3618 réponses à ce sujet

[Lotion Soronarr]

Omega4RelayResident wrote...

1) Fist of all Casey Hudson confirmed that Cerberus is in fact INDOCTRINATED and that is how they justify Cerberus comming after you in the beginning of ME3... no matter the choice you made concerning the Collector Base. This is not speculation it is fact. www.newsarama.com/games/e3-2011-mass-effect-3-closed-door-110616.html 

How the H*** does a man who can see all possible outcomes, has resources that are only rivaled by the Shadow Broker him self, and has intel only rivaled by the Shadow Broker allow his own faction get INDOCTRINATED unless he waned them to become INDOCTRINATED?

Giving a space station that is capable of MANUFACTURING REAPERS to a group that is definitelly INDOCTRINATED is a BAD idea. I do not understand how anyone can argue against this logic. It MIGHT be a good idea if the Alliance got there first or took it away from Cerberus, but the Alliance does not have data from the Reaper IFF in order to safely navigate the Omega 4 Relay... dont forget I would know because I live there. LOL

So it is safe to assume that the base is in the hands of an INDOCTRINATED enemy group. The Alliance can not get there to take it back. What is to stop Cerberus from making the Human Reaper in the mean time? In addition since the facility is capable of MANUFACTURING a REAPER it also has REAPER tech on it that would create more Indoctrination.

Dude..
For one you do not know what will happen in the future when you make that decision.
Cerberus getting completely indoctrinated and turning agaisnt humantiy is really not an outcome that one would consider likely. What's you using here is broken logic.
You got an anemy that's more advanced than you and will come and use terrible weapons agaisnt you.
The base must be studied, regardless by whom - as long as its' someone who is also against the reapers, it's all justified. There is no if's or but's about it.

Secondly, the base can manufacture reapers, but building something that large and studying and mastering that tech takes a lot of time and resources. And to build a true reaper you need lots and lots of goo. So indoctrinated cerberus + base still equals no new reaper.

2) Also... It is fact that TIM a.k.a. Jack Harper came across a Reaper Artifact in the First Contact War. Chris Priestly redirects your attention to these facts, and since he works for BioWare and you do not I will take his word over yours. Not being a d**k or anything just being honest. Ben Hislop and Jack Harper were hit by energy blasts from the artifact. Ben died but Jack survived and his eyes began to glow blue and I quote "usually an early sign of indoctrination". social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/324/index/7829868 www.newsarama.com/games/10-must-know-facts-mass-effect-novels-comics-mass-effect-3-110707-1.html So it is safe to assume that he suffered early effects of INDOCTRINATION since then... which is around the time Shep was a child. Plenty of time to become fully INDOCTRINATED.

As RENEGADE Shep you will notice that your eyes glow RED but in the same pattern as Jack Harper's.

And Shep isn't indoctrinated. TIM has been shown to work consistently agasint hte reapers. Also, it's been confirmed that TIM si still TIM, and not a reaper puppet.

Now smarty pants why dont you come up with a logical explanation as to why TIM knowingly created an "organic host" for the Reapers to use as they please? Instead of being stubborn about this argument why dont you go READ THE BOOKS. You do not have to take my word for it but I guarantee you will replay all of your Shep profiles you wanted to have with a Paragon ending after you read the books. For crying out loud you are even expected to read the novels since you can purchase them on the Citadel Zakera Ward level 27.

Why did TIM infect Grayson?
To study indoctrination, that's why.

If you are not knowingly trying to manipulate people into making the "wrong" choice then I am sorry I thought you are, but I can not clearly see how anyone can assume that keeping the Collector Base is a good thing.

Keeping the base is the logical choice.

[Ieldra]

@Omega4RelayResident:
OK, here's my response. But let me first say there is absolutely no reason for your self-righteousness. I have read all the books and know almost all of ME-related material except ME:Evolution (which I'll get in the omnibus edition which isn't out yet), whose main events I still know about. I don't know why I'm going to the trouble to answer, since clearly you are incapable of seeing evidence that disagrees with your preconceptions (if you think I'm rude, read your post again) but here it is.

You've accused me of trying to manipulate people into making the "wrong" decision, or alternatively, of being a fool. I will now go to the trouble of explaining to you why this applies to you rather than me with your insistence that everyone who wants a good ending should replay the SM in games where they kept the Collector base (which is a claim I have, not to put too fine a point on it, never made about other players' games where they destroyed it):

Part I: The in-world perspective

When I argue for keeping the Collector base, I am using the in-world perspective, i.e. the knowledge Shepard has at the time when we make the decision. The main argument is "I think keeping the base is the better decision because understanding more about the Reapers trumps all other considerations". Many, many arguments have been made like this, and an equal amount to counter them, and I don't need to rehash it all here. The important point is that all your arguments which use the out-of-world perspective, using information like from the books or the comics Shepard hasn't got instead of information within the world, totally miss the point.
At the time when we make the decision, keeping the CB appears like the best choice to me. I stand by that decision even should it turn out it wasn't as good as I thought. However, even with the out-of-world perspective added, your reasoning is far from convincing....


Part II: The out-of-world perspective

II-1: Indoctrinated Cerberus.
(1) Well no, this is not fact. In fact, the article you quoted explicitly states that all we have going as evidence is the three words "they're indoctrinated", which were spoken by Shepard in the demo. Never has a developer made any comment about whether Cerberus as a whole is indoctrinated or not.

(2) Even if the Cerberus troops really are indoctrinated - which I believe is true - then that doesn't mean the rest of Cerberus is indoctrinated as well, and even more importantly, the question remains: by whom? Indoctrination is a technology, it doesn't automatically make you a slave of the Reapers, but a slave of whomever controls the process of indoctrination. If TIM is behind the indoctrination - which again, I believe is true - then the question remains why he does that. See below for that.

II-2: The Illusive Man's motives
(1) Mac Walters has said in an interview that "TIM is still very much himself. Yes, there have been influences in his life, but we wouldn't want players to think that this man who you have been working for in Mass Effect 2 was an enemy all along." I take that to mean that the Illusive Man is not indoctrinated into furthering the Reapers' plans.

