an option and it kind of just leaves you stuck where you are with the CB decision.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Seboist wrote...

Only if the writers dictate that. There's no indicator in ME2 that Cerberus was going to be a major enemy in ME3, at least for someone who kept the base.

There is this thing some human beings have,called intuition.

The moment I saw TIM,I thought "This ****** is going to stab me in the back," and I never played ME1 so I had no idea wtf Cerberus was, I actually thought they were the "good guys".

And then there is Rule #21: Be polite,be professional, but have a plan to kill everyone you meet.


and there are people who wanted to fight with Cerberus from the get-go,and people who analyzed all the intereactions with TIM and decided working with them wasn't the best of decisions.

[Seboist]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Only if the writers dictate that. There's no indicator in ME2 that Cerberus was going to be a major enemy in ME3, at least for someone who kept the base.

There is this thing some human beings have,called intuition.

The moment I saw TIM,I thought "This ****** is going to stab me in the back," and I never played ME1 so I had no idea wtf Cerberus was, I actually thought they were the "good guys".

And then there is Rule #21: Be polite,be professional, but have a plan to kill everyone you meet.


and there are people who wanted to fight with Cerberus from the get-go,and people who analyzed all the intereactions with TIM and decided working with them wasn't the best of decisions.

Cerberus going after even a pure paragon Shepard make no sense, not until after the Reaper war is done with at the very least.

I didn't think Bioware would do something that cliche and predictable but there ya go.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Well,they said TIM isn't after you *per se* but there isn't too much besides from "40%",maybe that little factoid shouldn't have been thrown out there so willy-nilly

[Someone With Mass]

It can't be predictable, since nobody knows the reason why.

Duh.

[Arijharn]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Well,they said TIM isn't after you *per se* but there isn't too much besides from "40%",maybe that little factoid shouldn't have been thrown out there so willy-nilly

Could mean that we start to involve ourselves in whatever shenanigans Cerberus are performing imo, and not the other way around like so many (myself included) have come to believe.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Arijharn wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Well,they said TIM isn't after you *per se* but there isn't too much besides from "40%",maybe that little factoid shouldn't have been thrown out there so willy-nilly

Could mean that we start to involve ourselves in whatever shenanigans Cerberus are performing imo, and not the other way around like so many (myself included) have come to believe.

Eh who knows,maybe TIM is tired of alien women and he has moved onto varren and horses.

[Someone With Mass]

I just love when people are calling TIM's actions predictable and the army so out of character for Cerberus, when in reality, it's what Cerberus has been trying to achieve all along. The geth, rachni, thorian creepers, krogans, vorcha and many more. They were all thought to be Cerberus' shock troopers.

And why do you think Cerberus is trying to create super soldiers in form of juiced up biotics?

It's just to add to the army Cerberus has been building in secret. It fits so well, I'm almost looking forward to the explanation, since it could be one of the very few things Cerberus actually gets right. Or it could go horribly wrong. I'll still laugh, though.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Someone With Mass wrote...

I just love when people are calling TIM's actions predictable and the army so out of character for Cerberus, when in reality, it's what Cerberus has been trying to achieve all along. The geth, rachni, thorian creepers, krogans, vorcha and many more. They were all thought to be Cerberus' shock troopers.

And why do you think Cerberus is trying to create super soldiers in form of juiced up biotics?

It's just to add to the army Cerberus has been building in secret. It fits so well, I'm almost looking forward to the explanation, since it could be one of the very few things Cerberus actually gets right. Or it could go horribly wrong. I'll still laugh, though.

I don't think anyone has thrown out this perspective before....provokes some thoughts.


Someone will drop a wall of text telling you that TIM ain't a bad guy and blah blah blah,though.

[Sepewrath]

Its a pretty obvious perspective, who would think an army is out of character for Cerberus, they sure seemed to have a lot people yelling they were going to destroy me, with sniper rifles and throw in ME1.