(2) Should TIM have been indoctrinated in the First Contact War, it would be extremely implausible to assume that he hasn't been under control by the Reapers at the time when ME2 takes place. Only his actions in ME2 make absolutely zero sense for an agent of the Reapers. The best thing he could've done to support their agenda would have been.....nothing. Instead he goes out of his way to revive Shepard and send him on a mission that destroys the Reapers' plan B (human Reaper) and C (the Arrival).

Conclusion 1: TIM himself is not working for the Reapers in ME3, but has his own agenda. If Shepard's supposition that the Cerberus troops are indoctrinated is correct, then it is far more likely that TIM uses indoctrination on his troops to keep them loyal to him and for recruiting more troops, which explains why Cerberus is so strong in ME3 (this is hinted at in the article you quoted).

Conclusion 2: The Reaper artifact Jack Harper made contact with in the First Contact War did something to him, but whatever it did, it wasn't indoctrination. At least, if it was indoctrination, it was a subtler kind than anything we've seen so far, leaving him in full command of his abilities AND motivations for more than 30 years.

II-3: Paul Grayson, Shepard and Cerberus research into indoctrination
(1) The books explicitly state that TIM implants Reaper technology in Grayson to study the effects of indoctrination. Also recall that they tried to keep him confined because he could become dangerous and that indoctrinated Grayson could escape from his confinement because Cerberus scientists underestimated the amount of change indoctrination could effect. Plainly, TIM did not knowingly create a host for the Reapers, he didn't know what he was doing here.

(2) That Reaper technology was used to bring Shepard back to life is 100% pure speculation. There is no single piece of evidence for it. The glowing eyes are no evidence since (a) they depend on your actions and ( we can remove that effect, and in fact I always do even with non-Renegade Shepards.

II-4: Repercussions for the Collector base decision
(1) So it is possible that the negative consequences of keeping the base are bigger than expected. Unfortunate. But the main reasoning still stands: any knowledge about the Reapers is still way more accessible in Cerberus' hands than it would be if only the Reapers had it. I grant it is a gamble, but it was that from the start: should we, in the process of defeating Cerberus, find knowledge about the Reapers that will play a decisive role in winning the war, then my original reason for keeping the base will have been validated.

(2) We do not know which consequences keeping the base will have. Cerberus does its thing with its indoctrinated troops regardless of whether or not we give them the base. Possibly we made Cerberus stronger, but that was always a calculated risk, as you can see in any "base keeper's" reasoning about all this. The decision will only be invalidated if in the process of defeating Cerberus, we do not find anything about the Reapers that makes a decisive difference in the war, if we find such information regardless of having kept the base or not, or if having kept the base will make the war against the Reapers harder to win. None of this has materialized as yet. Thus, claiming that keeping the base is "objectively the wrong decision" is at least premature. It may turn out to be wrong. 

(3) It is a reasonable expectation that the setup for Mass Effect 3 will not make it extremely hard to win the war against the Reapers for either base-keepers or base-destroyers. Both will have a (hopefully interesting) path to victory. The same counts for the Council decision at the end of ME1. Your actions in ME3 itself will have far greater effects. There might be paths closed off by earlier decisions, but also other paths opened by them. Remember this is story that must make sense for the 63% of players who destroyed the base (source: Bioware statistics) as well as the 37% who kept it. 

That's it. And before you answer - should you want to - I recommend that you take a step back and look at the evidence with less preoccupation and more emotional detachment. Here my point of view again, just to get things clear: From an in-world perspective, I am convinced that keeping the base is the better decision at the time when we make it. From the out-of-world perspective, I expect that both decisions will lead to interesting outcomes with no decisive disadvantage for either group.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 25 août 2011 - 11:22 .

[Arijharn]

I'm pretty sure Casey's said on his twitter said that the comment about Cerberus being indoctrinated was something he said to essentially build up hype. It could be true that this is how Shephard see's the situation, but may not actually be the case in game.

EDIT: Here's what I'm talking about: http://twitter.com/#...941855161032704

Modifié par Arijharn, 25 août 2011 - 03:44 .

[alperez]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...


Dude, the very existance of the possiblity proves that it DOES exist. Don't you get it?
The nature of power and influence is what it is.

And also, if such leverage is to be used, it wouldn't be used openly. Such deals and arragmenents are made in private. It's not like the prime minister of GB publicly threatens Slovenia with X if they don't vote on Y. And you can really see in game how the balance of power is skewed. The interaction between Udina/Anderson and the Council shows it rather nicely.

You constnatly argue agaisnt all logic and reason that the ME universe works in some misterius, illogical way where reaons, poer nad logic are upside down, and yet we see tehy are alive and well. You lsot this argument a long time ago, but you just cna't accept it.

Just to be clear to you, simply stating an opposing opinion doesn't disprove an argument, yet constantly you do so and somehow claim that this proves your argument correct.

Your argument that the possibility something exists proves that it does exist is the most baseless ridicolous argument i've ever read, its possible that anything exists simply stating it without evidence to back it up doesn't prove anything.

When someone brings up things like this your usual stance is its not shown in game therefore its unknown knowledge or metagaming and yet you then to try and prove your point do the very same thing and try to claim that its because of the nature of what your arguing that somehow it proves your point.

The fact is that in game its not shown that leverage is used by any of the councillors to get their own way, its that simple, to suggest that they would or do without evidence to back it up, you respond with its the nature of power and they wouldn't show it openly so it can exist, which misses the point.

So we can speculate that it is indeed the case that councillors use leverage or would in order to get their agenda pushed forward, what we cant say is that this is definetely the case, simply because in game its not shown to be.

In terms of Udina/Anderson dealings with the council somehow showing how skewed the balance of power is, again in their interactions the choices the council make are completely valid and in keeping with the info presented, they in no way show a skewed balance of power or show councillors acting only in thier own races interests, which again doesn't prove the point your trying to make.

[alperez]

Arijharn

I agree with you that its quite possible and even likely that it was the fact that it was an asari colony was attacked that provided the tipping point in the rebellions. It may very well have been that reason alone was enough to force the council.

Personally though i don't find it as suspicious as you do for a couple of reasons.

1. Trying appeasement eventually you get to a tipping point, it could have just been conincedental that the point was when they attacked that particular colony.

2. Maybe up to that point they felt that the krogans wouldn't go further because the next colonies in line where the 3 council member colonies so they felt rather than risk all out war they could sacrifice the other colonies if it prevented it.

3. attacking an asari colony would show that the appeasement tactics were a complete waste of time, something that up to that point they may have felt were actually neccessary.

In terms of actions taking after Eden prime, again correct me if i'm wrong, but did the geth attack any other human colonies later, or did it prove to be a one off?

They could indeed have gone the route you suggest, your right what happened is exactly how you say and shepard being sent was more about Saren. But in game the explanation given sufficed to me, so we may have to agree to disagree on this point.

The problem with sending a fleet was if i remember correctly that the geth attacked and retreated back to the terminus, so while sending a fleet may have prevented a further attack, no further attack seemed like happening.

In essence even from the limited evidence Shepard brought back it seemed more likely that the attack on Eden Prime was nothing to do with geth vs. humans but was actually completely about Saren which they did take action on.

In terms of the genophage your facts are completely spot on, however its your conclussion based on those facts where we seem to differ.

The council using the genophage and genophage vs. 2, was still a decision taking by the council by consenus, it was if i remember correctly tasked to the Salarians to monitor and control. When they found increased population they took the decision to use the vs2 to stem that increase.

Consdering the origian decision to use it was galactic stability, then it should follow that the decision to re-use it to was for the same purpose, its not a case of one member race acting for their own benefit but the council acting for galactic benefit which doesn't show what your trying to say imo.

The legalities and moralities are seperate issues and there is no legal or moral basis for the council to do what they did, but that doesn't show them acting for their own interests or as seperate entities only looking out for each of their own species interests, that shows them like most governments to play loose and fast with moral and legal issues when making choices they feel are beneficial to everyone.

Lastly in terms of me3, personally i think the council will be practially redundant, i do believe each species will act on their own interests first and foremost, it'll be up to us to convince them seperately to act galactically.

The problem with this is that it imo goes against how they've shown things in game to work, where thus far its been council making galactic choices.

Modifié par alperez, 25 août 2011 - 09:08 .

[Omega4RelayResident]

Response @ Ieldra2


Okay let me lay down how I came to my conclusions. Lets just see if we can agree on the facts first?

1) Okay so do you agree that in fact Cerberus is after Shepard at the beginning of ME3 no matter the decision you made at the end of ME2?

2) Did TIM come in contact with a Reaper artifact in the First Contact War, and did it make his eyes glow?

3) Does Cerberus have a jumpstart at understanding Reaper tech over the rest of the galaxy and presumably even us the readers / players?

4) Are Khalee and Gillian as important as Shepard to the Mass Effect Lore outside of actual gameplay so far?

Now onto the arguments:

In Game perspective on the Collector Base: 

1) I playing as Shepard have not found enough reasons to keep the Collector Base on 4 out of 6 profiles I have saved now ready for ME3. One profile is the full blown "Renegade F*** it all I want to become a Reaper" Profile, the second one is the "I want to beat the game as a Paragon with the heaviest opposition possible" Profile, and the other 4 I could not bring my self logically or instinctually bring my self to keep the Collector Base. One of those 4 is My Main Commander Shepard playthrough which is primarily Paragon and I have never replayed the profile to change events... its a one shot deal... no running away from my decisions.

I can not justify keeping tech that is capable of Constructing a Reaper. The reasons are as follows:

A) What can one Reaper do to help us in the fight against millions of them? Nothing.

Collector base is loaded with Reaper tech... not once have we as the players run into Reaper tech that is not capable of Indoctrination. Whomever would study the CB would become Indoctrinated no matter what. I would not allow others to become Indoctrinated... the gamble is to high to bet against. For what is to come we need every sentient life form in the galaxy on our side. Shepard knows that reaper tech has a way of Indoctrinating people that study it.

C) If "friendly" Reapers could be constructed they would still need organic "components" sacrificed for the construction process. No way will I allow Cerberus to take colonists and process them into some kind of Ultimate Machine Defense. Entire familys destroyed to make a Reaper against millions of Reapers? The price is too high. It thins the numbers of humans in the galaxy and we need every able bodied person to take up arms and fight for their own right to survive.

D) I as Shepard have been abhored by Cerberus' usage of Husks, Rachni Soldiers, and Thorian Creepers as troops. there is no way I am ever helping Cerberus in the long run ever. I joined the mission to stop the Reapers and to that that only. I might as well mess with Cerberus while I can.

Out of game perspective on the issue at hand:

A) Why would Chris Priestly insist on knowing those 10 things he linked unless they held true value and weight? This is most likely something that holds its weight in lore. I do not believe Chris Priestly would intentinally mislead us. The BioWare team never mislead us on KotoR: The Sith Lords sequel. Not only that but I am an avid reader of novels written by Drew Karpyshyn and I have grown accustomed to his plot twists and writting style. I "feel" that I know where he is headed with this with 99.99% accuracy. I learned well from reading the Darth Bane Trilogy... he also states on one of his Forewords that he is quite stubborn when he is in love with a plot idea. Once he has something he loves... he will not let it go. No matter what.

I do believe that TIM is in fact indoctrinated. 
  
   1) The graphic novels hint at the fact he was indoctrinated during the First Contact War.
   2) The In Game Codex states: if full indoctrination sets in quickly the affected subject's mind quickly degrades 
       leaving them a mindles beast. Slow indoctrination can last many years while the subject slowly becomes
       suceptible to the indoctrination.
   3) His actions have always been meant to make humanity look bad to the rest of the galaxy. He clains he strives
       for human dominance but his actions do end up getting noticed by the other Council Species from time to time.
       So much so that Shepard was threatened to be punished as a traitor by the council. Until Anderson stepped in. 
   4) His eyes glow with the same color blue as the husks. 

So here is the big argument in this theroy. If TIM is in fact Indoctrinated why in the world would he bring Shepard back to life? The biggest threat to the Reapers is dead... what else is there to worry about?

Shepard did not successfully destroy Saren and Sovreign alone. If he did then this argument above would hold water. The Collectors at the beginning of ME2 tried to destroy the entire crew of the Normandy SR1. They successfully killed Shepard, Presly, and a few of the crew. The remainder of the team split up and went their own ways afterward and they are still a threat to the Reapers. Khalee Sanders, and Gillian are both very well experienced women in the ME Lore and they were named as some of the individuals that were seen as a threat to the Reapers in the graphic novels.

Garrus, Tali , Wrex, Liara, Kaidan / Ashley were former team members to Commander Shepard and going hunting for each of them to ensure that the Reapers succeed would be inefficient. TIM now believes that the Collectors are capable of killing Shepard so with that piece of mind he decides to resurrect Shepard so he can rally his old team members if possible and a few other talented individuals in order to have them all in one place which would allow the Collectors to quickly and efficiently destroy all the opposition in one blow. They failed last time and this time they want to be sure, but why then would they need Shepard for that? Shepard is the only one that can gather up the old team and send them to their doom past the Omega 4 Relay. Do you honestly think any of them would trust Cerberus to go beyond the Omega 4 relay? Its Shepard's influence TIM needed to draw the other idividuals together. It is even refered to as the Suicide Mission in game everyone is expecting the whole team to die and fail one on the other side of the Omega 4 Relay.

With all of them out of the way the only people that would require definited hunting down would be Liara, Wrex, Kahlee, and Gillian. So with this mentality it is understandabke why an Indoctrinated TIM would bring Shepard back to life. This is the old philosophy of "two birds with one stone".

TIM's Motives: 

There is no way in hell that TIM has honorable intentions. Why would he come after Shepard in ME3? Why is Cerberus hunting down Shepard and not trying to protect Earth? You know you would figure Cerberus joining the Alliance to fight off the Reapers would be "ensuring humanity has a place in the galaxy." But no you can not logically hypothesize why in the world Cerberus is after Shepard and not standing with the Alliance to protect the Earth. You have kept on making assumptions and deductions about the decisions regarding ME2 but none involving why Cerberus is comming after Shepard.

I stated that Cerberus is in fact indoctrinated. Some say no Cerberus is not. Chris Priestly still says Cerberus is in fact Indoctrinated. However lets forget about Indoctrination for a moment.

At Gamecon it was confirmed that: NO MATTER WHAT DECISION WAS MADE REGARDING THE COLLECTOR BASE CERBERUS WAS COMMING TO KILL SHEPARD.

How do you justify this if Cerberus is not Indoctrinated? Keep the base and still get hunted down? Why? Because Shepard has seen TIM? Nope not it. Plenty of people has seen TIM... Jacob, Miranda etc. More people have seen TIM than have seen the Shadow Broker. Give me a reason to hunt down Shepard.... during a Reaper invasion of Earth no less. ONE GOOD F****** REASON. Now that is where I am being snipy. Even if Cerberus was indoctrinated.... How? How could the all knowing, all seeing TIM allow his own faction to get hijacked from under his nose by the Reapers? The only logical conclusion I see is that he is inon the indoctrination. 

Also I do not think TIM indoctrinated his own faction in order to counteract Reaper indoctrination. It doesnt make sense. Its like watching two guys thumb wrestle with thumbs coated in AstroGlide. At that point just set the ME3 game for a 50 hour long cut-scene of TIM and a Reaper playing tug-o-war with a Cerberus agent yelling, "MINE!" "NO, MINE!" 

There is one other hypothesis to TIM's and Cerberus' actions:

I did not present this earlier because it is even more far fetched to a degree than TIM being indoctrinated. However it is not outside of the range of possibility knowing Drew Karpyshyn's writting style.

When TIM was affected by the Reaper artifact he got a glimpse of the comming destruction much like with the prothean warnings. He however does not see a possibility of humanity surviving the comming War with the Reapers as we are. He deduces that the only way to defeat the Reapers is if humanity intigrates Reaper technology into our species. However humanity must not become them. Humanity must do it on its own terms. Which would explain TIM's experimentation on Paul Grayson from a different point of view logically. TIM still sees that Commander Shepard would oppose such a direction for humanity and decides to go after him.

Yes I agree with you that TIM is very much himself..... but that is awfully vague. We dont know WTF "himself" actually represents. He could mean that TIM is "himself indoctrinated since the First Contact War", "himself the manipulative ****-like scientist" (Dont tell me he is not racist or xenophobic in any way), or "himself the human who actually has honorable goals,"

The "HIMSELF" part is still undefined and unkown to us... especially true if Chris Priestly still is willing to present the link I provided that states Jack Harper may have very well been slowly indoctrinated since the first contact war. Remember that it is Chris Priestly's JOB to talk to us and inform us. He is told what to tell us and what not to tell us. The only people working on this project I will believe over Chris is Casey Hudson (Which is at the top of the food chain at BioWare) or Drew Karpyshyn.... who has been BioWare's go-to writter every time they released SciFi games. Remember Saren thought he was still him self untill the very end when you got him to pull the trigger... and yet you still had to fight him after that... "himself" means nothing if the "himself" is indoctrinated. All that was was clever use of laguage on the part of Mac Walters.... and yet as far as the story goes Mac answers to Drew and not the other way around.

Also on the main ME3 website if you click on the N7Ops tab you are redirected to the released info about what is going on. In there if you click on the Enemy Recon tab and then click on Cerberus Trooper it clearly states that "as the galaxy crumbles, their loyalty to Cerberus becomes more absolute." I think both you and I can agree that is indoctrination. However why is it that the Reapers are not attacking Cerberus? Also why the hell would you have to indoctrinate humanity in order for them to fight for their right to survive? That makes no sense people will fight to survive whether they are indoctrinated or not.

Also there is a prety decent in game hint.... destroy the base and all of your team members think you did the right thing when you talk to them afterwards on the Normandy. Give it to Cerberus and they dont know if you did the right thing.

Lastly:

I never called you a moron or anything like that. I questioned whether or not you were trying to mess with people because I couldnt tell if you were or were not. I also stated that I apologize if you were not because your arguments honestly seem hellbent on getting people to keep the base. So in my original post i did put the apology if you were not messing with people. Closest thing to offensive I said was I was going to believe the books, graphic novels, and the BioWare employees over you. You would agree that that is the best choice too I think.

Bottom line we may just have to agree to disagree because I feel that destroying the base was right. However the more evidence that is presented for either side even more questions get brought up.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Omega4RelayResident wrote...
I can not justify keeping tech that is capable of Constructing a Reaper. The reasons are as follows:

A) What can one Reaper do to help us in the fight against millions of them? Nothing.

Not one reaper. Reaper tech. If you know how to build one, you know what makes it tick. You know how it's engines work, the chinks in the armor, etc...
 that is very usefull information, evne when NOT counting any possible ship upgrades that would come from it - such as vastly superior shielding and weaponry.

And if millions of reapers come, then we're all boned compeltely.

Collector base is loaded with Reaper tech... not once have we as the players run into Reaper tech that is not capable of Indoctrination. Whomever would study the CB would become Indoctrinated no matter what. I would not allow others to become Indoctrinated... the gamble is to high to bet against. For what is to come we need every sentient life form in the galaxy on our side. Shepard knows that reaper tech has a way of Indoctrinating people that study it.

Wrong. We have run into reaper tech that didn't indoctrinate. We don' even know if there's such a device on the base at all.
And you cannot avoid confronting indoctrination. When the reapers come, thousands of indoctrination devices will come with them. You'd rather go against that unprepared?
No, even if we knew for sure there is such a device on the base, it's still worth to study it. It's their most insidious weapon and we have no idea how to coutner it. It has to be studied.

C) If "friendly" Reapers could be constructed they would still need organic "components" sacrificed for the construction process. No way will I allow Cerberus to take colonists and process them into some kind of Ultimate Machine Defense. Entire familys destroyed to make a Reaper against millions of Reapers? The price is too high. It thins the numbers of humans in the galaxy and we need every able bodied person to take up arms and fight for their own right to survive.

Nah. Reapers core need goo, but you don't need goo to create a reaper-like ship. After all, if you know how to make reaper engines, reaper armor, reaper shield, reaper guns, reaper EZ cores, etc... why would you even need a reaper goo core? With that you can build a reper-equalnet ship that's run by a VI or crew.

D) I as Shepard have been abhored by Cerberus' usage of Husks, Rachni Soldiers, and Thorian Creepers as troops. there is no way I am ever helping Cerberus in the long run ever. I joined the mission to stop the Reapers and to that that only. I might as well mess with Cerberus while I can.

Except that Cerberus is dedicated to fighting reapers. I'm amazed you refuse to unite with Cerberus to save the galaxy from a far bigger threat.

I find it funny how pure paragons talk about unity and holding hands, and strength trough co-operation and numbers..and then refuse to cooperate with Cerberus agaisnt the reapers. Insted of a 2-way war, they insist on lookign at it as a 3-way war. Priorities are so messed up, it's tragic.

Out of game perspective on the issue at hand:

I do believe that TIM is in fact indoctrinated.

We have been specificly told he's not.

Garrus, Tali , Wrex, Liara, Kaidan / Ashley were former team members to Commander Shepard and going hunting for each of them to ensure that the Reapers succeed would be inefficient. TIM now believes that the Collectors are capable of killing Shepard so with that piece of mind he decides to resurrect Shepard so he can rally his old team members if possible and a few other talented individuals in order to have them all in one place which would allow the Collectors to quickly and efficiently destroy all the opposition in one blow. They failed last time and this time they want to be sure, but why then would they need Shepard for that? Shepard is the only one that can gather up the old team and send them to their doom past the Omega 4 Relay. Do you honestly think any of them would trust Cerberus to go beyond the Omega 4 relay? Its Shepard's influence TIM needed to draw the other idividuals together. It is even refered to as the Suicide Mission in game everyone is expecting the whole team to die and fail one on the other side of the Omega 4 Relay.

:blink:

WUT????

Stupidest argument I EVER heard. Dear lord. Ressurecting Shep so they could kill him again?
Ever heard of assasins? Poisoning?

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 26 août 2011 - 07:38 .

[SgtElias]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I find it funny how pure paragons talk about unity and holding hands, and strength trough co-operation and numbers..and then refuse to cooperate with Cerberus agaisnt the reapers. Insted of a 2-way war, they insist on lookign at it as a 3-way war. Priorities are so messed up, it's tragic.

Speaking as someone that always plays a paragon, I wouldn't say that I see the conflict as a three-way war, so much as the possibility of one war quickly following another, if the Illusive Man is really the sort of person I fear he is.

I have bounced back and forth constantly about my opinions on the Illusive Man, and the sort of character he is ( I admit, it doesn't help that he's voiced by Martin Sheen). I seem to spring from, "dangerous xenophobe" to "ends-justifies-the-means, but basically trying to do good." And because of this, I never, never choose to give him the Collector Base. Not because I don't think it's needed; it absolutely is. Not because I worry that he's indoctrinated (because when I was making that call, I'm pretty sure that wasn't an issue yet). But because, ultimately, I think he's very shrewd and opportunistic; even weakened, and facing a war-torn galaxy recovering from a massive Reaper invasion, he probably has the resoruces and drive to potentially conquer "for humanity" at least part of the known galaxy. And that's really not a guy I'd like to give invaluably destructive tech to.

Is this a logical choice? Probably not. The logical choice, it seems to me, is to give him the damn thing and then try to clean up the mess later, if a mess is created. But to a paragon player (me, at least) this is an option that simply cannot be allowed. If I knowingly give that technology to someone that has proven himself in the past to be, well, at times a man with few scruples, I am directly responsible for the carnage he wreaks thereafter. If, however, I deny him the technology and the Reapers kill more people because of it, then I am only indirectly resposible for their actions, and the part I played in worsening them.

So practically, perhaps to a Paragade or Renegade player this makes almost no difference. But to me, it makes all the difference in the world.

So, personally, I would call destroying the base the moral choice, if not the logical one.

Sorry to interrupt your conversation. I felt like responding to a thread with an actual discussion this evening, as opposed to "what did you name your Hawke?" or "Who is your favorite companion, and why?"

[Ieldra]

@Omega4RelayResident:

First about your facts:
[quote]1) Okay so do you agree that in fact Cerberus is after Shepard at the beginning of ME3 no matter the decision you made at the end of ME2?

2) Did TIM come in contact with a Reaper artifact in the First Contact War, and did it make his eyes glow?

3) Does Cerberus have a jumpstart at understanding Reaper tech over the rest of the galaxy and presumably even us the readers / players?[/quote]
Yes, it appears that way.

[quote]4) Are Khalee and Gillian as important as Shepard to the Mass Effect Lore outside of actual gameplay so far? [/quote]
Gillian? Why that? Personally, I do ascribe importance to her, but that has more to do with my take on things regarding human biotics. She's not played an active role in the bigger scheme of things so far. How important Kahlee has been can only be determined after the whole conflict is over. 
I agree there is great potential for both, but I'll wait until ME:Deception is out to say anything about Gillian, and we'll see how important Kahlee will come to be.


Now about your arguments:
[quote]I can not justify keeping tech that is capable of Constructing a Reaper.[/quote]
As a rule, an undesirable application does not invalidate a whole technology. Example: nuclear technology.

[quote]A) What can one Reaper do to help us in the fight against millions of them? Nothing.[/quote]
Building a Reaper with the CB was never the advantage I was looking for when I kept the base. It was understanding their structure and inner workings in order to be able to fight them better.

[quote] Collector base is loaded with Reaper tech... not once have we as the players run into Reaper tech that is not capable of Indoctrination.[/quote]
Counterexamples: EDI, the Thanix, possibly Shepard himself.

[quote]C) If "friendly" Reapers could be constructed they would still need organic "components" sacrificed for the construction process. No way will I allow Cerberus to take colonists and process them into some kind of Ultimate Machine Defense. Entire familys destroyed to make a Reaper against millions of Reapers? The price is too high. It thins the numbers of humans in the galaxy and we need every able bodied person to take up arms and fight for their own right to survive.[/quote]
*LOL* Are you serious? The Reapers will harvest organics in the billions, and possibly millions will fall in the war against them. And you complain about "Entire families destroyed"? Where are you living, cloudcuckoolander? It is destroyed *worlds* we are facing. You're just sticking your head into the sand. 
Apart from that, constructing a Reaper was never the advantage I keep the CB for. It is the knowledge about the Reapers' structure and internal workings that might help us fight them. That Cerberus might want to construct a Reaper is unfortunate, but as you said, it won't make a difference, so why worry overmuch about it? In ME3, I'll take their bases and their knowledge and do what I think is best with them, and that does *not* include constructing a Reaper.

[quote]D) I as Shepard have been abhored by Cerberus' usage of Husks, Rachni Soldiers, and Thorian Creepers as troops. there is no way I am ever helping Cerberus in the long run ever. I joined the mission to stop the Reapers and to that that only. I might as well mess with Cerberus while I can. [/quote]
Husks and Creepers are non-sapient life forms. I can see nothing wrong with using them as expendable shock troops, as long as you don't kill people to create Husks yourself. Things are a little more ambiguous with the Rachni, but there is no reason why you should put your completely irrational abhorrence into action. Take a mental step back and think instead of feel.


[quote]A) Why would Chris Priestly insist on knowing those 10 things he linked unless they held true value and weight? This is most likely something that holds its weight in lore. I do not believe Chris Priestly would intentinally mislead us.[/quote]
I don't know why Chris Priestly linked them, but part of it may be advertisement for the books, so don't read too much into it. It's important information, yes, but it's not information written down by Bioware. There is a great deal of interpretation in that article. For instance this:  "but that close contact with a Reaper artifact clearly affected him, leaving his eyes forever changed, usually an early sign of indoctrination". Well, that's not true. We don't know that indoctrination affects people that way, that's pure supposition.
What I take as a fact from No. 10 of that article is "The artifact affected Jack Harper, and it *may* be a slow form of indoctrination". And yet again, it may not, because his actions in ME2 make no sense for an agent of the Reapers. See below for more about that.

[quote]The BioWare team never mislead us on KotoR: The Sith Lords sequel. Not only that but I am an avid reader of novels written by Drew Karpyshyn and I have grown accustomed to his plot twists and writting style. I "feel" that I know where he is headed with this with 99.99% accuracy. I learned well from reading the Darth Bane Trilogy... he also states on one of his Forewords that he is quite stubborn when he is in love with a plot idea. Once he has something he loves... he will not let it go. No matter what. [/quote]
.....and Drew Karpyshyn didn't write the plot of Mass Effect 3. Mac Walters did. Apart from that, I don't have a great deal of respect for Karpyshyn's characterization. You feel that you know where things are headed because Karpyshyn plugs into stereotypes. There's no reason to take that for truth. If Mass Effect 2 is any indication, things won't be as simple as that.
 
TIM being indoctrinated:
(1) I said TIM's actions in ME2 make no sense for an agent of the Reapers. Are you now seriously telling me TIM resurrected Shepard in order to gather his ME1 team so that they could be more easily disposed of?
I am sorry, that's the most ludicrous hypothesis I've ever heard for TIM's motivations. First, TIM actively prevented a friendly re-union between Shepard and the VS by letting it slip that Shepard might be working for Cerberus. Second, TIM sought to sow distrust between Shepard and Liara by telling Shepard Liara was working for the Shadow Broker. Third, TIM encouraged Shepard to gather a *new* team. And all that on top of the fact that no one of Shepard's old team had any power to affect things on his/her own. 

(2) The comic states that the Reaper artifact had an effect on him. Whether or not that was indoctrination, that remains to be seen. TIM's actions, so far, do not point that way.

(3) The eyes are no evidence of indoctrination. We have not seen that effect connected to indoctrination elsewhere. You only connect them because they look eerie and indoctrination is a particularly sinister application of Reaper technology.  


TIM's Motivations: 
I do not presume to know TIM's motivations. My motivations to keep the Collector base are independent of TIM's motivations to want it. I do not trust him at the end of ME2 except that he wants to preserve and advance humanity, and even then his vision of that advancement might not match one I would want.

I don't know how often I must repeat this: TIM's motivations do not matter in the end. When I told him to use the base to fight the Reapers and he replied "It's not that simple", I knew I couldn't trust him to be an ally in the future. Should he rethink this opinion and join me in the end (which I don't believe will happen) I'll take his help, if he continues to fight me, he'll be pushed out of the way. But whatever happens, I will have the knowledge he has collected about the Reapers, and I will use it to fight them. At least I hope the game will give me that chance. That was the stratagem the whole time.

You ask me why TIM comes after Shepard specifically. My answer is: I do not know! None of the possible scenarios make any sense. Every single one, including yours, runs into contradictions with established events. So rather than re-interpret the facts in a horribly implausible way like you I'll wait for new facts to emerge.  There is no "only logical conclusion" because we do not know enough to make one! 

[quote]Also I do not think TIM indoctrinated his own faction in order to counteract Reaper indoctrination. It doesnt make sense.[/quote]
Indeed, it doesn't. My hypothesis is that he indoctrinated his troops to keep them loyal to him  (instead of, for instance, the Alliance). It's absolutely in character for him, and it does make sense.

[quote]There is one other hypothesis to TIM's and Cerberus' actions:

When TIM was affected by the Reaper artifact he got a glimpse of the comming destruction much like with the prothean warnings. He however does not see a possibility of humanity surviving the comming War with the Reapers as we are. He deduces that the only way to defeat the Reapers is if humanity intigrates Reaper technology into our species. However humanity must not become them. Humanity must do it on its own terms. Which would explain TIM's experimentation on Paul Grayson from a different point of view logically. TIM still sees that Commander Shepard would oppose such a direction for humanity and decides to go after him.[/quote]
I see this as a possible motivation. In that case, I want an option for my Shepard to agree with him. The thing is, you're assuming that this is inherently undesirable because Reaper technology is "evil". I, on the other hand, think it's just technology, and if it does enable us to survive on our own terms (note the emphasis) then this is preferrable to surviving - if you can call it that - as a Reaper. I can see no reason why Shepard would necessarily be opposed to that.

Which is where this scenario runs into problems: if you kept the Collector base, there is no reason why TIM wouldn't at least ask Shepard for his support before becoming his enemy. So even if this is TIM's motivations, there must be more to it.

You see: again, we run into contradictions. I can only repeat: we don't know enough. Most of the proposed scenarios are possible if you add a twist here and there - but there is no sign of such twists. Certainly there's not enough to conclude with any confidence that one scenario is to be preferred over the others.

Edit:
You might also want to read Lotion Soronnar's reply above.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 26 août 2011 - 09:06 .

[Dave of Canada]

Just answering this brief point.

Omega4RelayResident wrote...

Collector base is loaded with Reaper tech... not once have we as the players run into Reaper tech that is not capable of Indoctrination.

In-game:
Ignoring all the Reaper technology which doesn't indoctrinate, any indoctrination device active on the Collector Base would hinder any purpose it would serve. Nobody is supposed to be on the station except Collectors, which aren't indoctrinated, and anybody who would be indoctrinated would eventually become a drooling idiot who believes impaling themselves is the greatest thing in the world.

In addition to this, with how Cerberus operates and the way cells works, you'd never have the entire base being examined by one team and the leader (TIM) would never be directly exposed to the technology at his facility. Different teams research different aspects of the base in isolated facilities and if they were to become indoctrinated in a hypothetical scenario, any potential knowledge gained against the Reapers is greater than giving them 20-30 people (scientists / security) servants. Unless you believe it's better to deal with everybody becoming indoctrinated after they arrive.

We're also going to have to deal with Reaper tech eventually, the Reaper corpses if we win the war aren't going to suddenly disappear. Might as well research it when the knowledge is actually helpful.

Metagame:
TIM and Cerberus seem perfectly content researching the Collector Base in Retribution, they don't seem intent on worshipping machines.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 26 août 2011 - 09:25 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

alperez wrote...

Just to be clear to you, simply stating an opposing opinion doesn't disprove an argument, yet constantly you do so and somehow claim that this proves your argument correct.

Your argument that the possibility something exists proves that it does exist is the most baseless ridicolous argument i've ever read, its possible that anything exists simply stating it without evidence to back it up doesn't prove anything.

In this case, the possiblity of councilor A forcing/influencing councilor B to do something clearly proves the systems flaws. Loopholes exist. Period.

Disparity of power exists. It's been shown within the game multiple times. Power is power is influence is politics.

[Omega4RelayResident]

Whoah Whoah Whoah.... Yup a full blown human based Reaper doesnt count as Reaper tech... you are right Lotion... ROFL. Did you even play the game? Since Protheans were geneticaly transformed by ________ (fill in the blank) we can safely assume the entire place is based on Reaper tech in some form. Oh yeah... BTW... "ASSUMING CONTROL!"... not Reaper tech at all... AT ALL! (God I hope the sarcasm comes through there)... and ME2 confirmed husks are made with Reaper tech and not Collector or Geth tech. There were Husks on the Collector Base.... any more F****** proof needed?

When? When have we ever run into reaper tech that did not Indoctrinate? Do not confuse Prothean and Reaper tech. Every side quest in ME1 that showed signs of Reaper Tech resulted in Husks in some abandoned Mine. The remains of Sovereign on the Citadel do not count because Sovereign was so obliterated that it showed no evidence of activity. The Citadel Council said that there was nothing found that would point out that Sovereign was not Geth tech. Do not involve the Citadel it self or the Mass Relays... the reason why they do not indoctrinate was explained in ME1 and if you use those for your argument means you have no clue what you are talking about.

That is totally different than a damaged and dissabled Reaper floating in the gravitational pull of a Brown Dwarf... which did indoctrinate every single person in the Cerberus scout mission. That Reaper was not blown into complete obliteration. It was merely no longer actively functional. In ME: Revelation Dr. Quian and Saren were indoctrinated in that book by an aftifact that was directly linked to Sovereign... a.k.a. "Nazara". Did you download Arrival? All Reaper artifacts are capable of Idoctrination... bottomline. If you dissagree with that you need to re-read the books and re-play the game. Just go and replay Arrival, or the Abandoned Mine in the Minos Wasteland cluster and you will see. Any tech that still works also indoctrinates... it is only safe to study once you blow it all to hell like with Sovereign... but then it is no longer recognizable as a Reaper unfortunately. Just advanced Geth tech acording to the Council.

I am not the kind of person that blindly jumps into bull****. I like to think of all the posibilities. Thinking of ALL possible reasons behind the motivation of Cerberus and TIM is not something I need to be criticized over. I am sure that what really is the motivation is something none of us have thought of yet. So at this moment I would like to say I am happy I can have a civil debate with Ieldra2..... but Lotion Soronnar you can go die in a fire you forum troll. Your behavior is uncalled for. As far as "bringing back Shep to kill all individuals that threaten the Reapers because he can rally them all together" theory... IT HAS BEEN DONE BEFORE! D.C. had Cyborg rally any and all of the Superman replacements for the resurrection of the true Superman... just so he could kill them all in one shot. Its not out of the realm of possibilities but yes it is also very unlikely. Other comic books and stories have done things similarly.

God its apparently a sin to argue what COULD be with out actually saying that it in FACT IT IS. Stating possibilities is all. If you can not say that something is possible even though it is unlikely all it means is that you are closed minded.

No where did BioWare state that TIM is NOT indoctrinated. They are just letting us go on with our assumptions. The fact that you stated that he is not indoctrinated as a fact means I should not waste any more time with the likes of you Lotion Soronnar. I listen to Ieldra2 when he says that "we do not know!" We dont know anything yet. Everything we do here on this forum so far is speculation.

Who knows maybe Cerberus found a Reaper artifact near their main military arm of their faction and all the soldiers are now out of TIM's control comming after Shepard. That is also a possibility. However it also makes me wonder why TIM did not better prepare his forces against indoctrination. There has to be something.

The only reason I am fixated on the eyes is because Saren's eyes also glowed blue. At this point in the story I am inclined to shoot anything with glowing eyes. LOL Its a repetative pattern throughout the lore... Husks, Saren, Harbinger's "Assuming Control" (these were yellow), so you cant exactly effing blame me for wanting to put a bullet in between TIM's glowing baby blues... even if it is just to be sure.

EDI is updated with anti-reaper algorythms. These prevent her from becoming indoctrinated and allow her to effectively combat Reapers with her cyber-warfare suites. She has no Reaper tech built into her... if she did we would never need a mission to loacate the Reaper IFF. Congrats you just failed the common sense test Lotion. You want to be a d**k to me and I will do so in response to you. The research for EDI was done during the book ME: Retribution and a portion of the research came from the tests done on Paul Grayson... I dont remember where the rest of the research came from.

Once again I will reiterate that we have never ran into "functioning" Reaper artifacts that did not indoctrinate somehow. That is fact.

Sources: ME1, ME: Revelation, ME2, ME: Retribution

As for the Reaper artifact found by Jack Harper before he became TIM... BioWare has not yet confirmed nor denied wether or not TIM is indoctrinated... they are hinting that he may be indoctrinated or he may not... bottom line. I personally "feel" he is indoctrinated... but I can not be logically certain.

I hear you Ieldra2 on all of your points... the sad part is the more the both of us hypothesize the more questions pop up. Which isnt so bad... it means we are looking at this from all angles.

Go die in a fire Lotion. You are worthless to me.

Modifié par Omega4RelayResident, 27 août 2011 - 08:34 .

[Omega4RelayResident]

Dont waste your time on Lotion alperez.... hes a d**k. Enough said.

Oh and as far as the Assassination point Lotion... yup collectors sighted on Illium, Omega, Citadel, Migrant Fleet killing off all of Shepards comerades..... NO THAT WOULD NOT TIP ANYONE OFF ABOUT SHEPARD BEING RIGHT!!!!!!!! LIKE EVER!.....

Citadel Salarian Councilor: Wait all of Shepard's old comerades were killed? By the collectors?

Citadel Asari Councilor: Yes... odd coincidence? Maybe not... and they all believed in what Shepard was saying all along.

Citadel Turian Councilor: THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS REAPERS!

Other Two Councilors in unison: WILL YOU STFU!

... on the other hand if they all dissapeared... or at least most of them dissapeared beyond the Omega 4 Relay the council would just accredit that to the fact that it is unmapped and that they knew the risks knowing no ship has ever come back from a trip through there.

Modifié par Omega4RelayResident, 27 août 2011 - 08:37 .

[Kaiser Shepard]

Seems like the Collector Base discussion has finally come to a complete halt, so I suppose it's time to switch to another topic of discussion. What is it going to be? The Genophage? Project Overlord? The geth?

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 29 août 2011 - 01:05 .

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Seems like the Collector Base discussion has finally come to a complete halt, so I suppose it's time to switch to another topic of discussion. What is it going to be? The Genophage? Project Overlord? The geth?

I think Overlord,between between playing god (again) and using an autistic man against his will for perverted science,the debate shall bring this thread to new heights!


Or depths depending on how you're looking at it....


Or we could just talk about Cerberus,that would be fun

"we didn't spend two years bringing you back to second guess you, so pardon me while I second guess your every move."

Modifié par Humanoid_Typhoon, 29 août 2011 - 01:10 .

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

HomelessGal wrote...

I say we try and get an Overlord discussion going. I'm sure with this group it'll be entertaining.

'It was for the good of mankind you are so stupid!!!!!!!!!!!! How are we going to establish human dominance if everyone is running around with all this 'free will' crap."



/sarcasm.

Modifié par Humanoid_Typhoon, 29 août 2011 - 01:12 .

[Seboist]

Paragons enjoy watching a million mothers mourn the loss of a million sons. You people disgust me.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Seboist wrote...

Paragons enjoy watching a million mothers mourn the loss of a million sons. You people disgust me.

....Loving the sarcasm.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

HomelessGal wrote...

On a general Cerberus note, I am hoping there's more to Invasion than "another Cerberus experiment went wrong lol". That's, uh, precisely what it looks to be in the preview, but four issues seems a bit much for a story about Aria and her thugs killing weird monsters. Plus Walters has mentioned will be getting a bit more insight into Cerberus' plans, so I'm hoping the outbreak is wholly intentional or at the very least Cerberus decides to capitalize on the incident.

Would be cool to see a Cerberus experiment go right... "Hey TIM,we successfully created tobacco flavored coffee,and no one got killed to death!"

[Someone With Mass]

Seboist wrote...

Paragons enjoy watching a million mothers mourn the loss of a million sons. You people disgust me.

And Renegades would just make up pathetic excuses for it.

[Seboist]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Paragons enjoy watching a million mothers mourn the loss of a million sons. You people disgust me.

And Renegades would just make up pathetic excuses for it.

There's no excuse to be made. We save lives while you waste 'em.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Overlord it is, then.

[Someone With Mass]

Seboist wrote...
There's no excuse to be made. We save lives while you waste 'em.

Right...how many died aboard the Destiny Ascension again?